Proposition 8: Good or Bad?

[JediMaster12]

I have been listening to the radio discussions and the television adverts about the now infamous/famous Proposition 8.

 

For those that don't know, Proposition 8 deals with the banning of gay marriage. From my own recall, it sprang up shortly after the courts here in California declared same sex marriage legal.

 

I have heard arguments from both sides of the issue. The one on the no side that I recall very well was the television add of the woman being prevented from marrying the man she loved. Radio and television announcements from the yes side paint a different picture...

 

So the well-financed and savvy backers of Proposition 8 have produced waves of advertising aimed instead at making voters believe that supporters of same-sex marriage are intent on stripping away everyone else's rights, and that this ballot measure is the only way for traditionally religious people to retain them.

 

With the defeat of this proposed ban on gay marriage, they say, schools would begin indoctrinating children as young as kindergartners to be wholehearted supporters of such marriages. The ads point to the case of a Massachusetts teacher reading the picture book "King and King," about a gay royal wedding.

I have seen this fear about schools being forced to teach same sex marriage, etc. I have seen statements that it is a moral decline, etc. Frankly this issue is a hotbed, at least in my family.

 

What I am curious about is whether or not members here agree with the proposition or not. Just a reminder that this is not topic to insult people with. I for one have the privilege of two gay friends who recently got married and are enjoying a happy life together.

 

Also, here is the link for the passage I quoted. Opinions?

[El Sitherino]

It is neither right nor privilege for any government to persecute it's citizens based on personal morals and ideology. It is the right of every (wo)man to pursue life without impeding on another. If they are doing no personal harm there can be no crime, therefore nothing to prohibit.

 

There was a time and place in the US where people understood and accepted this ideal.

[jawathehutt]

I cant think of a single good reason for this law, it would be like banning special education because people who need it decide to be mentally disabled when they enter school.

[Yar-El]

I have seen this fear about schools being forced to teach same sex marriage, etc. I have seen statements that it is a moral decline, etc. Frankly this issue is a hotbed, at least in my family.

 

What I am curious about is whether or not members here agree with the proposition or not. Just a reminder that this is not topic to insult people with. I for one have the privilege of two gay friends who recently got married and are enjoying a happy life together.

 

Also, here is the link for the passage I quoted. Opinions?

Do we have a right to limit someone's freewill? No. Who created the concept of marriage? Religion or government? I don't know this answer. Religious types of marriages should be maintained through religious laws. Government types of marriages should be maintained through government laws. Religion is about a god's judgement on how a person acts under freewill. Goverment is about a society's judgement on how a person acts under freewill. I can live with the idea of gay marriages; however, I will not support the act as something moral. I do want people to have choices; thus, they can be judged by how they act through their religous means. Supressing the freedom of choice is a horrible idea. Let them have the choice to turn right or left. I don't have the authority to judge people. Let people be judged by their god, and let everyone else stay out of the process.

 

I don't want my future children to learn about gay marriages through schooling. We need to keep this responsibility in the hands of parents.

[jonathan7]

This is a pre-emptive warning - this thread is being monitored very closely, it is better to err on the side of caution and if you are unsure of the nature of a post, please PM one of the mods to check - You are allowed to express your opinions, but do so in a tactful, and respectful manner, homophobia will not, however, be tolerated. You may argue against gay marriage, but do not insult people who are gay.

 

For those of a religious persuasion who I presume will argue against this, I would like to refer you both to my signature, and if you are a Christian consider that Jesus took the Gospel to all people, and told us not to judge...

[JediMaster12]

Thanks for the added warning jonathan7- JM12

 

For those who don't know, my politics are based upon the Constitution and the Declartion of Independence. Of course I have to obey the statutes imposed by my beloved state otherwise I get the jail cell.

 

I have a strong belief that we are free to choose to be how we want to be and how to live our lives. I always hear the phrases that it was the person's choice and they have to live with it. Heck even in our beloved KOTOR game is the word choice(s) mentioned. Choice is obviously a law of nature unto which people have a right to.

 

I am not going to sugar coat this but the subject of gay marriage is one that has me pitted in a silent war against my family. The reason I say silent is because I never voice my opinion for the reason that I will get the Are you pagan lecture which I have had on other occassions. I do believe that people who love each other should be together. To deny them that is very much like slavery, to put it in a crude form.

 

As I stated before I have two friends from the GLBT community that recently got married when same sex marriage was legalized. I was happy for them. They are the nicest people I know of and I can think why two people like them should be denied the right to be legal. I have others from the GLBT community that have gotten married and I am happy for them. Call me a coward for not standing up to my family but I know what they are like and the ball is really not in my court.

 

As to the whole thing about teaching same sex marriage in our schools, let me point out another part of the same article that I was reading. It made a very interesting point about what is required by law for public education.

 

Under SB 71, which passed in 2003, the Legislature set out the framework for comprehensive sex education, which includes the brief reference to marriage from which these dire Proposition 8 warnings are drawn: "Instruction and materials shall teach respect for marriage and committed relationships." Schools aren't required to teach comprehensive sex education, but if they do, this is one of many rules they must follow. The law also gives schools the option of discussing gender, sexual orientation and family life, though that's not required as part of the more comprehensive program. -- LATimes[/Quote]

The law specifically says respect for marriage and committed relationships. There really is no line that says what the conditions are. Also it is optional for the sexual orientation, etc and parents do have the option of viewing the material.

 

Quite frankly I saw the fear factor the pros for prop 8 were using a mile away. The fear factor I admit is a good tactic but I personally don't like how it is being used. It reminds me of the immigration debate.

[True_Avery]

I don't exactly see why it needs to be taught in schools. Seems like an odd thing to do, personally. I guess for education purposes, having them less ignorant of it is a good thing but still... odd. I guess it fits into the same category as sex education, as in needing to be age appropriate for the situation. If it was just to get kids to realize that we exist, I can appreciate that.

 

But, people are still afraid of acceptance of those different from themselves so I can see why people would want their kids to be terrified and hateful towards us. Gotta have someone to beat up during recess, right? *sighs*

 

Anyway, on Prop 8...

 

Its been getting sizable contributions from Utah and various churches, so we're outclassed as far as money goes... People have been locking themselves in churches on shifts for 24/7 praying that it passes, so the faith vote probably isn't in favor of us... And Cali has already passed "bans" before, so we have history against us as well...

 

I dunno... I give it 90% chance of passing, even if only by a 49/51% margin.

 

And, frankly, I've come to terms with that. I have no hope that Prop 8 will be turned down. None at all. We're the cool minority to suppress right now, and people don't like giving up their play thing.

 

When it passes I'm not sure how good the chances are of it going to supreme court are. If it could have gone to supreme, then it would have already. If it could have gone, then prop 8 would never been on the ballet. The fact it had enough support to go to the ballet says enough right there in my opinion.

 

And when it does, our family friend's marriage will become void. Even though we held it last weekend.

 

That's just how it works I guess.

 

People need something to hate and suppress to feel better about their situation. I'm below you, so you must be on top. Basic human psychology.

 

No real point in debating this anyway. If you've made up your mind, then there is no changing it. I wont waste my time or your time, and leave it to the country to decide. Its been made quite obvious that we're currently welcome almost nowhere, as most parts of the world only give us the same privileges out of pity or some loophole in the system.

 

Don't take this as me lashing out at anyone. I'm just a little tired and posting this has left me disenchanted with life right now.

[mimartin]

If it could have gone to supreme, then it would have already.[/Quote] I’m no legal expert, but I believe to take something to the Supreme Court, someone first has to have their right violated by the measure. I don’t believe you can preemptive sue someone, at least yet.

People need something to hate and suppress to feel better about their situation. I'm below you, so you must be on top. Basic human psychology.[/Quote] Not all people. Some people need to build up others so that they feel better about their self that too is basic human psychology.

 

I’m against Proposition 8, I believe everyone is entitled to equal rights under the law.

[Web Rider]

I think the religious aspects of marriage and the legal aspects of marriage out to be seperate. The former just a ceremony with no more legal value than you put in it, and the latter the actual contract that gives you all the grea married benefits.

 

I don't support Prop 8, and that's about all there is to it.

[Q]

People need something to hate and suppress to feel better about their situation. I'm below you, so you must be on top. Basic human psychology.

While I agree with you that that's how it is, it's always sounded like basic animal psychology to me. Or basic parasite psychology.

[Arcesious]

I find it saddening that the rights of human beings are still being decided by votes. The appeal to majority and appeal to authority fallacies are destroying us economically, militarily, environmentally, and constitutionally.

[Q]

Yes, because determining our own fate is sooo overrated.

[JediMaster12]

I find it saddening that the rights of human beings are still being decided by votes. The appeal to majority and appeal to authority fallacies are destroying us economically, militarily, environmentally, and constitutionally.

But that is the form of government that we operate by. A government, of the people, by the people, for the people. Nowhere do I see us but not them. Unfortunately there are those who like to split hairs over terminology and it gives everyone a headache.

[Litofsky]

But that is the form of government that we operate by. A government, of the people, by the people, for the people. Nowhere do I see us but not them. Unfortunately there are those who like to split hairs over terminology and it gives everyone a headache.

 

I'm not debating this fact, JM, but I'd like to point out that the majority isn't always right (in fact, the majority has a tendency to act stupidly, i.e. 'mob mentality'). Sure, the government acts for the people, but since when has it truly acted in the best interest of the people (I mean the federal government, in this case)?

 

As for Proposition 8, I really don't care what people do with their bodies, so long as they don't start to infringe upon others. I don't see what the problem, really (other than people are homophobic, or some other reason).

[Arcesious]

Yes, because determining our own fate is sooo overrated.

 

That is your right as an individual. There are problems, and letting the vote decide doesn't work too well.

 

I'll make an analogy.

 

Let's say a celestial object the size of the moon is on a near collision course with Earth. Building the technology to effectively nudge it off course ends up costing say... 10 trillion dollars.

There is a 50/50 chance it will hit. The technology to nudge it off couse could bankrupt the entire economy.

 

So, do we vote and hope it passes or do we take the rational approach and make 100% sure that it doesn't hit us? Either we let it maybe/maybe not hit us, or we spend a lot to nudge it away, because what's better? Being dead or having the chance to rebuild something fixable, like an economy?

 

BTW, the compromisational approach would just as risky as not doing anything at all. (IE, spending 2-5 trillion to build minimal technology to nudge it away.)

 

Now compare that to the Global Destabilization problem and you'll see my point.

 

(I'm not attacking you with this post, that is not my intention.)

[jonathan7]

So, do we vote and hope it passes or do we take the rational approach and make 100% sure that it doesn't hit us? Either we let it maybe/maybe not hit us, or we spend a lot to nudge it away, because what's better? Being dead or having the chance to rebuild something fixable, like an economy?

 

How is this rational? Why have you decided this is rational, why is life so important? If we are nothing but glorified animals best adapted, why shouldn't we go the way of dinosaur and let super-intelligent cock roaches inherit the earth? Besides lets presume you bankrupt the worlds economies, putting the asteroid off course, and a nuclear WW3 descends on us, wiping out billions what have you really achieved?

 

I merely wanted to post a response for you to question your position, you are free to start a new topic, on this subject if you wish - though we don't want to hijack this thread

[Q]

(I'm not attacking you with this post, that is not my intention.)

Oh, I know you're not.

 

So who determines our fate, then? Fewer people? An intellectual elite? A politburo? A monarch? A dictator?

 

NO THANKS.*

 

Congress comes close enough as it is.

 

 

 

 

*Unless, of course, that dictator happens to be me. Then I'd be all for it.

[Corinthian]

Human nature is to survive at any cost. That is why it is rational. And what does World War 3 have to do with averting an asteroid impact?

[Q]

Back on track, yeah.

 

Anywho, as it is a personal freedom issue, of course I'm against the ban on gay marriage. Whether one approves of the lifestyle or not is irrelevant. To ban gay marriage is to impose one's will upon another and that is the definition of oppression.

[Web Rider]

Letting people decide allows us to grow at our own pace, that's IMO, the best argument for giving people the power. If you don't, you end up with growth ala China's "Great Leap Forward", and that was great in the long-run, but pretty nasty to everyone alive at the time. Saying government or nature should dictate what's best for us is just as bad as the appeal to authority that says "God says no!"

 

Anyway, I don't have a problem letting the people decide on Prop 8, it'll do a lot more to shoot down the religious nuts who promote this stuff than having the government do it. Otherwise next election, and the one after that, and after that for 20 years we'll be dealing with this same bill being brought up until the "old guard" finally die off.

 

Hey, it may get passed, but it can still be taken down by Supreme Court ruling if somebody's rights are determined to be violated by it, which IMO, I think we mostly agree that they would.

[JediMaster12]

So WebRider you are virtually saying that history takes too long and is never kind to those trying to hurry it?

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, just trying to grasp your picture here. Somehow though I have the feeling that this issue may be like the age old hatred called racism and we may have to wait until the "old guard" finally die off.

[mimartin]

Somehow though I have the feeling that this issue may be like the age old hatred called racism and we may have to wait until the "old guard" finally die off.

The problem is that some within society constantly create a “new guard” with same old tired hatreds. Unfortunately we pass on our prejudices and our bias to our young. Be it intentional or not.

[Web Rider]

So WebRider you are virtually saying that history takes too long and is never kind to those trying to hurry it?

I dunno, it's the internet, everything is virtual.

 

Seriously though, yeah, I am saying that it's better to let it go slowly, but more to the point, what I'm saying is that it's best to let a society progress at the rate it's people feel comfortable with. Mao did some great stuff for China, just as Stalin did by bringing an essentially farming nation into world power status very quickly. But it certainly wasn't a kind transition on the people.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, just trying to grasp your picture here. Somehow though I have the feeling that this issue may be like the age old hatred called racism and we may have to wait until the "old guard" finally die off.

Yup, that's been one of the biggest setbacks to the gay-rights movements, is that they have often pushed too hard and wanted too quickly, and they are getting quite the backlash for it.

 

EDIT: and seriously, this KOTOR MMO stuff has to be the fault behind why half forum doesn't load sometimes.

[Jae Onasi]

Topic is proposition 8. I have deleted several posts entirely unrelated to proposition 8, including, but not limited to, the Kotor MMO, which as far as I know, has absolutely nothing to do with Californians voting on gay marriage. The Kotor MMO forum is here if you need to discuss the game further. Please stay on topic. Thanks.

[True_Avery]

Yup, that's been one of the biggest setbacks to the gay-rights movements, is that they have often pushed too hard and wanted too quickly, and they are getting quite the backlash for it.

Agreed.

 

I'm with you on letting society take it pace. I'm content that it'll happen eventually, but rushing it would be unwise. Not that it wouldn't be great to see it happen, but as you've pointed out rushing a society into something never seems to turn out as planned.

 

Actually, rushing it into court is what most likely got Prop 8 on the ballet in the first place. So, we may have stabbed ourselves in the boot there to be perfectly honest.