Mass Effect 2 [thread contains spoilers]

[Achilles]

My comments were in reply to Achilles and his adequate appraisal of Mass Effect 2. I was just remembering his feelings toward the first Mass Effect getting worse and worse the longer he played. The only thing that ruined Mass Effect for me was playing Mass Effect 2.

 

I agree with Sabre, good games should not get annoying; they may get boring after multiple playthrough, but never annoying.

2nd playthrough.

 

It's amazing how easy it can be to pick out which parts were written by new guy and which parts are written by Drew Krapstand.

 

So far I haven't encountered any plot holes that make me want to throw a controller at my TV, but DK's dialogs come pretty close.

 

The only thing holding Mass Effect 2 back is it's relationship to Mass Effect 1.

[igyman]

The only thing holding Mass Effect 2 back is it's relationship to Mass Effect 1.

 

I'd say that's the only thing holding the game together as a Mass Effect title, but to each his own. The same goes for the new guy's crappy writing, or should I say stealing plot elements and environments from Battlestar Galactica, Terminator, perhaps a little bit of Matrix and TRON (by stealing I mean that the only thing different is the names of the characters and races/factions involved). Again, this is just my opinion after two playthroughs.

[Achilles]

I'd say that's the only thing holding the game together as a Mass Effect title, but to each his own.

Indeed.

 

The same goes for the new guy's crappy writing...

 

...or should I say stealing plot elements and environments from Battlestar Galactica, Terminator, perhaps a little bit of Matrix and TRON (by stealing I mean that the only thing different is the names of the characters and races/factions involved).

I've seen all of those movies and I'm not seeing the connection. If you're upset that the final boss LOOKS like a Terminator, then okay, but that isn't the same thing as "the only thing different is the names of the characters and races/factions involved".

 

And if you're saying he "stole" from BSG because a couple of the voice actors were in BSG, then he also stole from ST:TNG, as did the first ME.

 

And WALL*E "stole" from 2001 and Alien(s).

 

Again, this is just my opinion after two playthroughs.

Okay.

 

All I know is that I don't have to engage in any mental gymnastics to reconcile the authors horrible grasp of biology and causal relationships.

 

I'll fully acknowledge that he suffers from "wash, rinse, repeat" syndrome with the whole "recruit hit point/gain hit point's loyalty" thing, but at least some of them (the one's not written by Drew Krapshoot) are interesting.

[igyman]

 

Like I said, to each his own, but I found the new guy's plot twists just terrible, unoriginal and completely disappointing.

 

I'll fully acknowledge that he suffers from "wash, rinse, repeat" syndrome with the whole "recruit hit point/gain hit point's loyalty" thing, but at least some of them (the one's not written by Drew Krapshoot) are interesting.

 

I do agree that most of the side-missions are relatively interesting, but I think it's sad that the main story was so poorly written compared to them.

 

I've seen all of those movies and I'm not seeing the connection. If you're upset that the final boss LOOKS like a Terminator, then okay, but that isn't the same thing as "the only thing different is the names of the characters and races/factions involved".

 

The final boss is one of the gripes I have, but it's not The Gripe. The full list would be way too long and besides I'm too lazy to write it, so I'm just going to mention one of the things I consider stolen, as in no significant modification whatsoever - the final, Suicide Mission. For comparison:

 

Battlestar Galactica series finale plot:

The Galactica is going on a high risk mission to rescue a half-Cylon little girl. The girl is held on an ancient secret Cylon space station, which is located in the middle of an asteroid field surrounded by black holes. There is only one point of entry for ships to "jump-in" and when they do they will be noticed by the Cylons immediately.

 

Mass Effect 2 Suicide Mission plot:

The Normandy has to go on a high risk mission to rescue the abducted colonists. The colonists are held on an ancient secret Collector space station, which is located in the middle of an asteroid field surrounded by black holes. There is only one point of entry - the Omega relay - for ships to "jump-in" and when they do they will be noticed by the Collectors immediately.

 

There's a bunch more examples similar to this one, but you'll have to look for those yourself.

 

And if you're saying he "stole" from BSG because a couple of the voice actors were in BSG, then he also stole from ST:TNG, as did the first ME.

 

Nope, nothing to do with the voice actors. I'm talking strictly about plot elements.

[Achilles]

Like I said, to each his own, but I found the new guy's plot twists just terrible, unoriginal and completely disappointing.

Well, there was only one and yeah, it wasn't earth-shattering, but I think it helps to remember where "middle-sequels" fit into the grand scheme. Introductions have been done but the story can't end yet. So no build up and no pay off.

 

As such, I think ME did okay. I have to give the writer a lot of credit because DK gave him some steaming piles of pooh in some areas, but he still made it work. Is it perfect? No. Was it a tale for ages? Hardly. Was it a lot more than I was expecting? Yes it was.

 

I do agree that most of the side-missions are relatively interesting, but I think it's sad that the main story was so poorly written compared to them.

See above. I'm not entirely ready to accept that this isn't a function of being stuck in the middle. ME2 is supposed to nothing more than move us from part 1 to part 3 without loosing our attention.

 

The final boss is one of the gripes I have, but it's not The Gripe. The full list would be way too long and besides I'm too lazy to write it, so I'm just going to mention one of the things I consider stolen, as in no significant modification whatsoever - the final, Suicide Mission. For comparison:

 

Battlestar Galactica series finale plot:

The Galactica is going on a high risk mission to rescue a half-Cylon little girl. The girl is held on an ancient secret Cylon space station, which is located in the middle of an asteroid field surrounded by black holes. There is only one point of entry for ships to "jump-in" and when they do they will be noticed by the Cylons immediately.

 

Mass Effect 2 Suicide Mission plot:

The Normandy has to go on a high risk mission to rescue the abducted colonists. The colonists are held on an ancient secret Collector space station, which is located in the middle of an asteroid field surrounded by black holes. There is only one point of entry - the Omega relay - for ships to "jump-in" and when they do they will be noticed by the Collectors immediately.

 

You're stretching.

1) 1 girl vs a lot of abducted humans (some of which are your crew members

2) I don't remember the Cylon ship being ancient. I do remember it being important. If we want to take marks of for having a significant setting for the finale, I think we're going to have to widen our scope of criticism.

3) Asteroid field vs. wreckage/debris

4) Bunch of black holes vs supermassive blackhole

5) The crew in ME2 was expecting not to get seen at all.

 

More?

 

There's a bunch more examples similar to this one, but you'll have to look for those yourself.

And I'm sure if I look hard enough I'll find some. I'm sure that has something to do with the fact that everyone borrows from everyone else. The skill comes in how much you make it your own.

 

Again, I'm not saying the ME2 broke new ground. I am saying that the story was a lot better than I was prepared to give it credit for when I "Pressed Start". Mordin and Legion's loyalty missions (I'm going to get a beat down for this) reminded me of something I might see from a Chris Avellone game.

 

Some of writing was cringe worthy (Grunt, Samara, etc), but for the most part it was far better than ME1 ("EMBRACE ETERNITY!!!" x too many ***damn times).

 

Nope, nothing to do with the voice actors. I'm talking strictly about plot elements.

 

Okay.

 

P.S. Damn you for making me defend this game! Do you have any idea how much grief I'm going to get from Mimartin?! Do you?! :fist:

 

[DarthParametric]

You realise there are more than two writers for both games right? It's not like Karpyshyn wrote 99% of ME1 and Walters wrote 99% of ME2. I dunno how your idol Avellone works, but from what I've seen from comments by Bioware writers they share the load around a lot amongst the whole writing team (which is usually around the 6-10 people mark). For example, even in cases where someone is credited with writing a particular character, 2 or 3 other writers typically work on their dialogue as well. Your Karpyshyn hatred seems rather irrational in that context. Why not just say you preferred the overall writing in ME2 compared to ME1 and leave it at that?

[Achilles]

You realise there are more than two writers for both games right?

Indeed Lead Writer credits are shared on ME2, but IIRC, that is not the case for ME1.

 

It's not like Karpyshyn wrote 99% of ME1 and Walters wrote 99% of ME2.

At no point did I disillusion myself with the notion that Lead Writers earned that title via word count. I imagine that they are probably responsible for narrative and the final draft, etc.

 

I dunno how your idol Avellone works, but from what I've seen from comments by Bioware writers they share the load around a lot amongst the whole writing team (which is usually around the 6-10 people mark). For example, even in cases where someone is credited with writing a particular character, 2 or 3 other writers typically work on their dialogue as well.

Indeed, this is my understanding of the process as well. I don't imagine that these supporting writers work in a vacuum. Neither do I imagine that Lead Writers themselves are simply administrators.

 

Your Karpyshyn hatred seems rather irrational in that context.

 

I can't dislike his work because he has help?

 

Why not just say you preferred the overall writing in ME2 compared to ME1 and leave it at that?

Sure, but if there are objective means of comparing "good writing" to "bad writing", we can have that conversation too (obviously participation is not required if there's something else you'd rather be doing).

[mimartin]

Mass Effect 2 Suicide Mission plot...

ME2 reminded me more of The Dirty Dozen, than Battlestar Galactica.

 

Gather your forces of misfits and criminals to attack the ultimate evil. Only thing missing was a religious nut like Telly Savalas character Maggott (Ashley could have filled in the role nicely had she been allowed to join the party) and Grunt getting gun down in the end like Jim Brown.

 

Do you have any idea how much grief I'm going to get from Mimartin?! Do you?! :fist:

However could you think such a thing, I much too kind of a person to stoop to such pettiness.

[TriggerGod]

Only thing missing was a religious nut like Telly Savalas character Maggott (Ashley could have filled in the role nicely had she been allowed to join the party)

 

Thane was fairly religious, but not to the point of Maggott or Ashley...

[Totenkopf]

Thane was fairly religious, but not to the point of Maggott or Ashley...

 

Must have missed something. Ash doesn't go off on a rant about sinners and whatnot like Maggot. Saying she believes in God and being a perverted zealot are far and apart different things. Now, if one wanted to say she was a "nativist nut"/xenophobe of sorts.....

[mimartin]

Must have missed something. Ash doesn't go off on a rant about sinners and whatnot like Maggot.

No, Ashley isn't as bad as Maggot, but beside a few Television Evangelists, who is? The comparison was a very mild attempt at humor on my part. For the record, I also don't really think Grunt looks like the 2nd greatest football player of all-time either.

[Ztalker]

So we're panning Mass Effect character now because they are cliché?

It's what makes movies and other stuff work.

 

Last 'non-cliché' character I encountered in a video game was Kreia...but I recently enjoyed Alpha Protocol very much...which was one big cliché. The evil Korean Martial Artist, the crazy Amarican, the flirty Mercenary...etcetera. The way they handeled it was just perfect. I dare you to play Marburgs Villa mission with SIE as handler. The dialogue...hilarious.

[TriggerGod]

Yeah, remember that weapons pack I said would precede the Shadow Broker DLC? Time to spend more money on weapons they could've included in the original game!

[Sabretooth]

So we're panning Mass Effect character now because they are cliché?

Why yes, yes we are.

 

It's what makes movies and other stuff work.

If by 'work' you mean make tons of money made off of unthinking masses who only want a night of cheap entertainment without any intellectual content, then yes, it makes them work. And at the same time, hundreds of movies across the world 'work' through screenings at film festivals, underground theaters, art galleries and digital distribution - films that break the norm and do more than just hawk their recycled wares at audiences.

 

Last 'non-cliché' character I encountered in a video game was Kreia...but I recently enjoyed Alpha Protocol very much...which was one big cliché. The evil Korean Martial Artist, the crazy Amarican, the flirty Mercenary...etcetera. The way they handeled it was just perfect. I dare you to play Marburgs Villa mission with SIE as handler. The dialogue...hilarious.

That Alpha Protocol's characters were mired by implausibility is no secret, nor is it any particular strength of the title. At some moments, it seemed to outright parody assumptions, such as the CIA casually discussing public surveillance, or the Hong Kong section which could easily have come from a story arc of Black Lagoon, the Rome section that seemed to lifted from (insert generic espionage paperback here) and so on.

 

The reason clichés are a problem in the Mass Effect series is that they do not lend to any overarching meaning within the narrative - they do not exist to expose us any truth, but merely because they have been used before in film and have worked. They do not exist with any underlying purpose in the storytelling context, but are merely second-rate paper hoardings.

 

And this is my primary beef with the storytelling in this series - it has absolutely no point. There is no great character drama about Sheppard, there is no morality tale, no expounding of human nature, or a subliminal discussion of the problems affecting us today or what might affect us in the future. And I'm not talking about bull**** like the human extremist organisation, that's crap you see in almost every country today. The same goes with Dragon Age - both this and the other series, they are both pretty much trash entertainment that dig up old settings and older clichés, package a story and ship them for money. This is not what the older RPGs, or any of the older games were.

 

Now excuse me while I stroke my beatnik goatee and read Pynchon or some such.

[DeadYorick]

@Sabretooth: I have to agree with all your points. There's very little substance to Mass Effect's storyline.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-chjRWdlTg

 

Mass Effect 2 is getting put onto the PS3.

 

*sigh* Who else is expecting ME3 will have a 5 hour campaign that plays so much like a third person shooter it just has skills and dialogue to set it apart as an RPG, be entirely multiplayer focused and have a completely balls storyline/characters?

 

Just me?

[Achilles]

We'll see. I've heard more than one comment that the fans complained about the dumbed-down (nearly non-existent) RPG elements, so I suspect that they'll make at least some effort to make it more RPG-like.

 

Hopefully that doesn't translate as "more ME1-like"

[DeadYorick]

We'll see. I've heard more than one comment that the fans complained about the dumbed-down (nearly non-existent) RPG elements, so I suspect that they'll make at least some effort to make it more RPG-like.

 

Bare in mind there were also fans who thought the original Mass Effect was not really an RPG. I don't really foresee Bioware going with the fans that want an inventory or more skills. As the majority of fans I know preferred this more third person shooter gameplay.

[Achilles]

Bare in mind there were also fans who thought the original Mass Effect was not really an RPG. I don't really foresee Bioware going with the fans that want an inventory or more skills. As the majority of fans I know preferred this more third person shooter gameplay.

Your guess is as good as mine. Again, the one or two comments I've seen seem to acknowledge that the choice wasn't a great one (which would imply that ME3 will be different). What will actually happen is a craps-shoot.

 

ME is mindless entertainment. ME2 was better mindless entertainment than ME1. I do have slightly higher hopes for ME3, but I'm not too emotionally invested at this point.

[Taak Farst]

you guys should see the bioware forums announcement thread. it's flooded and its still getting crammed with posts as i type. the amount of fanboys complaining are hurrendous. Its quite a stupid marketting problem though..I mean, yeah, wider aaudience..but its a wider audience of folks not knowing what a "seren - EDIT: Saren" is..i mean..no mass effect 1 on ps3 is dumb

[Meowster]

What a shame that the PS3 announcement came so late; I probably would have gotten it, but alas, I got it for my computer last week in lovely HD. Suppose it is for the best, since I could put some mods in this way and tweak the graphics to my liking.

 

Despite my feelings for Bioware, I really love this game. Especially the loyalty missions.

[Achilles]

no mass effect 1 on ps3 is dumb

Mass Effect 1 was distributed by Microsoft. I don't imagine any part of their business plan involves handing over market share to their largest competitor.

 

ME2 on the other hand was distributed by EA who probably wants to get their fingers into as many pies as possible. Though I can't imagine the percentage in this move; porting the game probably cost them at least a few nickels and most people ARE going to play ME2 probably already purchased in on PC. Either the market research says that PS3 owners are a huge untapped source of revenue or someone will have to fall on their sword for pulling the trigger on a dumb mistake.

[DeadYorick]

Mass Effect 1 was distributed by Microsoft. I don't imagine any part of their business plan involves handing over market share to their largest competitor.

 

ME2 on the other hand was distributed by EA who probably wants to get their fingers into as many pies as possible. Though I can't imagine the percentage in this move; porting the game probably cost them at least a few nickels and most people ARE going to play ME2 probably already purchased in on PC. Either the market research says that PS3 owners are a huge untapped source of revenue or someone will have to fall on their sword for pulling the trigger on a dumb mistake.

 

They mentioned the PS3 version would feature "hours of bonus content". So I am assuming there is some DLC available besides the traditional Cerberus Network stuff for the PS3 version. Something exclusive that they'll release on the 360/PC version a few months later. Something to hook prospective buyers.

[Achilles]

The thought occurs to me that they could be laying the groundwork for a simultaneous release for ME3. Pure speculation on my part, but it makes sense.

[DeadYorick]

The thought occurs to me that they could be laying the groundwork for a simultaneous release for ME3. Pure speculation on my part, but it makes sense.

 

A simultanious release of ME3 sounds unlikely, I would expect at least another few years or so of hype first before ME3. Just like ME1 and ME2. They mentioned the release date of the PS3 port would be next year.

[DarthParametric]

I think Achilles was suggesting a simultaneous multi-platform (i.e. PC/360/PS3) release for ME3, not launching ME3 at the same time as ME2 on PS3. I'd be thinking Xmas 2011 or 1st quarter 2012 is the likely launch window for ME3.