Proposition 8: Good or Bad?

[Arcesious]

Darth Insidious: My post was not directed at you, not to mention that your posts here show that you understand what the Bible is meant to mean quite well. I was saying that I would debate about religion in another thread if anyone wanted to, because if I do in this thread, I would be taking about metaphysics and whatnot, which is off topic in this thread.

[El Sitherino]

Well, Marriage happens to be a rather religious institution in general. The Feds telling us, any of us, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever, what we can or can't do with our ceremonies is bloody ridiculous. You're the ones who keep whining about the separation of Church and State. Does that go out the window when it isn't convenient?

 

You can have this thing, I think they call it a marriage that doesn't involve religion. I hear they've been doing that since before the Hittites.

 

Also churches are, have, and will always be allowed to say "NO fags" when they come asking for a minister to marry them.

[EnderWiggin]

The Bible also says this:

 

Hello? That was my point. The bible says some pretty odd things that we certainly don't agree with nowadays, what's to say that homosexuality isn't another?

 

 

Homosexuality is like any other sin. Ask God for repentance, and you shall recieve it. That is an entirely different discussion though, and I don't think that we should really get into that because it is off topic.

Except for the part that it's a sin, sure.

Here's some bible for you, buddy:

Do not judge, lest you be judged; for so as you judge, so shall you be judged.

Take that.

You misunderstand what I am saying. I do not agree with homosexuality. I respect homosexual people just as much as heterosexual people. Homosexuals are not any different than you or I.

 

Ok, so you don't agree with them. That doesn't entitle you to take away their rights. You said yourself that you think homosexuals are not any different from any of us; yet we should be allowed to marry and they should not?

Normally when someone votes they agree or disagree with/who they happen to be voting for.

 

Except when the law is unjust, as I've tried to explain. Ergo, the law should have been voted against by everyone (except bigots) because even if you disagree with their choice you should still be able to recognize their humanity, respect them for it, and afford them the same rights as we have.

 

I do not believe that I am misinterpreting the Bible.

 

_EW_

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I said that I was happy to see that it passed. Just as you are not happy that it passed.

so how is that being respectful?

[Corinthian]

So, basically, Ender, what you're saying is that we should pick and choose among the Bible for parts that we agree with? Just ignore anything that doesn't suit your worldview?

 

Classy.

[EnderWiggin]

You can have this thing, I think they call it a marriage that doesn't involve religion. I hear they've been doing that since before the Hittites.

 

Also churches are, have, and will always be allowed to say "NO fags" when they come asking for a minister to marry them.

 

Oh snap!

 

Darth Insidious: My post was not directed at you, not to mention that your posts here show that you understand what the Bible is meant to mean quite well. I was saying that I would debate about religion in another thread if anyone wanted to, because if I do in this thread, I would be taking about metaphysics and whatnot, which is off topic in this thread.

 

You didn't seem to answer my question as to whether or not you're directing it at me. snipped flamebait --Jae

_EW_

 

 

EDIT::

So, basically, Ender, what you're saying is that we should pick and choose among the Bible for parts that we agree with? Just ignore anything that doesn't suit your worldview?

 

Classy.

 

No, I'm saying we shouldn't rely on the diction in the bible in order to prove our bigoted points.

The Bible's a book. Written by humans. With a human bias.

 

Obviously we no longer believe slavery is morally acceptable, but it is in the bible. Perhaps we shouldn't let the bible dictate morality?

[Samuel Dravis]

marriage is also a legal institution

Exactly. If you don't want marriage available to everyone, then rename your state's legal institution of marriage to something else. Saying that the government can grant a certain contract to some and not others by mere fact of their gender is absolutely unacceptable.

[Rogue Nine]

The Bible also says this:

Yeah, and do you agree with what the Bible says in the verses I quoted? I demand an answer on this.

 

Homosexuality is like any other sin.

Fine, homosexuals are sinners, yadda yadda whatever. Does that mean you get to take away their rights?

 

I respect homosexual people just as much as heterosexual people. Homosexuals are not any different than you or I.

Then why do you agree with taking their rights away?

 

Snipped flame --Jae

 

Sin is Sin. God doesn't make fine distinctions there.

Fine, by that logic, no one should have the right to marry because we're all sinners and not deserving of that right.

 

Well, Marriage happens to be a rather religious institution in general. The Feds telling us, any of us, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever, what we can or can't do with our ceremonies is bloody ridiculous. You're the ones who keep whining about the separation of Church and State. Does that go out the window when it isn't convenient?

Excuse me, but marriage is also a legal term. It is completely possible to have a marriage in a town hall completely devoid of any religious affiliation. Again, you religious people don't get to keep marriage to yourselves.

 

So, basically, Ender, what you're saying is that we should pick and choose among the Bible for parts that we agree with? Just ignore anything that doesn't suit your worldview?

 

Classy.

That's what most Christians do today, FYI.

[Corinthian]

They're there for a reason.

 

And God doesn't say 'Get you a slave' he says 'Take slaves from the others'. Implying 'not from your brethren. Our modern sensibilities get offended by any mention of slavery, but this moral indignation coming from the liberals who are big on moral relativity and such is rather rich.

[Arcesious]

I do not believe that I am misinterpreting the Bible.

 

I didn't say you did. I said that EW and R9 did.

 

Also, Jmac, that argument of ridicule towards Rev7 about slaves seemed rather tasteless...

 

Edit: Jeesh the debate going too fast to keep up with all of the posts.

 

EW, this is what seemd out of context:

 

The bible also says:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leviticus 19:27

Don't cut your hair nor shave.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone with a different religion.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leviticus 19:19

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric.

[EnderWiggin]

They're there for a reason.

Sorry, could you elucidate to us commonfolk what that reason is? I'm not to clear on it.

 

_EW_

[Emperor Devon]

I do not believe

 

yeah that really counts for a lot

[Corinthian]

The Old Testament is basically a codex of laws. As well as a history and a religious text. Everything written in it serves one or more of those purposes. I can't exactly tell you what the parts about murder, war, and slavery are about without a little bit of context - the Bible is a pretty big book and not exactly pulp.

 

Snipped--if the post is offensive, just report it instead. --Jae

[Darth InSidious]

snipped

 

And I'm still waiting for this masterful dissertation of yours.

[EnderWiggin]

I didn't say you did. I said that EW and R9 did.

 

Wow, even though you agree with us, you still feel like arguing bible meanings with us.

 

I'll repeat:

I'm quite aware of what the context was of what I wrote, and I didn't misinterpret it. Interesting that you could make a normative claim on my understanding, though.

 

I'm a Christian - and a better one than you, to be honest. Not really an insult, just an understanding that God isn't fond of atheists.

 

As for what I comprehend about the bible, the verses I wrote were to make a point. The fact that you went ahead and insulted me for no apparent reason, and called me ignorant even though you actually have no real clue as to what I know about Bible verses is kind of disappointing. And then, to top it off by insinuating that you do understand the native greek and hebrew is so arrogant that I wish they had a stronger word for it.

 

Also, Jmac, that argument of ridicule towards Rev7 about slaves seemed rather tasteless...

 

And yet it was directly relevant.

 

_EW_

[Rev7]

Hello? That was my point. The bible says some pretty odd things that we certainly don't agree with nowadays, what's to say that homosexuality isn't another?

You put out there that the Bible says not to shave, kill anyone with a different religion, not wear clothes with more than one fabric. And the thing about pork. None of that is relevent to the topic.

Do not judge, lest you be judged; for so as you judge, so shall you be judged.

Have you not judged me for what I think is right and wrong Ender? I am not judging, I am stating what the Bible says, and what I think. I don't think that this constitutes as judging someone.

Ok, so you don't agree with them. That doesn't entitle you to take away their rights. You said yourself that you think homosexuals are not any different from any of us; yet we should be allowed to marry and they should not?

I have not taken away their rights. I do not live in California, and even if I did, I would not be allowed to vote.

 

Except when the law is unjust, as I've tried to explain. Ergo, the law should have been voted against by everyone (except bigots) because even if you disagree with their choice you should still be able to recognize their humanity, respect them for it, and afford them the same rights as we have.

Am I being a bigot? I am not being intolerant of homosexuals. According to my religion, homosexuality is a sin, and I do not want people to sin, so I do not agree with homosexuality.

[Arcesious]

yes we're all horrible people for thinking slavery is wrong

 

Funny thing how Christians helped quite a bit with the civil rights movement back when brown skin color was considered to make a person unequal to a white person.

[El Sitherino]

Everyone is missing the point. You can't ban gay marriage, you can however oppose supporting it.

 

 

So don't marry the gays.

[Corinthian]

Funny, I think they just DID ban Gay Marriage.

[Nedak]

Funny thing how Christians helped quite a bit with the civil rights movement back when brown skin color was considered to make a person unequal to a white person.

 

Aren't you forgetting something important?

 

I'll give you a hint.

 

THE KKK

[El Sitherino]

Funny, I think they just DID ban Gay Marriage.

 

Pffft, and that'll last 6 months. Then they'll get it back, people will have another hissy fit. Something with Ellen will happen and we'll all do the same thing over and over again.

[Q]

Everyone is missing the point. You can't ban gay marriage, you can however oppose supporting it.

 

 

So don't marry the gays.

/thread.

[Rogue Nine]

You put out there that the Bible says not to shave, kill anyone with a different religion, not wear clothes with more than one fabric. And the thing about pork. None of that is relevent to the topic.

You were the one who said he does what the Bible tells him. It doesn't make sense that you disapprove of gays because the Bible tells you they're unnatural but doesn't do a variety of other things the Bible tells you to. Which means you're just using the Bible to cover your cherry-picking You're a mod--if you're going to enforce flaming rules, then don't flame --Jae.

 

I have not taken away their rights. I do not live in California, and even if I did, I would not be allowed to vote.

But you agreed with California voters taking away their rights.

[Jae Onasi]

Take a break tonight, folks. I've dealt with no less than 12 reported messages/posts and 15 PMs on mod stuff today, and I'd like to actually go do something fun besides moderate a bunch of people yelling at each other. I'll look this over and re-open tomorrow after the caca has been dealt with.

[Jae Onasi]

I have spent the last hour and a half cleaning up this thread, deleting stupid irrelevant posts and handing out warning cards for blatant flaming and spamming.

 

I am utterly appalled by the atrocious behavior here from people on both sides of this very controversial subject.

 

If I see any more flaming, including calling each other names (and calling someone a 'bigot' is a flame, and just as judgmental as the action you think is judgmental) or telling people to shut up, you WILL receive the 5 point flaming infraction. People are entitled to agree or disagree with homosexuality as long as it's done respectfully.

 

If I see any more posts about slavery or idiotic off-topic posts (including my favorite "I'm making a post to tell you I'm not making a post"), you WILL receive the 5 point infraction for blatant spam.

 

If I need to moderate this thread further because people can't act like adults and discuss the topic without swearing at each other, flaming, or spamming, I'm not going to waste my time anymore, I'm going to lock it permanently. I have zero patience for more crap in this thread, and despite my instincts to keep it locked, I'm going to re-open it. Don't abuse my trust in you all, please.