vanir Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 At about 4:30 this morning she was driving down the highway towards my house and emergency crews said she must've fallen asleep at the wheel, a good 160 feet down the other side of the nature-divider. Had to be going a decent speed since her little hatchback ploughed through a tree in the road-island, uprooted it and broke it in half, one piece crushing the roof and the other demolishing her car. It rolled, it flipped, it cartwheeled the 160 feet to land onto my driveway facing the other way, on its side and caught fire. I was woken by the trapped driver yelling for help, I must've been in a deep sleep because I thought I'd dreamed large possums jumping around on the tin roof. Then I heard shouting from the front of the house, well this area has its drunkards and first I assumed it was some hoodlums wandering past and shouting. Then as I listened it sounded more like someone genuinely needing aid. I pictured a mugging victim perhaps laying on the sidewalk stabbed and bleeding, it wouldn't be the first time for that. I raced to the window and peered out to take in the scene and analyze the situation, was there a gang fight out the front, would it be suicidal to go racing out? I've jumped in on a mugging before, stopped a stabbing, but never without carefully sizing up the whole situation so I've got every possible advantage to act smartly with. What I saw was a demolished car laying on its side barely 15 from the house, flames licking at the underside and a woman screaming for help from within. Other tenant's cars are parked right beside it and my next thought is Hollywood explosions but fortunately the flames are around the engine compartment and not near the rear fuel tank at this stage. So I'm straight onto the phone to the emergency services, giving as much detail as prudent and knowing where I am thankfully they can be here within a few minutes day or night. By the time I've tossed clothes on and woken up properly (a ritual performed by going to the toilet) the first police car has rolled up, must've been patrolling nearby and a minute behind it the fire trucks and paramedics. That was lucky because I won't deny I was really dreading possibly complicating her injuries and getting blown up dragging her from the burning car. Or worse, yanking on her arm and it comes off in my hands and then getting blown up. The driver seem to be stabilised by MICA paramedics fairly quickly once removed from the car and was coherent and talking with police, so she's real lucky. They told me she was "stable but y'know these things can turn." Last week there was a fatal collision about four houses away. Might have to put up a barrier out the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 was she hot e: and not because of the fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hallucination Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 ****, I wanted to ask that, Jmac. >:| And as for barriers, put up a moat. It'll put out car fires and make muggers afraid of you going medieval on their asses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandalore The Shadow Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 That would have scared me a little probably a little traumatizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nedak Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 How was the sleep after that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 What I saw was a demolished car laying on its side barely 15 from the house, flames licking at the underside and a woman screaming for help from within. Other tenant's cars are parked right beside it and my next thought is Hollywood explosions but fortunately the flames are around the engine compartment and not near the rear fuel tank at this stage. 've jumped in on a mugging before, stopped a stabbing, but never without carefully sizing up the whole situation so I've got every possible advantage to act smartly with. ^ = +15 awesome, -13 for internet credibility. pics = +10 internet credibility; you know the drill. was she hot e: and not because of the fire fire may have undone any preexisting hotness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 yeah but she would've been hot in a very literal sense of the word hence the clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Do you have a fire extinguisher in your house, vanir? If not, then you should probably get one. They can come in handy sometimes. That way you could put the fire out instead of letting the poor girl get all crispy while waiting for the authorities to arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser'eck Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Then again just stay inside, I remember on the news earlier this year that some one had gotten into a car accident, and some one came over and pulled him from the car. After which the victim sued the would-be hero for rough handling him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I didn't say pull her out of the wreckage; I said put out the damned fire before it engulfs the car and its occupant. Leave the extraction to the experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanir Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 Yes a fire extinguisher is definitely on the shopping list. Would've loved having one for the exact strategy described by Q. It was the perfect thing to do and there were really no other attractive options. Didn't sleep after of course, kept hearing her voice long after it was all cleaned up and gone. Landlord (who has the room out the back) took some snaps...you know after the woman was in the ambo and the emergency crews were having a laugh at how demolished the car was and how lucky the driver was not to be in itsy bitsy pieces all over the road. Nobody likes to see a girl in her early twenties in pieces all over the road. One of the firemen explained a "Good Samaritan Act" of Parliament that I didn't know about, which states that you cannot be sued for any damages as a result of rendering aid at an accident scene, assuming they are reasonable actions to the best of your knowledge. I could've tried to drag her from the car but as mentioned I was aware from a simple engineering standpoint the fire was no immediate threat although impressionable and panic inducing, and that emergency crew stations are within a couple of kilometres in every direction and on 24hr alert so any major accident or life threatening occurance brings them literally within minutes, so long as they are called quickly and precise directions and description are given over the phone. Seriously the first cop car arrived in the time it took to go to the toilet and put some clothes on. The other issue is regardless whether I were sued (that wasn't on my mind) is the problem that once I am reaching into the car she panics and tries to move too much. I could already see by the state of the car much of the cab was crushed, there was no windscreen, the roof was flattened on the drivers side and the steering wheel was mangled, the front of the car basically didn't exist anymore where it had hit the tree. I was expecting a dead driver which meant she would have to be pulled out over the top of him through the broken windscreen and sharp metal, mangled frame, with tiny spaces to work through, she was effectively trapped. The car was laying on its drivers side and the passenger side had been heavily damaged in the roll and tumble for more than a hundred feet across bitumen. It would probably require special equipment to remove her safely or at least more than one person just reaching in and grabbing torn/broken limbs and tugging. I would not want to do her further injury...but yes because I had no extinguisher, if the fire spread I definitely would've had to wrench her out and probably kill her doing it. Police told me just before the ambo left she asked if they wouldn't mind locking her car up for her. Poor girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabretooth Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 And as for barriers, put up a moat. It'll put out car fires and make muggers afraid of you going medieval on their asses. It would be more fun to not have a moat and just charge out of the house wearing plate armour, on a heavy horse and with a glorious red lance complete with frills and streamers, charging on with Ride of the Valkyries playing the background. That is how muggers are taken care of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser'eck Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 @vanir - I know that you were not thinking about being sued, I was simply pointing out that if had helped she could have been just as cold hearted as the other guy was. But from your analysis you probably did the best thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Then again just stay inside, I remember on the news earlier this year that some one had gotten into a car accident, and some one came over and pulled him from the car. After which the victim sued the would-be hero for rough handling him. How would you like it if someone ignored your cries for help, or a beloved friend or family member's cries for help? WWJD (What would Jedi do?) There is no way I'd ever let fear of a miniscule chance of a lawsuit get in the way of my rendering aid to victims of accidents. I think vanir did a great job acting as he did, and we should be proud of him. I can't believe the girl survived the crash, though it sounds like she had a concussion at the very least from her comment about asking the police to lock up her car. While I imagine there are other countries in the world where such lawsuits have occurred, it's only in the US where such ridiculous cases actually make it to court in the first place in any significant numbers, because the courts and lawyers can be freaking nuts here. However,the Good Samaritan acts protect people who act in good faith. I've read most of the US state Good Sam laws, some are better than others, but all of them help protect against frivolous lawsuits. In some states, such as MN and WI, there are 'duty to act' laws--i.e. you are required to stop when you come across an accident scene and render what aid you can, even if it's nothing more than calling 911. There is also the federal Volunteer Protection Act which has even stronger teeth than state laws. France has a duty to act law, as do some other countries, so if you do nothing, you're breaking the law. Generally it's best not to extricate someone from a car after a crash, and to let EMS do it. However, in life-threatening situations, such as a burning or flooding car, removing someone may be prudent, and perhaps the only option that allows the victim a chance to survive. As for fire extinguishers--I have a small one designed for camping (for use if a campfire gets out of control). It sits on the counter next to my stove. Happily, it's never seen any use. They're really inexpensive, and it can keep a grease fire from getting out of control. Go get one at the hardware or camping stores if you don't have one already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hallucination Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 It would be more fun to not have a moat and just charge out of the house wearing plate armour, on a heavy horse and with a glorious red lance complete with frills and streamers, charging on with Ride of the Valkyries playing the background. That is how muggers are taken care of. True, but the global economy makes buying and maintaining a horse difficult for a lot of people, so I went for advice that more people would be able to take advantage of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Reiper Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Okay...that's um...depressing. All I did last night was play KoTOR II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser'eck Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 How would you like it if someone ignored your cries for help, or a beloved friend or family member's cries for help? WWJD (What would Jedi do?) There is no way I'd ever let fear of a miniscule chance of a lawsuit get in the way of my rendering aid to victims of accidents. I think vanir did a great job acting as he did, and we should be proud of him. I can't believe the girl survived the crash, though it sounds like she had a concussion at the very least from her comment about asking the police to lock up her car. While I imagine there are other countries in the world where such lawsuits have occurred, it's only in the US where such ridiculous cases actually make it to court in the first place in any significant numbers, because the courts and lawyers can be freaking nuts here. However,the Good Samaritan acts protect people who act in good faith. I've read most of the US state Good Sam laws, some are better than others, but all of them help protect against frivolous lawsuits. In some states, such as MN and WI, there are 'duty to act' laws--i.e. you are required to stop when you come across an accident scene and render what aid you can, even if it's nothing more than calling 911. There is also the federal Volunteer Protection Act which has even stronger teeth than state laws. France has a duty to act law, as do some other countries, so if you do nothing, you're breaking the law. Generally it's best not to extricate someone from a car after a crash, and to let EMS do it. However, in life-threatening situations, such as a burning or flooding car, removing someone may be prudent, and perhaps the only option that allows the victim a chance to survive. As for fire extinguishers--I have a small one designed for camping (for use if a campfire gets out of control). It sits on the counter next to my stove. Happily, it's never seen any use. They're really inexpensive, and it can keep a grease fire from getting out of control. Go get one at the hardware or camping stores if you don't have one already. My point was misunderstood entirely! I commend vanir for what he done. I was commenting off of what Evil Q posted about fire extinguishers, some times the best way to be a hero is to call the authorities and let them handle the situation. As vanir pointed out he could have helped but he could have also risked injuring himself in the process. And for your information, I am a Christian and am very aware of WWJD. My comment was not aimed at letting the poor lady burn and suffer, God in Heaven forbid. I do take back my comment, as I did not intend for people to misunderstand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabretooth Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 True, but the global economy makes buying and maintaining a horse difficult for a lot of people, so I went for advice that more people would be able to take advantage of. Only a Western problem as far as I know, we Eastern countries love our horses. Like Afghanistan. Buzkashi is badass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 yeah but she would've been hot in a very literal sense of the word hence the clarification And i agree. i was merely adding the point that yes, she would be literally hot if the fire got to her, but if it did, it would most likely ruin any amount of the hotness that's worth anything. I think vanir did a great job acting as he did, and we should be proud of him. For me he stands to gain +12 awesomeness if he just posts pics. Seriously, vanir. Perhaps you could stick up the photos your landlord took? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 My point was misunderstood entirely! I commend vanir for what he done. I was commenting off of what Evil Q posted about fire extinguishers, some times the best way to be a hero is to call the authorities and let them handle the situation. As vanir pointed out he could have helped but he could have also risked injuring himself in the process. And for your information, I am a Christian and am very aware of WWJD. My comment was not aimed at letting the poor lady burn and suffer, God in Heaven forbid. I do take back my comment, as I did not intend for people to misunderstand it. Sorry, the Jedi thing was not aimed at you per se, though your name was part of the bad pun. It was meant as more of a tongue-in-cheek comment. I'm Christian myself, but it's a Star Wars board so I thought I'd take liberties with the J part. I was responding to your comment about lawsuits, and I wanted to be very clear on eliminating any fear about helping in an accident so that people don't hesitate to act for fear of legal repercussions. I don't want misinformation being passed around about this very important issue. The one case you refer to I believe involved a medical professional, not a layman, stopping and rendering aid. I believe the case got appealed later. I am not a legal professional so maybe the legal experts here can access Lexis for more info, but I know of no cases where a layman with no medical credentials has been successfully sued in the last 20 years for helping. In addition, we're talking about an exceedingly rare situation. There are many, many accidents every day, unfortunately, and many people helping, happily, without legal action following. In addition, I wanted people to realize that in certain states in the US and in some countries, you are required to stop and render aid. Your suggestion to ignore the calls for help would actually be illegal in some places, not to mention morally wrong. I hope that clears it up. For me he stands to gain +12 awesomeness if he just posts pics. Seriously, vanir. Perhaps you could stick up the photos your landlord took? The car, maybe (as long as the license plate doesn't show), but not the lady--it would be a violation of her privacy, I believe, to post pics of her without her permission, not to mention tasteless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanir Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 The landlord took pics of the car, I'll see if I can get him to upload one on a flash drive for me in the next few days, and edit out any license plating. Commonwealth and British federal parliaments have the Duty of Care rule, so indeed it is illegal to fail to render reasonable aid where there is foreseeable danger involved, whether a car accident or any other situation (misadventurous injury, drunkenness on premises, criminal injury, onwards). I had to study this with a minor legal course a few years ago and it is an ambiguous rule, but generally speaking most Acts of Parliament, common law and things like Duty of Care are adjudicated on a case by case basis using the maxim of "the reasonable mind" in court. Some Acts of British Parliament for example are made by a simple off hand statement made by some Lord or another in session, the "pre-emptive strike" falls under this. Lord Howe once commented during Parliament that it should be okay for someone to strike an individual they reasonably believe will imminently do them harm. Whammo, the pre-emptive strike is legislated by default in GB. But...actually running around doing it is another matter entirely, your actions will be closely examined for their reason and reasonable nature by authorities and courts and you may very well wind up in jail on assault and battery charges, if you run around clocking people over the head because you're feeling a little paranoid that day. As I understand it medical professionals are also governed by the board tribunals and ethics commitees, so might not be sued under Duty of Care/Duty to Act rules but might be under the Hippocratic oath (not relevant in Commonwealth) or medical ethics tribunals closed system of governing. Breach in Duty of Care are criminal offences (prosecuted by the QC or DA) and not a private lawsuit, although criminal damages may be sought. At least in Australia criminal damages rarely exceed four figures, six figures is ridiculously rare and reserved for things like a severed limb by proved gross employer negligence. A private lawsuit against a medical professional would probably have best chances if their licensing was first revoked by a medical board or ethics tribunal, then you would continue in a compensation suit privately for the big bikkies. That would be five-six figures here and eight figures in the US. Let's say your car manufacturer installed a faulty steering rack which caused an accident and your family member was killed. You might get say $300K over here in criminal damages, I imagine the claim in the US would be for something more like $150mil and settle out of court for $10-20mil, probably all handled by the criminal justice system. A local private lawsuit might turn that $300K into $2-3mil. The car manufacturer still wouldn't even notice a blip on their financial radar but the Australian based Managing Director of the company would do jail time, no way out on that one. People do say the victims get the short end of the stick oft times but our criminal justice system is designed to prosecute rather than compensate, and private lawsuits are almost a novelty. People don't often worry too much about lawsuits, but do fear criminal charges. I understand it is the polar opposite in the 'States sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mav Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Okay...that's um...depressing. All I did last night was play KoTOR II. That's even more depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Funny, but I wasn't aware that lies, hypocrisy and blatant abuse of power were part of Christian doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litofsky Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Not exactly a pleasant sound to wake up to. Has there been any news on the driver, and how she's doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser'eck Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Sorry, the Jedi thing was not aimed at you per se, though your name was part of the bad pun. It was meant as more of a tongue-in-cheek comment. I'm Christian myself, but it's a Star Wars board so I thought I'd take liberties with the J part. I was responding to your comment about lawsuits, and I wanted to be very clear on eliminating any fear about helping in an accident so that people don't hesitate to act for fear of legal repercussions. I don't want misinformation being passed around about this very important issue. The one case you refer to I believe involved a medical professional, not a layman, stopping and rendering aid. I believe the case got appealed later. I am not a legal professional so maybe the legal experts here can access Lexis for more info, but I know of no cases where a layman with no medical credentials has been successfully sued in the last 20 years for helping. In addition, we're talking about an exceedingly rare situation. There are many, many accidents every day, unfortunately, and many people helping, happily, without legal action following. In addition, I wanted people to realize that in certain states in the US and in some countries, you are required to stop and render aid. Your suggestion to ignore the calls for help would actually be illegal in some places, not to mention morally wrong. I hope that clears it up. The car, maybe (as long as the license plate doesn't show), but not the lady--it would be a violation of her privacy, I believe, to post pics of her without her permission, not to mention tasteless. Yes, your clarity helps. But I want to make it clear myself that my comment was not meant to suggest to ignore the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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