Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?

[Tommycat]

The only one that we KNOW survives the events of TSL is HK. He somehow found his way to Mustafart where his "mind" was trapped in an old republic ship.

 

I kinda wish they would have set it only 500bby. That way it leaves thousands of years of history to discover. hehe we might even see the Millenium Falcon new(joke on how old the 1300 is).

[Web Rider]

Then this is not KOTOR at all. This means that you've proven my point. Anyone who wanted KOTOR III will find that Lucasarts has given them something completely different.

Lets break down "Knights of the Old Republic"

 

The "Old Republic" refers to everything up until the formation of the Empire, the Fall of the Empire and the rise of the New Republic. Therefore, technically, Anakin and Mace were Jedi Knights of the old republic. In our specific context, the "old republic" is the republic 3000-4000 years before "current events".

 

So if you are a Jedi or Sith knight during the times of the old republic, then you are a "knight of the old republic". While this may not fit the feel of the game, the name itsself is techically correct in application.

 

Different from what we're used to? Sure it is. Unfitting? not really.

 

They haven't fixed the old problem before they started the new one.

True, they have not, but lets face it, a LOT of content was cut from K2, and that's like making a sequel to a movie that didn't have a conclusion to it's own events. It really doesn't work. Because of the cuts to K2, it really killed the ability of K3 to exist without massive repairs to the K2 storyline.

 

 

No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. That's a bit arrogant for you to claim your opinion is worth so much.

No, there are a few who agree with me. The majority? I don't claim that. You asked/stated that no KOTOR fan would want the Exile and Revan dead, I stated, as a KOTOR fan, that I am glad they are dead. I merely stated my opinion of their state of being because you offered up the challenge.

 

edit: man my writing has been shoddy of late.

[redrob41]

I thought that the whole reason that Bioware created KotOR in the first place was because they wanted all the lightsabers, force powers, blasters & droids, etc, but without all the restrictions of holding to the movie time period. By placing thier story 4000 odd years in the past, they could start fresh. The same is true for TOR, by setting it 300 years after TSL, they have more freedom to bring in new characters and story plots.

 

As for a MMO, I'll have to wait and see how they do it before I judge it. I personnally prefer to play games with great stories. I like reading, and games are like an interactive novel to me. We just need to hear more info...

[RyuuKage]

I thought that the whole reason that Bioware created KotOR in the first place was because they wanted all the lightsabers, force powers, blasters & droids, etc, but without all the restrictions of holding to the movie time period. By placing thier story 4000 odd years in the past, they could start fresh. The same is true for TOR, by setting it 300 years after TSL, they have more freedom to bring in new characters and story plots.

 

except that the prime story plot, the emergence of the True Sith and their empire, is nothing less than a continuance of what began in the KOTOR series (K1, K2, and the comics). The difference is that now most if not all of the characters are gone, so their story isn't complete. They just drop off the galactic record with no explanation. Sure the overarching story continues, but what about the personal stories for which it served as a background? Even the main factions are very different or completely gone.

 

Hopefully the comic or a novel sheds some light on what happened in the Unknown Regions, both before and after the Jedi Civil War.

[redrob41]

The difference is that now most if not all of the characters are gone, so their story isn't complete. They just drop off the galactic record with no explanation. Sure the overarching story continues, but what about the personal stories for which it served as a background? Even the main factions are very different or completely gone.

 

Yeah, I know how it is to have favourite characters, only to have their story end suddenly. We always want to know what they're up to, how they're doing, like they were old friends.

 

In the end though, history usually only remembers the main protagonists, not the supporting characters.

[RyuuKage]

Yeah, I know how it is to have favourite characters, only to have their story end suddenly. We always want to know what they're up to, how they're doing, like they were old friends.

 

In the end though, history usually only remembers the main protagonists, not the supporting characters.

 

that's what I'm saying though. Revan, the Exile: they ARE the main protagonists, and they've been swept off the board almost as if they were never there. I can see not talking much about, say, Mission and Zaalbar. But what about Admiral Carth Onasi? Canderous Ordo, now Mandalore the Preserver? What about Atton Rand and the other turned-Jedi companions of the Exile who had to rebuild the Jedi Order basically from scratch? Where's Bastila, one of few, if any, original Jedi who survived besides the Exile and Revan?

 

All I'm saying is that key historical events and figures seem to have been utterly forgotten. Hell, there's not even any mention of what Revan or the Exile even did in the Unknown Regions.

[Tommycat]

Ya know the thing is, Revan. One man going against the True Sith in the unknown regions. Sounds like he was asking for death. The exile heading off after Revan, she should have expected the same fate. Two against an army of True Sith, worlds of True Sith. How would you expect them to survive? Why would you expect them to survive?

 

Really you can thank Avelone for sealing Revan's fate. Of course we might actually get more of their fate in the MMO. Not all great heroes have the greatest of fates. Need I remind people of the swirling destiny story? That Revan also had swirling destiny.... Perhaps he's clogging an injector right now. Well... not now, but perhaps his destiny was to simply delay the inevitable. Dunno, I intend to seek out his story in the MMO. Some took part in the greatest deeds of their lives at the time we played the games. I mean Bastila's greatest accomplishment might have been aiding in the destruction of the Star Forge. Revan and the Exile may have more history, but that history will be what we discover after 300 years.

 

Like Patton, while we may have his biography, most people only remember him for what he did in WWII. Like our founding fathers(of the US) many of them were imprisoned or executed(I think 9 imprisoned 5 executed, or something like that). Nobody cares about what happens to the heroes after they are done being heroes. Well not about the mundane tasks they did after their great accomplishment.

[Katarn84]

TOR is the killing blow to the Kotor franchise, turning any game in an mmo is the fastest way to ruin it.

[SW01]

TOR is the killing blow to the Kotor franchise, turning any game in an mmo is the fastest way to ruin it.

 

A few days ago, I would have whole-heartedly agreed. But BioWare have been clear that this will not be a standard MMO. If they manage to implement half of what they promise, it may be worthwhile.

 

I think in the long run it will depend on the attitudes of those playing. If people set out to ruin it for us, the MMO will, likely, be awful. If everyone plays it properly, who knows?

[Darth_Yuthura]

Ya know the thing is, Revan. One man going against the True Sith in the unknown regions. Sounds like he was asking for death. The exile heading off after Revan, she should have expected the same fate. Two against an army of True Sith, worlds of True Sith. How would you expect them to survive? Why would you expect them to survive?

 

Really you can thank Avelone for sealing Revan's fate. Of course we might actually get more of their fate in the MMO. Not all great heroes have the greatest of fates. Need I remind people of the swirling destiny story? That Revan also had swirling destiny.... Perhaps he's clogging an injector right now. Well... not now, but perhaps his destiny was to simply delay the inevitable. Dunno, I intend to seek out his story in the MMO. Some took part in the greatest deeds of their lives at the time we played the games. I mean Bastila's greatest accomplishment might have been aiding in the destruction of the Star Forge. Revan and the Exile may have more history, but that history will be what we discover after 300 years.

 

Like Patton, while we may have his biography, most people only remember him for what he did in WWII. Like our founding fathers(of the US) many of them were imprisoned or executed(I think 9 imprisoned 5 executed, or something like that). Nobody cares about what happens to the heroes after they are done being heroes. Well not about the mundane tasks they did after their great accomplishment.

 

That was the whole reason the climax after TSL was so intense. We were wondering how these two were going up against impossible odds and expect to win. By giving the Republic 300 years to prepare for the True Sith, it turns impossible odds into a humiliating defeat for the Republic, Revan, and the Exile.

 

By skipping all the story that took place right after KOTOR, then the resolution to the climax just never happened. They killed the story by not resolving the events after TSL with a brilliant resolution. It is THAT which is why fans want KOTOR III, not just a clean slate that skips it all.

[LordOfTheFish]

In all honesty, no, it's not a good name. But the idea behind the game itself is satisfactory to me, at least.

[Burnseyy]

It's still in the old republic, so why shouldn't it be considered the old republic?

 

Anyway, I'd have loved K3 to come out, but this just let's writers like me broaden the story plot. so it's not all bad for me. Personally, I think leaving a cliffhanger like it did was probably the most successful cliffhanger I've ever seen. Some are terribly done, some give too much away. It was nice and ambiguous and mysterious.

 

TOR won't have the same atmosphere as KOTOR, but it's still based in the old republic era, and I loved the themes and such in that era. If I can afford it, I'm definitely buying... I can live with no third KOTOR.

[Yar-El]

TOR won't have the same atmosphere as KOTOR, but it's still based in the old republic era, and I loved the themes and such in that era. If I can afford it, I'm definitely buying... I can live with no third KOTOR.

I don't know about that. Some of those screenshots look very KotORish. BioWare still needs to work on the game; thus, the game elements may move closer to the original.

 

Look at the clothes closely. They look similar to those in KotOR 1; however, the fashion trend was slightly modernized.

[Feagildin]

That was the whole reason the climax after TSL was so intense. We were wondering how these two were going up against impossible odds and expect to win. By giving the Republic 300 years to prepare for the True Sith, it turns impossible odds into a humiliating defeat for the Republic, Revan, and the Exile.

 

By skipping all the story that took place right after KOTOR, then the resolution to the climax just never happened. They killed the story by not resolving the events after TSL with a brilliant resolution. It is THAT which is why fans want KOTOR III, not just a clean slate that skips it all.

 

 

TSL and Obsidian killed the story, imo.

 

And who actually states that Revan went out there to fight the sith and not join them? Hmm? And who says the Exile followed Revan to join him and not to kill him? Hmm. *nods*

[LordOfTheFish]

TSL and Obsidian killed the story, imo.

 

 

TSL? Nah...

[Prime]

And before anyone demands proof of something you already know... don't.

I don't know that LA indicated they were making K3, thus the request for a link. My understanding was that you claimed previously that LA essentially misled people by not developing K3. I asked for a link showing that LA said they were going to make K3 in the first place. You didn't provide one. But let's move on.

 

If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly?

I doubt I can convince you, but for anyone else who is interested, here is my take. Get a coffee.

 

Having the game take place 300 years after KOTOR is a good idea and necessary from both a story and gameplay perspective. On the gameplay side, it allows the freedom for all players to be either a Jedi or a Sith (since let's face it that is what everyone is going to be). The problem with the time frame immediately after TSL is that there is only one Jedi left and a handful of newbies, which doesn't really leave room for 10,000+ Jedi to be running around every corner. Similarly the Sith have declined and the Triumvirate are destroyed, which also doesn't leave much room for the numbers of Sith we are going to be seeing on the servers.

 

That timeframe is, well, limiting. Moving the time frame ahead opens up all the options to players. Most players aren't going to know each other, and with the game <25 years after TSL that wouldn't really make any sense since all Jedi will have to be trained by the Exile and Co, and they simply couldn't have trained that many Jedi in that amount of time. Moving the game 300 years ahead allows for the option of multiple enclaves (player cities?) with many masters and apprentices. Then you can have the option of cool subgroups like the Covenant from the comics, etc. Players want gameplay options, and the timeframe immediately after TSL is limiting, if you are going to stay true to the story.

 

300 years later makes even more sense for the story, IMO. Everyone's personal KOTOR story is either slightly or greatly different from everyone elses'. Are Revan and the Exile male or female? Good or evil? Those simple questions have great consequences for what happens in the game. Carth and Mission may already be dead. Hell, I didn't train any of the Exile's followers to be Jedi. Other players trained all of them. For a game that will at its core a shared experience, how can we have a consistent story that lines up with each player's version? You can't. The only real option in that case is to just pick canon and move from there. But then you are deviating from 80% of what players have experienced previously. So really, what's the point of trying to complete a story that most people didn't have in the first place? Plus, new players that have never played aren't going to care anyway.

 

Another thing I've always argued around here is that it isn't Revan and the Exile the man (or woman) that is important, but their actions and the results of them. Those results are relevant far into the future (say, 300 years? It's a very short timespan in the SW universe, and even well within the lifespans of some species), and not just at the time. The universe players will play in will be that way in part because of what those characters did 300 years previously, but it also allows enough time to have passed so that the details that are dependent on the player can be glossed over. So you can have a game that relates well with the previous games without stepping in its toes.

 

Not knowing every detail about Revan and Co. in no way implies that they failed. Perhaps they were able to stop the imminent threat and prevent the its assault on the Republic at a time when it was at is most vulnerable. Yes, the Sith may have returned at a later time, but that doesn't diminish the possible victory previously. That would be like saying WW1 was a failure because WW2 happened. The point is that having a story 300 years after the games neither lessens or limits Revan's accomplishments, whatever they might be and for whatever reasons.

 

(Before you ask for more proof, then you provide real proof that the majority of KOTOR fans are glad to know Revan and the Exile died and failed)

For starters, how do we know they failed? Secondly, majority or minority doesn't really matter. There have been several polls around here over the years asking if people want to play as Revan, the Exile or some one new, and whether they should continue the story or have something new. The opinions varied greatly. All I'm saying is that many people want many different things from the series.

 

It's only her/his opinion according to your opinion, Pr.

Of course!

 

Then this is not KOTOR at all. This means that you've proven my point. Anyone who wanted KOTOR III will find that Lucasarts has given them something completely different.

 

They haven't fixed the old problem before they started the new one.

But we don't know that. We don't have the story yet! All may be answered yet. We'll have to wait and see.

 

No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. That's a bit arrogant for you to claim your opinion is worth so much.

No he isn't. I feel the same way. And aren't you a pot calling a kettle black here?

 

It is THAT which is why fans want KOTOR III, not just a clean slate that skips it all.

Some fans. Not all fans. If K3 was a SRPG, I'd want a clean slate with a new character then too.

[LordOfTheFish]

How long did it take you to write that?

 

 

Originally Posted by Prime

Some fans. Not all fans. If K3 was a SRPG, I'd want a clean slate with a new character then too.

 

As would I.

[Pikmin]

I really like the idea of having K3 be an MMO(of course I cried for 1/2 days because their

would have been great potential in in seeing what Revan and the exile did.) But now thta i've read the story info available, the videos, the interviews, and the IGN exclusive's I've really come to accept this as the game I've been waiting for since I threw Kreia into the Core of Malachor V.

[Darth_Yuthura]

TSL and Obsidian killed the story, imo.

 

And who actually states that Revan went out there to fight the sith and not join them? Hmm? And who says the Exile followed Revan to join him and not to kill him? Hmm. *nods*

 

That would be incorrect. TSL established the climax and Obsidian wasn't given the TOR project, it was Bioware. So in reality, Bioware killed the Sith Lords' climax with their abomination.

[Pikmin]

I would have liked OE to have been given K3, but 9it does make since to have it come full circle and let the guys who made the first game make the third final one.

[Jae Onasi]

That would be incorrect. TSL established the climax and Obsidian wasn't given the TOR project, it was Bioware. So in reality, Bioware killed the Sith Lords' climax with their abomination.

 

Did someone give you an advance copy of the TOR script? I'd love to know how you know without a doubt that the Sith Lords' climax has been killed by Bioware.

[Darth_Yuthura]

 

Having the game take place 300 years after KOTOR is a good idea and necessary from both a story and gameplay perspective. On the gameplay side, it allows the freedom for all players to be either a Jedi or a Sith (since let's face it that is what everyone is going to be). The problem with the time frame immediately after TSL is that there is only one Jedi left and a handful of newbies, which doesn't really leave room for 10,000+ Jedi to be running around every corner. Similarly the Sith have declined and the Triumvirate are destroyed, which also doesn't leave much room for the numbers of Sith we are going to be seeing on the servers.

 

That timeframe is, well, limiting. Moving the time frame ahead opens up all the options to players. Most players aren't going to know each other, and with the game <25 years after TSL that wouldn't really make any sense since all Jedi will have to be trained by the Exile and Co, and they simply couldn't have trained that many Jedi in that amount of time. Moving the game 300 years ahead allows for the option of multiple enclaves (player cities?) with many masters and apprentices. Then you can have the option of cool subgroups like the Covenant from the comics, etc. Players want gameplay options, and the timeframe immediately after TSL is limiting, if you are going to stay true to the story.

 

-------

 

Not knowing every detail about Revan and Co. in no way implies that they failed. Perhaps they were able to stop the imminent threat and prevent the its assault on the Republic at a time when it was at is most vulnerable. Yes, the Sith may have returned at a later time, but that doesn't diminish the possible victory previously. That would be like saying WW1 was a failure because WW2 happened. The point is that having a story 300 years after the games neither lessens or limits Revan's accomplishments, whatever they might be and for whatever reasons.

 

How exactly does that make the story more dramatic if the Jedi and the Republic are allowed to have the time to rebuild? Do you know why the Battle of Thermopolea is "300 against 1,000,000" instead of history's version of "4500 against 100,000-200,000"? Which would you think is more dramatic? Most people use the 300 Spartans.

 

TOR kills the climax by evening the odds and making it much less dramatic by having 10,000 Jedi and a healed Republic doing the impossible than for a few Jedi and a crippled Republic struggling to survive. 300 years kills all the drama and suspense of TSL.

 

WWII was the result of WWI and could have been prevented if the "peace w/out victory" had been followed completely, or Germany had been obliterated at the end of WWI. Because WWI wasn't properly concluded, it caused another war that was even worse than the first.

 

I don't know that LA indicated they were making K3, thus the request for a link. My understanding was that you claimed previously that LA essentially misled people by not developing K3.

 

"The wait is over." I guess that it wasn't explicit, but a reasonable deduction could be made that it was directed at fans waiting for KOTOR III. I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.

[Tommycat]

"The wait is over." I guess that it wasn't explicit, but a reasonable deduction could be made that it was directed at fans waiting for KOTOR III. I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.

 

Lets see, before the announcement "The Wait is Over" was released, we had enough slips that the MMO project was the project that LA and Bioware were working on. The announcement was the end of the waiting for the worst kept secret in the gaming industry to be announced:D Nowhere did LA or Bioware state explicitly that they were working on KotOR III. Bioware and LA had however stated on numerous occasions that they were not working on KotOR 3. That implies that they were not misleading you, or the fan base. Now if they had somewhere stated that they weer working on KotOR 3 you might have some semblance of a leg to stand on. If anything you misled yourself.

[True_Avery]

I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.

 

I feel I have been very patient with you, Darth_Yuthura.

 

- I gave you a kind reminder to calm down.

- I gave you a warning to cease hostile actions towards others.

- I Infracted you once already for Offensive behavior.

 

You have outright ignored and pushed aside not only my warning and infraction, but the opinions of other members of this forum in favor of your own.

 

Please take a week to cool off. I look forward to posting with you again once you have collected your thoughts.

[Prime]

How exactly does that make the story more dramatic if the Jedi and the Republic are allowed to have the time to rebuild? Do you know why the Battle of Thermopolea is "300 against 1,000,000" instead of history's version of "4500 against 100,000-200,000"? Which would you think is more dramatic? Most people use the 300 Spartans.

Would you be surprised to learn that not once did I consider the numbers to be in any way relevant in how I viewed the ending of TSL? But then again, I think the importance of Revan to TSL is often overstated and it is more a journey of self discovery for the Exile, and much of the info about Revan can be bypassed if the player so chooses. Again, it is the actions and consequences of Revan that matter, not so much the man.

 

TOR kills the climax by evening the odds and making it much less dramatic by having 10,000 Jedi and a healed Republic doing the impossible than for a few Jedi and a crippled Republic struggling to survive. 300 years kills all the drama and suspense of TSL.

I think that is a huge overstatement. Are you saying that the drama and suspense as a result of the culmination of journey of the Exile and the confrontation with the Sith Lords are all of a sudden destroyed because some unknown arbitrary numbers were changed?

 

"The wait is over." I guess that it wasn't explicit, but a reasonable deduction could be made that it was directed at fans waiting for KOTOR III. I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.

The statement was true regardless how how you look at it, really. If you were waiting for confirmation of the KOTOR MMO rumors, you got that. If you were waiting for the announcement regarding the future of the KOTOR franchise, you got that.

 

Saying you were misled because you didn't get specifically what you wanted is not their fault. I'd like a SRPG for K3 too, but in no way did LA ever say they were ever going to do that, where as everything that was leaked for the past year pointed to an MMO. Acting surprised when it actually happens just seems a bit silly.