Is Telltale getting too ambitious?

[ATMachine]

I'm posting this here instead of at the Telltale forums because that is an eldritch extradimensional plane of drooling fanboy zombies, and this board is (relatively) saner.

 

You may remember that, when Tales of Monkey Island debuted on Mac a few months ago, it featured re-recorded Earl Boen dialogue in Launch of the Screaming Narwhal, available from Day One. A similar upgrade for the PC version was then promised as "forthcoming." It still hasn't shown up.

 

And in The Penal Zone, PS3 users unlock an extra psychic power (the Nutrition Specs) and extra accompanying gameplay on completing the game.

 

I personally felt cheated that this gameplay wasn't available on PC. After all, both versions were sold for basically the same price, and the disparity in content wasn't advertised in advance. I pre-ordered the game, trusting Telltale to be awesome, but got an inferior experience compared to that of other users. It was only when I complained on the forums that Telltale rather belatedly said it was "working on" moving the feature to PC.

 

Now Sam and Max Episode 2 is about to come out and there's still no sign of either of these long-promised features. It appears that delays of content upgrades have become a regular happening around Telltale.

 

My question for you is: Has Telltale tried to do too much, too fast? They are currently working madly to pump out a full season of Sam and Max and the Puzzle Agent pilot and quite possibly other as-yet-unannounced pilot games. It seems to me that this relentless progression of game-making has severely impeded Telltale's ability to add features to its previous software.

 

Is this just growing pains at a relatively new and small company? Or is it an inherent flaw of the episodic model?

[urluckyday]

I don't think that they were ready for the response that they got with both beloved series (sam and max/monkey island). I think they went in knowing fully that both series were practically unknown by most gamers except those that remember the 'golden days' and that they were only appealing to a niche. I don't know whether or not it they were thinking it would be a smaller group than it actually is, or if they actually ended up appealing to new adventure gamers. I think it's 'growing pains' as you call it, but I am wary for the future...when companies start acting like giant conglomerates like EA (in offering special stuff to certain consoles), it worries me for how well they are going to be able to fulfill my gaming wishes...

 

We shall see...hopefully I am wrong, though.

[Rosefull]

Has Telltale bit off more than it can chew? Yes, most definitely. However, I still have high hopes for the future. I went into Tales of Monkey Island expecting an inferior knock-off of the games I love, and was pleasantly surprised. From what I've seen so far, Telltale has a lot of potential. Though they've made some mistakes, I think that they'll find a way to right them.

[Jenni]

I'm definitely a rabid Telltale fangirl, but I agree with your post entirely. I personally think Telltale worked best when it gave itself a break between series up to the Sam & Max Season Two era.

 

After that, I think they took the idea that they need to keep having a game out to keep fans happy a bit too far. I definitely agree with the idea that a game a month is necessary to keep interest for an episodic series, but they don't have to keep a game a month and multiple series all year round. I don't think most people would complain if they took a few months breather time between series so they could release the most polished package they can.

 

We all know they're a small company, and we all appreciated the love and care that went into their older releases that only a small company could provide. Now, they're definitely biting off more than they can chew, and sadly it's effecting that feeling of love and care that went into their products.

 

I'm not too upset about the lack of an Earl Boen Launch of the Screaming Narwhal or nutrition specs in The Penal Zone, since Telltale has stated that they are coming (and both of those games haven't had a DVD release yet, which is where features pretty much become set in stone). I have to state though that I'm an uncommonly patient person, but I can see where people would start to get a little impatient and worried about whether this is a sign of things to come. I'm kind of a little worried about the latter myself to be honest.

 

The thing I'm most disappointed in was that Wallace & Gromit's Grand Adventures were great games, but the DVD was rushed. There are many threads about the dissatisfaction about the DVD over at the Telltale forums. I'm not in the group that was so upset about not including games with CD-based protection. Although I can understand their distress since the online activation in games would need to be cracked if Telltale ever closed down, and a legitimate purchaser never wants to feel like a pirate. The thing I'm disappointed in are the bonus features. The videos are fun, and I was excited to be able to own the Cracking Contraptions shorts. But, they're video files rather than DVD videos, so they must be played on a computer. They don't even use the same video codec in each video. The interview and game trailers can be viewed on a PS3, but the Cracking Contraptions shorts use an unsupported codec. Compared to the excellent content in the Sam & Max and Strong Bad DVDs (which lacked the bloopers (would have loved those! I know there's at least one since it's been officially posted on homestarrunner.com) and the cutscene commentaries (which was a shame since the video DVDs have commentaries that are often pretty hilarious), it's as if the content was just thrown in as an afterthought. There are bloopers in the datafiles of Muzzled, so it's a real shame that an official blooper reel was never made. I felt bad that Wallace & Gromit got the short end of the stick when it came to extras compared to the other Telltale releases, so I created a fanmade

of my own from the Muzzled bloopers (which is where the rabid fangirl part of me shows through ).

[Haggis]

Heh, nice video, Jenni. I actually haven't touched the W&G DVD yet, mainly because of Telltale's relentless release schedule. I'm already feeling a bit swamped (it took a few days before I felt enough of an urge to play The Penal Zone), so I definitely wouldn't mind if they took a break. It's even interfering with my normal gaming habits - all these Telltale games make me game-weary, which is not good.

 

As for making all those promises and not delivering on them, I think Telltale love their fans just a little too much, and they want to please them in ways that aren't always practically possible. All the sales and extras that they do compensate for this though. I still prefer Telltale over the vast majority of other game companies out there, they just need to take a step back sometimes.

[Kroms]

Although I sort-of agree that they've been a little late with promised stuff, like the Earl Boen version of "Screaming Narwhal", I have to point out that "taking a break" between games isn't practical for them right now. The major difference between the Telltale of old and the Telltale of new is that they can actually work on multiple projects at once. Whereas Sam and Max Seasons One and Two only had Dave Grossman, Brendan Q. Ferguson and Chuck Jordan, they now have Grossman, Jordan, John Drake, Andy Hartzell, Sean Vanaman, Joe Pinney, Mike Stemmle, Mark Darin, and, when they work on something, Jake Rodkin, Nick Breckon and Will Armstrong, plus double the number of employees they used to have. Around the time of Strong Bad, they changed how they made their games, too, and instead of having a Lead Writer and Lead Designer, they now have a lead, and then each episode gets specific hands working on things. It's a much more focused production. They're obviously still learning, but there's no denying how much they've improved. Just compare "Culture Shock" to "The Penal Zone".

[Cyrus7]

Drooling fanboy zombies... That would make a decent horror game

[Laserschwert]

I got the feeling Telltale lost a bit of control when ToMI got into the game, and I guess that's why the last two episodes of "Wallace & Gromit" (and of course that coaster of a DVD) got a little less love then they should have, especially "Bogey Man". And I think it explains why they're hiring in almost every area right now, because the crunch they got into with ToMI while pre-producing S&M3 was probably more than they could handle through "normal" working hours. But I think when they manage to hire some more good people (and announcing "Puzzle Agent" is a good sign that they have new capacities now) I guess there'll be bigger teams that can work on several projects separately, with each one keeping the regular monthly Telltale rhythm.

 

Of course, I wouldn't mind episodes being a bit further apart than a month... I remember that the first two seasons of S&M had a two month break between their first and second episodes... never had a problem with that.

[diduz]

If you remember, I started this thread months ago:

 

http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10938

[ATMachine]

If you remember, I started this thread months ago:

 

http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10938

Prophetic. And if anything the problems have worsened since then. However, good luck saying that on Telltale's forums these days; there are some *Champions of Telltale* on there who eat the spleens of people who disagree with them for breakfast. Since the thread you linked seems to be a relatively sane conversation, I'm not surprised to see it hasn't been updated in almost a year.

[The Tingler]

I was all set to disagree with you when I saw the thread title, but after reading the posts I have to coincide. I was just about to play through Tales of Monkey Island again and had just assumed that the Earl Boen Ep 1 voice was already added - I'm shocked to hear that it still hasn't been done, considering it is, y'know, done.

 

While Tales of Monkey Island was superb and Sam & Max: The Devil's Playhouse is looking set to be as good or better (I've finished Ep 2, it's ace), but Wallace & Gromit really did get the short end of the stick in all regards. Telltale obviously worked really hard on the voices and in making the world look and feel authentic, but failed to add much with each episode. The Bogey Man in particular was incredibly disappointing.

 

While the quality in some areas is shooting up, the relentless pace is clearly having an impact. I know they're a business, and have to get as many products out as possible, and they're doing very well at that... but the cost is starting to show.

[jp-30]

Well, ATMachine, the complaint thread you started on the Telltale site a couple of days ago was very hostile in tone. Had you been less aggressive, I think you'd have received a much more measured and sympathetic response from the forum regulars, many of whom agree with what you're saying - especially regarding the W&G DVD.

 

As for one platform getting bonus content (the Specs), that's really nothing new in the game industry. And Telltale have said they do intend to deliver it.

 

Maybe they have been stretched too thin lately. But so long as the core gameplay experience stays solid, I really couldn't give a hoot about bonus powers or DVD extras.

[ATMachine]

As for one platform getting bonus content (the Specs), that's really nothing new in the game industry. And Telltale have said they do intend to deliver it.

It may be commonplace but that doesn't stop it from being an objectively bad and undesirable practice. The games industry as a whole is not exactly a model of good customer service, especially when it comes to dealing with PC users. That doesn't mean I as a customer shouldn't complain, though.

 

And I may sound cranky, but I'm sort of tired of the assumption that Telltale can do no wrong at this point. Having said that, they're still my favorite video game company in the world, goddamnit! So when I get frustrated by stuff like this, it stings all the worse. Maybe I just sound too curmudgeonly, I don't know, but however badly I may express it, I genuinely like this company and want it to prosper. I do think that even complaints can be constructive, though, and I'm not afraid to speak my mind.

 

You personally may not care about such things as bonus content. That's your prerogative. But I feel like I should get the exact same gameplay as the PS3 gamers got, since I paid almost exactly the same price. Or they should tell me up front that I won't have that chance. Whatever, at least it's promised for PC now (which is better than before I opened my big fat mouth).

 

For me the issue will be a live one until the day Telltale delivers the content to PC. Which, to get back to the point of this thread, is precisely the problem: the release dates of additional features like that one seem to be slipping.

 

I'm all for nice new shiny games, but if they cut into the delivery of the additional content for older games that Telltale has already promised its users, then clearly something is not right. I don't doubt Telltale wants to get this stuff out the door (that would be silly) but... slow down, guys!

[jp-30]

Just curious. What do you think of the Telltale Wiiware games, delivered well after the PC versions, at double the price, and with inferior sound and graphics (in the most part due to the space limitations of Wiiware titles)?

 

Or are you only concerned with PC parity?

[ATMachine]

Just curious. What do you think of the Telltale Wiiware games, delivered well after the PC versions, at double the price, and with inferior sound and graphics (in the most part due to the space limitations of Wiiware titles)?

 

Or are you only concerned with PC parity?

I haven't really investigated the situation on WiiWare, but yikes, that does sound bad. Double the price? That IS outrageous, given the inferior graphics etc. I don't think that's reasonable at all.

 

I do think it's pretty clear that Telltale's method of delivering titles to Wii is seriously flawed, and needs to change. WiiWare just isn't working out, and is not only creating titles inferior to PC versions, it's creating PC versions that look inferior to other games. It's a lose-lose situation all around.

 

I am not really a Wii gamer, though, so I don't feel that I'm the best-informed person to complain about the issue. Maybe you should start your own thread?

[jp-30]

I'm not concerned about the Wiiware games, personally, as the price is on a par with other Wiiware titles, and the games delivered are better than almost all other Wiiware games.

 

Telltale have said they produce the PC version, then hone it and compress it for Wiiware. They've said that PC isn't missing out on anything due to Wii versions also being made. Whether you believe them or not is a different matter.

[clone2727]

You may remember that, when Tales of Monkey Island debuted on Mac a few months ago, it featured re-recorded Earl Boen dialogue in Launch of the Screaming Narwhal, available from Day One. A similar upgrade for the PC version was then promised as "forthcoming." It still hasn't shown up.

Didn't really bother me. I beat the game on Windows first and then I got the Mac version, so I'll be playing that now anyway. Of course, that's no reason for them not to put it on the PC version and hopefully they will get to that soon. Though, I heard (don't remember where) that it would be on the disc version...

 

And in The Penal Zone, PS3 users unlock an extra psychic power (the Nutrition Specs) and extra accompanying gameplay on completing the game.

 

I personally felt cheated that this gameplay wasn't available on PC. After all, both versions were sold for basically the same price, and the disparity in content wasn't advertised in advance. I pre-ordered the game, trusting Telltale to be awesome, but got an inferior experience compared to that of other users. It was only when I complained on the forums that Telltale rather belatedly said it was "working on" moving the feature to PC.

This didn't really bother me either... Mostly because I don't like going back through games afterward to go through every nook and cranny to find all the secrets. I like playing the games, but not to death. I also don't like the whole system of achievements now... I'm not playing the game for a trophy, I'm playing the game to beat the game and enjoy myself (a whole lot along the way. All IMHO, of course.

 

My question for you is: Has Telltale tried to do too much, too fast? They are currently working madly to pump out a full season of Sam and Max and the Puzzle Agent pilot and quite possibly other as-yet-unannounced pilot games. It seems to me that this relentless progression of game-making has severely impeded Telltale's ability to add features to its previous software.

 

Is this just growing pains at a relatively new and small company? Or is it an inherent flaw of the episodic model?

I don't think we have seen enough to say yet. I absolutely loved The Penal Zone and I can barely wait until Tuesday for Tomb. To me, the quality keeps improving and has not dropped at all. That may all change in the future, but it has not happened yet.

[elTee]

An interesting angle to view this from: you're all huge Telltale fans. You play each of their games as a matter of principle, and are able to observe them in real-time like this. I, on the other hand, tend to play the games that sound appealing to me - such as TMI - and then if I'd rather play Red Dead Redemption than Sam and Max, I'll spend my money on the former.

 

That doesn't mean I won't play those Telltale games in the future - as many non-hardcores will also do, thanks to Steam deals and similar bargains. There will be no 'well, they rushed it out' when that happens - it will just be a game that you picked up one day because it was on offer. If it feels - in any way - unpolished, then people will be far less forgiving of the game than people in these forums would be.

 

A hypothetical there - as I said, I've not played most of their games. Yet.

[Maratanos]

I would just like to jump in here to say that while I agree that it's not necessarily in their best interests to rush DVDs and delay release dates (personally I was not nearly as happy with either the SBCG4AP OR W&G DVDs as I was with the S&M DVDs), nevertheless I think you may be missing the point of Telltale's business model by asking them to slow down. Personally, that's what I find absolutely brilliant about them as a company. Unlike all other video game companies, which release a game every 1-5 years, Telltale has a new game out now nearly every month. It's a brilliant system and I wouldn't ask them to do it any other way.

[Thrik]

I've not really noticed any significant issues with the way Telltale does things personally; I've always found the games robust and enjoyed them. But I'm consistently quite behind with my games, for example I've still not played season two of Sam & Max (and may never do so) and I was always like an episode behind with TMI.

 

I think the two particular issues highlighted in the OP are more down to non-development considerations such as arrangements with publishers, etc. I really doubt development schedules and stuff are affecting stuff like timed/platform exclusives (something I've learnt to just deal with as it happens all the time nowadays) and redistribution of games.

[KestrelPi]

I'm not sure exclusive content sits well with me either, but I think that's a seperate issue.

 

As for scheduling, it's really quite difficult to say. I've always thought that the games were slightly visually rough around the edges (issues like odd lighting, animation and inconsistent attention to detail) but they improve on these with each iteration of the engine. It's fairly clear to me that the games would look better if they had more time, though, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine that other stuff has to be compromised, too.

 

I do worry about comments on the recent ToMI post-mortem that owing to the scheduling they'll have to sacrifice exactly the sort of stuff that makes the games special. The diving to the ocean floor bit described may have been time consuming for a few seconds of callback to MI2, but it was also my favourite little moment of the whole series, and I don't like the idea that this sort of thing is something they'll have to think twice about.

 

Telltale games started out good and are constantly getting better, but I want to be able to say that everything they make is -special-. Sam 'n' Max season 3 is outstanding so far, and I hope they can get there. Right now, I'm not worried that their ambition will make them start going backwards... but I hope it doesn't slow their progress, either.

[Thrik]

Oh yeah, that quote did worry me too a bit. I think if things that add charm and character to the game have to be compromised in order to get them out at such a fast pace, the scheduling needs to be adjusted to fit the development needs and not vice-versa. It'd be a shame if additional stuff like that was removed to get them out in time.

 

I mean obviously there are limits as nobody works well without a deadline, but I did get the impression during the TMI releases that things were extremely tight. I doubt anyone would have minded if there were an extra 2—4 weeks spent on each episode to make them truly shine.

[Rosefull]

An interesting angle to view this from: you're all huge Telltale fans. You play each of their games as a matter of principle, and are able to observe them in real-time like this. I, on the other hand, tend to play the games that sound appealing to me - such as TMI - and then if I'd rather play Red Dead Redemption than Sam and Max, I'll spend my money on the former.

 

That doesn't mean I won't play those Telltale games in the future - as many non-hardcores will also do, thanks to Steam deals and similar bargains. There will be no 'well, they rushed it out' when that happens - it will just be a game that you picked up one day because it was on offer. If it feels - in any way - unpolished, then people will be far less forgiving of the game than people in these forums would be.

 

A hypothetical there - as I said, I've not played most of their games. Yet.

Well, now that's not entirely true. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'd never heard of Telltale until a couple months ago when I first found out about TMI. In fact, at that point, I was quite the opposite of a Telltale fan. I was angry when I heard that this little-known company had taken my favorite series after ten years and made what I thought was going to be an abomination. I went into the game hating it before I began. But I have to admit, they changed my mind. And for someone as stubborn and opinionated as me, that's hard to do.

 

So, my personal opinion of their style is based only on what I saw in TMI, since that's the only Telltale game I've ever played. And from that, I gathered that they have a lot of potential. They were a little too eager (the amount of unnecessary references to the older MI games became very annoying very quickly) and some of the puzzles were a bit repetitive (if I have to find my way through a jungle with a map one more time...), but I still think it was a good game and that they have room to grow.

[ATMachine]

Well, now that's not entirely true. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'd never heard of Telltale until a couple months ago when I first found out about TMI. In fact, at that point, I was quite the opposite of a Telltale fan. I was angry when I heard that this little-known company had taken my favorite series after ten years and made what I thought was going to be an abomination. I went into the game hating it before I began. But I have to admit, they changed my mind. And for someone as stubborn and opinionated as me, that's hard to do.

 

So, my personal opinion of their style is based only on what I saw in TMI, since that's the only Telltale game I've ever played. And from that, I gathered that they have a lot of potential. They were a little too eager (the amount of unnecessary references to the older MI games became very annoying very quickly) and some of the puzzles were a bit repetitive (if I have to find my way through a jungle with a map one more time...), but I still think it was a good game and that they have room to grow.

You should know that many of the people working at Telltale are LucasArts veterans from years back. Dave Grossman worked on MI1 and DOTT, Mike Stemmle on Hit the Road and EMI, Joe Pinney worked on a canceled Indiana Jones game, Graham Annable had some minor job was the most important animator ever on The Dig.... I could go on for days. Arguably it's more akin to the golden-age LucasArts of the 1990's than is the current LucasArts company.

[clone2727]

Graham Annable had some minor job on The Dig....

He was also an animator on CMI, Full Throttle, Afterlife, and Outlaws.