Lord of Hunger Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 One thing I've noticed around here is that while arguments can get very heated around here, there are far more varieties of different viewpoints than I would have expected. In fact, there are way more moderates than I thought possible, because I generally get the impression from our country's politics that we are headed towards even more increasing partisanship rather than the bipartisanship that our President keeps begging for. According to Orson Scott Card in his novel Empire, it is likely that our political tensions are going to get so high to the point of a civil war. It also means that both side fulfill the worst expectations of the other: The Left actually becomes a bunch of socialist, militant atheists who want white males to becomes second class citizens and for people to be allowed to even marry animals while the Right actually becomes a bunch of fascist neo-crusader racists who want the Bible to replace the Constitution and for minorities to become second class citizens. But if the members of the forum here are decent sample of America's real political spectrum, then I have concluded that the real America is for the most part moderate, leaning towards the libertarian ideology of "just let me run my life and if I need help I'll ask for it". You might have people are for gay marriage but not abortion, some people who think we should heavily regulation oil companies but pursue nuclear power instead of wind and solar. You could have people who think that the Iraq War was wrong but we should invade Pakistan and North Korea. I honestly believe that ideological extremism and polarization is quite rare, and because it is on the news (as a device to generate interest and ratings) and within Congress we may think that it is everywhere. I think most people probably don't even give a **** about global warming or the Health Care debate in Congress or Obama's middle name being "Hussien". And I also think a lot of people are tired of all the unnecessary drama of politics. Do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Rider Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Also note that there are several members on here who are not from the US. But aside from that, I think this is a fairly accurate conclusion about the every-day politics of the average American. Something I try to impress upon foreigners who seem to forget that our news media is less reality and more sensationalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmerman Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Do keep in mind that the reason you keep hearing such ridiculous nonsense from either side, and nothing approaching compromise, is that in politics as in most things, only the most extreme, motivated, and vocal members of an organization, philosophy, religion, group, etc, speak out and get airtime. Moderates of any stripe, christian, muslim, democrat, republican, pagan, atheist, etc, all these moderates almost never get airtime or are heard by the majority of the population as they aren't really news-worthy or serve as a means of riling people up. Will the extremists (O'Reilly, Limbaugh, and their democratic equivalents) keep spewing hate speech at each other? Absolutely. Does anyone with three brain cells take them seriously? Well.....I sure hope not. Being vocal, famous, or recognized does not mean they are representative of what the majority of the population believes. And yes, many people here subscribe to libertarian views. The problem is voting for the least bad scumbag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Thank you for confirming what I've suspected since childhood: that my parents have less than three brain cells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Thank you for confirming what I've suspected since childhood: that my parents have less than three brain cells. Well, my father likes Rush Limbaugh and others like him, but in recent days I've got to know my father better and my father seems like a very intelligent, moderate person, with far more than three brain cells. I'm not defending Rush Limbaugh or the likes of people like him, but I'm just saying, considering the people who actually think people like Rush Limbaugh, O'Reilly, etc, etc are smart; well, don't judge a book by it's cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 rush limbaugh is high virtually 24/7 and has a standing prescription for viagra for his trips to the dominican republic don't knock his hustle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Yuthura Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Depends... naturally. It really depends on how strongly we believe in something that will lead us to how much we are willing to compromise. I have some very strong beliefs based on what I've collected from a number of people and read over the years that are so ingrained within my sense of logic that I would say the sky is red before compromising. But the level of dedication goes also to the situation and who you're up against. If I were going head to head with someone who I knew understood the subject I was talking about, I would be more likely to accept compromise. This is not solely because s/he has a PHD or something, but because I and that person would be more likely to know the conflicts on both sides prior to the matter at hand. I have a level of proficiency at macroeconomics, but if I were at odds with someone who was more knowledgeable/more experience, I would be very forthcoming because I don't have the grounds to call myself an expert. Then that comes to another issue with regard to people calling themselves experts. I've gone head on against such people and found that they only were able to contribute a very limited perspective, provide arguments that don't make sense, and step beyond the limits of what they participated in. A soldier has more ground against me for being in combat, but that doesn't mean he can call himself an expert on the war he fought in. When I encounter such people, I feel as though I have no choice but to increase the intensity of my arguments to cut them down; otherwise they will gain support from other less-informed people using flawed logic. And that leads to passionate arguments or conflicts where you have to fight like that's all that matters; otherwise the opposite side will continue to shoot you in the foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I myself often get quite heated in certain types of arguments to the point where I can be almost completely unwilling to compromise. I have a hugely over-inflated ego that likes to tell me that I'm some sort of moderate super-genius who has everything 100% right, so, to be honest, on certain subjects.... If the debate gets heated enough, I can be extreme in my veiws. But in knowing this, I can maintain moderacy in my opinions and be reasonable in knowing that in reality, I don't know jack. I don't want to be the only person to say this, so someone else, anyone, please tell me you're the same way... Basically, what I'm trying to say is that moderates can at the same time be intelligent and reasonable, but also be as dumb as a dodo. (If you'll pardon the stereotype about dodo birds.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Well, my father likes Rush Limbaugh and others like him, but in recent days I've got to know my father better and my father seems like a very intelligent, moderate person, with far more than three brain cells. I'm not defending Rush Limbaugh or the likes of people like him, but I'm just saying, considering the people who actually think people like Rush Limbaugh, O'Reilly, etc, etc are smart; well, don't judge a book by it's cover. My folks listen to that **** 24/7. They sleep to it. I'm not exaggerating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 The more liberal someone is, the more conservative they think I am. The more conservative someone is, the more liberal they think I am. I'm screwed either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Yuthura Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I myself often get quite heated in certain types of arguments to the point where I can be almost completely unwilling to compromise. Sounds like someone I know. It's often when someone insults me by saying 'If you just stop regurgitating what your college professors told you...' that really makes me want to take that person's argument and shove it down their throat. That person discredits my argument by discrediting me instead. I don't simply mimic my peers, but odds are that the others who read that would assume I do. For that, I want revenge. I have a hugely over-inflated ego that likes to tell me that I'm some sort of moderate super-genius who has everything 100% right, so, to be honest, on certain subjects.... If the debate gets heated enough, I can be extreme in my veiws. But in knowing this, I can maintain moderacy in my opinions and be reasonable in knowing that in reality, I don't know jack. Same here. I tend to think that I go beyond the scope of the argument to a much greater extent than others. I try to take everyone and everything around me into account while most just use their city or self. My problem with thinking 'outside the box' is that it really can't account for the psychology or uncooperative spirit some people have for each other. So I often push for solutions that would work, provided everyone involved contributes. This is where I lose cohesion in my arguments, but others often don't consider that there are over 6 billion others in the world that are all seeking the same things. One thing I use to keep things in perspective is my cousin's solution to the Isreli/Palestinian conflict. If Isreal (I know it's misspelled) simply withdrew from territory that rightfully belonged to the Palestinians, it would actually inspire them to intensify their hostility towards Isreal. They would assume that they got the land back because of their attacks and likely would lead to an increase in hostilities. My cousin said that giving concessions would have worked in easing tensions, but also generate positive feedback for continuing the fighting. I don't want to be the only person to say this, so someone else, anyone, please tell me you're the same way... Basically, what I'm trying to say is that moderates can at the same time be intelligent and reasonable, but also be as dumb as a dodo. (If you'll pardon the stereotype about dodo birds.) Don't worry; you're not alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 . what I'm trying to say is that moderates can at the same time be intelligent and reasonable, but also be as dumb as a dodo. (If you'll pardon the stereotype about dodo birds.) This isn't restricted to just moderates--it happens to pretty much everyone at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allronix Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I'm the resident radical leftist. I know my views on things are not American mainstream. I'm Socialist or Green in my political leanings and a practicing Witch. One feeds into the other, as social justice and environmental protection overlap more often than not. Working for a living and paying taxes? Well, it just made me more radical... One of the reasons I don't post much at Kavar's is that I would rather be out doing things, like calling my congress-critter, carrying petitions, or marching in a protest. That's more productive than bickering on an online forum. Star Wars and other fannish pursuits are the way I calm myself down after fixing computers for the tech-clueless all day or rest after doing what I can that day. Besides, it's not worth it to come out, breathing fire. Makes folks mad and does more damage than good, especially when I know I'm already on the fringes. GTA:STCity commented that I may be radical, but I'm not necessarily unreasonable. I'd like to keep it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderWiggin Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 According to Orson Scott Card in his novel Empire, it is likely that our political tensions are going to get so high to the point of a civil war. It also means that both side fulfill the worst expectations of the other: The Left actually becomes a bunch of socialist, militant atheists who want white males to becomes second class citizens and for people to be allowed to even marry animals while the Right actually becomes a bunch of fascist neo-crusader racists who want the Bible to replace the Constitution and for minorities to become second class citizens. The afterward to Empire was great. I thought it was one of Card's better works - which is surprising since his normal genre is scifi or fantasy. I agree with him 100%. _EW_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmerman Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 The more liberal someone is, the more conservative they think I am. The more conservative someone is, the more liberal they think I am. I'm screwed either way. I'm with you on this. Some of my more liberal friends have major troubles reconciling the fact I hunt, own guns, and am fiscally conservative (and, for the truly super duper liberals....the fact my eco-cred is so far in the negative it's not even funny) with the fact I'm socially liberal and educated. It's really entertaining actually, watching them work through the concept that there are people who do not fit one specific mold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverNight Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 I remember from the political compass thread that I'm to the far right of anybody else that responded there... now, while that was purely Kavar's, it was a decent cross-section of the people who tend to take part in the discussions. However, from that, I wouldn't call myself a Hard-Right person... hell, I may be a Conservative -for now at least, I'm only 17, views change over time- but I know I don't fit the 'mold' for them at least. Extremists? I can't say I've seen any here... exception being Allronix, who reminds me of a friend of my who is probably the furthest to the left of anybody I know. Besides, as many people have pointed out, American Politics tends to take place in the upper quarter of the Political Compass map (Authoritarian/Conservative) so our 'extremes' are nothing compared to Europe... I shudder to think what would happen once the US gets a serious Euro-style politico in office... @Jae: Thought I had you pegged as a moderate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Yuthura Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 I used to be extreme leftist, but that was only while Bush was in office. I was for Kerry literally because he was not Bush and nothing else. It was when Bush got elected... not re-elected, as he destroyed the democracy of the US in order to steal the presidency from the man who actually had the popular vote... I thought that if the US wanted him, they deserved him. I just didn't wish to have to have him forced upon me because of such people. Now that I've aged a bit and saw the way the world works... I guess that the issue about who you give power to isn't really going to matter much. The president really isn't going to impact the fate of the state so much for the better anymore as they can for causing harm. I guess that Obama was ultimately the best choice, but I don't expect he's got much chance at repairing 10% of the damage Bush has caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Dravis Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 In general I dislike stupid ideas. Fanatically one-sided ideas for governing an extremely diverse country like the US are invariably stupid. So yeah, my views are a mixed bag. My interest in anti-foundationalist and existentialist philosophy (Wittgenstein, Kierkegaard, Camus) has probably moderated my thinking also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allronix Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 I'm with you on this. Some of my more liberal friends have major troubles reconciling the fact I hunt, own guns, and am fiscally conservative (and, for the truly super duper liberals....the fact my eco-cred is so far in the negative it's not even funny) with the fact I'm socially liberal and educated. It's really entertaining actually, watching them work through the concept that there are people who do not fit one specific mold. Guns? Yes, citizens should be able to own them. Please realize they are deadly items, and treat them with the respect they are due. the biggest problem with guns are with people who do not secure their firearms and teach their kids to treat it as though it is loaded and leathal at all times. Hunting? My only request is that you eat what you shoot and waste as little of the animal as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Yuthura Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Fanatically one-sided ideas for governing an extremely diverse country like the US are invariably stupid. Which is why we voted for Bush; because he valued the unborn. And in all that, no one seemed to take notice that he gave less than a damn about the murder of over a hundred thousand innocent civilians that died in Iraq from a war his administration facilitated. He is very pro-death... or the issue really doesn't matter to him. And it's why we asked him and all his competitors what he thought of gay marriage... very important subject that takes priority over the ever-increasing US deficit. I don't know about those posting here, but I think I'd rather have seen that than to have China own the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmerman Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Guns? Yes, citizens should be able to own them. Please realize they are deadly items, and treat them with the respect they are due. the biggest problem with guns are with people who do not secure their firearms and teach their kids to treat it as though it is loaded and leathal at all times. Hunting? My only request is that you eat what you shoot and waste as little of the animal as possible. I had a feeling that would ruffle feathers, always does. I'm very safe with mine. I've grown up around them since I was six, so I'm very used to having them around....that said, they're under lock and key in a quality gun safe whenever I'm not using or cleaning them. Ammo is in another safe. Not exactly the most practical solution in case of home burglary or whatever...but...baseball bats aren't lethal. As for hunting, I go bird hunting and generally cook them that day or week. Deer and elk hunting, while I have done so, is far more boring and less fun. Ironically, the only deer we've ever gotten jumped through a window in our house and basically killed itself on the glass shards. My house is a better hunter! That deer was tasty though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salzella Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 (If you'll pardon the stereotype about dodo birds.) i doubt the dodos are going to object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Yuthura Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 I actually would rather support the development of more effective non-lethal weapons instead. Rather than allow Americans to carry more devastating firearms, why not promote weapons that are less deadly? I certainly would feel more comfortable with having everyone carrying air tasers than for only a fraction of the population having firearms. After all, isn't the right to bear arms mainly for the sake of defense? Obviously an M-16 will trump any air taser that will ever be in existence, but I would rather that it be more difficult for the average person to obtain lethal weapons. Those that intend to use such weapons for the wrong purpose obviously will not let a little thing like the law stop them, but it would become harder for them if more people were able to defend themselves. I don't expect such a thing to take place, but it would be a radical idea that will never really win a place from either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Sorry, but I am most certainly not comfortable with the idea of criminals carrying real firearms while law-abiding citizens are stuck with Air Tazers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Man Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 What I hate is that recent announcement the Dept. of Homeland Security sent out. The whole 'Any returning Veteran is a potential right-wing extremist' thing really, really PISSED ME OFF!!!!! I mean, seriously, My father came back from his second deployment in this war a few months back. He's not only a christian, but in the first deployment, his job was convoy duty. You know, drive a Humvee, get shot at, call for support, all that good Sh**! His second deployment was to Gitmo, for which I will be thankful, he was nowhere near a warzone, not to mention, he coudl call whenever he wanted without having to worry about time zones and that crap. But he returns and this happens? It really PISSES ME OFF!!! Please, first of all, stop using the guy from the Oklahoma City bombings as an excuse, second, Treat your Soldiers nicely, and if your going to yell at them, learn about what they did. My dad told be a story from hsi First deployment, ever, to Desert Storm. When he came back, people were lined up outside the place were they got their medals adn rewards for their job. One lady sticks out in his mind. She held up a sign and yelled 'You baby murderers!'. I laugh at her and so does my dad, every day. Why? My dad was a history detachment, meant to record data and stuff, not to kill people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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