Why I Hate KotOR and TOR

[Darth Primus]

KotOR is a long-lasting favorite to most SW fans. I've played K1 and K2, and herein lies my thoughts on these two games. They are crap. I'll explain.

 

KotOR is a break-off from that which has once been considered well-established in the terms of EU. I am talking about the true Knights of the Old Republic, set by the Tales of the Jedi comics. Yes, that one, with Odan-Urr, Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Ulic and Cay Qel-Droma... That came into being before the prequels, and it gives us a taste of what the Jedi Order may have been like, 4000 years before Palpatine burned it to the ground.

 

You see there a very loose Jedi society: each Master has his set of apprentices, whom he sends to places where the Jedi are needed. There is, apparently, not much distinction between a Jedi apprentice and a Jedi Knight, as the Prequel Trilogy establishes so clearly.

 

There is also a unique and distinctive view of the technological apparatus: the huge starships of Ambria, built within the carcasses of giant insects... The plasma cannons instead of blasters... Overall more frail-looking starships in general (like the Sith Battleships and Hogon's freighter).

 

All in all, it gives you the taste of an older galaxy, while still allowing you to look at it and say 'that's Star Wars!' with its Jedi and Sith and epic storylines.

 

Then came KotOR. Only fourty years later in the SW universe, we see a galaxy that's allegedly radically changed. A more accurate description would be to say that we see a galaxy that's just as it was when the Old Republic is reformed by Darth Sidious and his pet Vader. We see Padawans and Jedi Councils, a Temple on Coruscant around which the Jedi Order gravitates, people with surnames like Fett, Fortuna, Dodonna; wedge-shaped Star Destroyers, Sith with red (and only red) lightsabers... I mean, it doesn't seem that Exar Kun rebuilt his lightsaber using blue crystals, that he and Freedon Nadd didn't declare themselves Jedi Knights without opposition by their Masters, that Jedi didn't marry (see Nomi, who was married and had a daughter, and later got involved with Ulic; and Sylvar who was married to Crado). And most importantly, a Jedi High Council sitting on Coruscant guiding the Order's moves.

 

I mean, BioWare and Obsidian should get to know the established SW universe before changing it so drastically. That not only forced a series of assumptions and retcons regarding the timeline, but it also came as a complete disregard for the creators of the Tales of the Jedi, who managed to bring into life an extremely rich storyline. And all that for what?

 

So they could feed fans with Rise of the Empire Era-like gameplay with tons of Sith around.

 

And then came along KotOR II. Well, it is no better than the first. Because here, not only the mistakes of the earlier version are repeated, but the game designers even resort to the absurd: overpowered villains worthy of a Dragon Ball episode. We have the bleeper Sith Lord who can pass by completely unnoticed by the strongest Force-sensitives. Sure, Palpatine masks his Force capabilities. But Kreia manages not only to mask her presence, but also erase any thoughts of her previous self in those she interacts with (so much that the Jedi don't recognize her at all). Then there's my favorite absurd. A masked Sith Lord who can eat up entire worlds (Galactus... hmmm), and still hunger for more. And, of course, the walking corpse. Obviously, Freedon Nadd spent all his lifetime, and the lifetimes of his successors, searching for the secret of physical immortality, but who's this fellow anyways? This guy here doesn't need that. He is immortal just because he is, and makes through three wars, until this Jedi fellow convinces him life isn't worth living.

 

I mean, WTF? Why'd someone need to resort to these beaten-up cliches to make a SW game neat? To me, they only make the game a lot less than it could be.

 

And the tragedy continues with The Old Republic, with even more inconsistencies. For example: The Sith Emperor survived. OK. He did indeed, but he lived the rest of his days in Yavin IV, until Nadd came along and ended his life. His name is Naga Sadow (and his tomb is also misplaced in KotOR, saying blatantly he was entombed on Korriban, which is ABSURD). But there's the shady (and immortal) Sith Emperor, who allows the first Sith Empire to live after the Battle of Korriban. Well, we look at the Sith of that time, and we see them as a species, not a sect. Red-skinned humanoids, fierce and brutal. And we see none of them, I say again, none of them carrying lightsabers, throughout the Tales of the Jedi series. But when they return, they magically wield red-bladed lightsabers, as it was always their weapon of choice. Worse even, the absolute majority of Sith that return were not of the Sith species, as would be expected of an Empire that lived in seclusion for one millenium and a half. They are human.

 

We also magically see a descendant of the glorious Bastila Shan, our charismatic Jedi hero from the beginning of the torment, I mean, series. Well. I thought that, to folks at BioWare and Obsidian, Jedi weren't supposed to marry. We all know Revan had his adventures with Bastila in his time, but what would be the odds there would be an uninterrupted bloodline until 400 years later, if Jedi weren't supposed to marry, or even have relationships for that matter? Certainly someone would find out at one point, and the Jedi Council that firmly imposes Jedi laws wouldn't let it go simply because this fellow it the son of the great-granddaughter of Bastila Shan.

 

Oh, and not to mention all these Mandalorians, dressed like the Fetts. All these Republic Soldiers, dressed like Clone Troopers. And that clone trooper chieftain from Hope, that looks an awful lot like Jango Fett.

 

So here's my appraisal of this Holy Trinity. KotOR is a spit to the face of the creators of Tales of the Jedi. KotOR II is a walking absurd of cataclysmic proportions with its super-villains. And TOR is a rip-off from the Prequel Trilogies, that murders the Star Wars Universe for the sake of playability and MMO's.

 

To think some people actually deign to compare Lucas' work with this Unholy Trinity gives me death spasms.

 

Anyhow, I hope people don't find this overtly insulting to them, its just how I feel about these three games. And sorry about the lengthy post, too.

[adamqd]

I must agree, with Tales of the Jedi being my favorite Star Wars I too felt it was a leap from the Galaxy 40 years earlier, but unfortunately Lucasarts re-design and re-use ideas to best suit the larger demographic, which was the case for KotOR, TFU, and ToR... like "Everyone knows the films so lets make the game mirror the story, technology and Characters, it'll sell" or "People will get bored of a Jedi Knight game nowadays, lets retcon the rebellion and make you the most overpowered god among Jedi to appeal to kids and none fans"... etc, etc. As a dedicated EU fan, and lover of TOTJ, I have had to grow a very thick skin (although I have accepted KotOR and value it as one of my fav games and stories of all time). With the Prequels, and the Clone Wars Cartoon there has been this massive push to make Star Wars "Cool" or current again, and with that has come a massive drop in quality from Lucas licensing, whereas we'd get such awesome/different stories and ideas such as TOTJ in the early nineties, nowadays its all about plush toys and prime-time TV slots, I'm actually surprised they have allowed Dark horse and Del Ray to continue publishing none Clone Wars stuff, and to be honest they release the only Star Wars I like currently.

 

But yea, EU fans need Thick skin nowadays bud.. well, in 2003 regarding KotOR, a bit late to the "Bash"

[christos200]

one minute kotor is the best STAR WARS GAME EVER see at every review for kotor and see what are they telling. okey i respect your opinion but i think that someone must be crazy to dont like kotor.

[Darth Primus]

Well, maybe I overstated myself up there. I'd be lying if I said I hated everything about KotOR. But the issues I listed above are rather serious, and drag the games downwards into the pit for me. I'm a freak for a good story. Always have been and always will be. And to me, the storyline of the three aforementioned games are abhorrent, an assassination of the Star Wars Expanded Universe.

 

And the problem is just that: there are so few SW-based games of impact, that when something of a little higher quality comes about, its placed right away up in a pedestal regardless its many flaws. KotOR just rode in the wave of story-based non-linear RPGs, started with Neverwinter Nights, but BioWare could have made a much better placed game. The same goes with TOR: they're just riding the WoW MMO wave that's infecting the game industry, and don't simply care much about true storylines.

 

EDIT: I should've said: they simply don't care about true storylines, AND STAR WARS CONTINUITY.

[Pho3nix]

I have to agree with the OP

[christos200]

i agree that they are some mistakes but kotor is a very good game.

[Rabish Bini]

So, you hated the story/plot etc.

 

What about if you took all that out and played it as just a game. Did you like it then?

[Lord Foley]

I agree with about half of this. It breaks my heart to see a great era like Tales of the Jedi get stomped by newcomers, but at the same time I can't help but feel that KotOR, outside of this fact, is one of the very, very few EU contributions that really feels like it's Star Wars. KotOR II was very... different, and while Nihilus devouring a whole planet still bothers me, I do like the idea of the ancient Sith being something the Jedi in the Prequel Trilogy were truly afraid of the seeing again.

 

The criticism of The Old Republic, and how everything about it looks like it could just as easily have been set directly during the galactic civil war is something I couldn't agree more with. Why the hell do the troopers look like storm troopers? And the fact that the trooper looks exactly like Jango Fett in Hope pisses me off beyond belief. Even the symbol of the empire looks almost exactly like the symbol of Palpatine's Empire. Wtf is that? It's retarded.

[Liverandbacon]

The criticism of The Old Republic, and how everything about it looks like it could just as easily have been set directly during the galactic civil war is something I couldn't agree more with. Why the hell do the troopers look like storm troopers? And the fact that the trooper looks exactly like Jango Fett in Hope pisses me off beyond belief. Even the symbol of the empire looks almost exactly like the symbol of Palpatine's Empire. Wtf is that? It's retarded.

 

Exactly. If the whole point of using an era ~300 years away from any other established material is to have the freedom to do something new, why not, you know, do something new?

[Darth Primus]

It's 'cause if they jump up and do something new, like the creator of TotJ did, only the real fans will quite understand it as truly Star Wars. They might as well invest in something else entirely, because that is as hard to establish as something scratch-built. On the other hand, if they suck up concepts that are already well-established and popular (i.e. the looks and the feel of the Prequel Trilogy), they know that their new "product" will be a hit.

 

And while game designers are at it, they tell us real fans to go blast ourselves, 'cause all they're really after is the money.

 

And don't misunderstand me: I love the prequels. But the Prequels are supposed to be a unique time of their own, not the basis for everything else that is to be created.

[jonathan7]

I both agree and disagree with the OP, I would firstly say that I love the KotOR games, they are easily my all time favourite games. However I do think this does point out a general issue with LA, which is they often just think "This is cool and will make money" without thinking if it makes sense within the Star Wars universe. Hence the awful inconsistencies, contradictions and downright stupidity in the EU, I dislike TFU for its ridiculous over stating of a force users strength. One of my gripes certainly with KotOR is that it doesn't feel "old" when compared to the movies. That said having not read The Tales of the Jedi series I'm probably less bothered by it than those who did read the series, if that makes sense?

 

one minute kotor is the best STAR WARS GAME EVER see at every review for kotor and see what are they telling. okey i respect your opinion but i think that someone must be crazy to dont like kotor.

 

The OP is entitled to their opinion, and you can't respect someones opinion while thinking them insane for their opinion; furthermore I very much doubt many of the reviers would be aware of the OP's objections to the series.

[adamqd]

I'd suggest Reading the TOTJ J7, you'll be suprised how many Characters throughout the series you Know You can get 2 of the 3 series in collected Graphic novel now, pretty reasonably priced.

 

[Xavier2]

The opinion only holds true if one cares for the continuity stablished by the comics. In my case i had no idea about that series prior to the game. There are several easter eggs in KOTOR that relies to the story of Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Naga Sadow, etc and that made me look for the comic series.

 

To be honest, although i recognize the comic series makes an effort to establish a background for the Star Wars universe that feels unique and diferent of the movies it doesn't mean it is of better quality than KOTOR. I mean, for me who got in touch with KOTOR first and the comics second, the game has a better plot, better characters, better subplots (Czerka Corporation, HK-47, the Exchange, the Sand People, etc). Overall i think it is better than the comics it expanded from. Then perhaps KOTOR fixed a bad concept?

 

In the end the point of view sets the experience for the viewer.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

I have never read TOTJ, but the argument presented here has piqued enough interest that I think I will look for them.

 

As a game, I have always enjoyed KotOR a great deal, but I was not aware of how different the game was from the era it was supposed to represent.

 

TSL may not feel Star Warsy to some, but I have felt that it feels closer to "real" in the SW universe, despite the overpowered Nihilus. Still, it is just as guilty of looking like an era other than what TOTJ represents.

 

Thank you for posting, OP.

 

Hi Xavier2! Nice to see ya!

[Xavier2]

I have never read TOTJ, but the argument presented here has piqued enough interest that I think I will look for them.

 

As a game, I have always enjoyed KotOR a great deal, but I was not aware of how different the game was from the era it was supposed to represent.

 

TSL may not feel Star Warsy to some, but I have felt that it feels closer to "real" in the SW universe, despite the overpowered Nihilus. Still, it is just as guilty of looking like an era other than what TOTJ represents.

 

Thank you for posting, OP.

You will see it really differs in tone and aesthetics from KOTOR. I read part of the series a long time ago but i remember it didnt felt like KOTOR neither as Star Wars. I suppose any author who expands an already stablished universe, given the liberty, will try to stand out and come up with something unique. I believe that is the case with the TOTJ and there is nothing wrong with that. Nevertheless, if you have to appeal to a broader audience (Games are far more expensive to produce than comics) you must hold to core elements and recognizable features, thus lightsabers, jedi council, jedi robes, Ebon Hawk/Millenium Falcon, Sith titled "Darth", destroyer of planets aka Starforge/Death Star/Darth Nihilus.

 

Hi Xavier2! Nice to see ya!

Thanks! It's good to be recognized after so many years.

[adamqd]

You've got to remember, TOTJ came out 5 years before Episode I, so all the Jedi, Jedi temple, Sith, relationship between Apprentice and master was purely based on what little EU was established and basically just created its own Universe. and the fact that it was 5000-4000 years before Episode IV, I think it was a "Realistic" view of what the universe would be like.

[Darth InSidious]

Curious that the OP completely fails to actually discuss the games.

[Xavier2]

You've got to remember, TOTJ came out 5 years before Episode I, so all the Jedi, Jedi temple, Sith, relationship between Apprentice and master was purely based on what little EU was established and basically just created its own Universe. and the fact that it was 5000-4000 years before Episode IV, I think it was a "Realistic" view of what the universe would be like.

Absolutely true. Thats the unsolvable problem with Lucasarts. On one hand they are known to give a lot of creative liberty to the creators who expand their universe. On the other hand the movies are the foundation of Star Wars Lore. Combine the two and its bound to be continuity problems. In the end, IMHO, anything that comes directly from George Lucas is the ultimate source of Star Wars Lore. You can't blame Bioware for sticking with that rule of thumb, regardless of their personal feelings on the comics material.

[Darth Primus]

Curious that the OP completely fails to actually discuss the games.

 

I could spend all my day discussing these games, its positive aspects, and all the negative ones. But that is beside the point, the fact that the games set a major discontinuity problem, for a reason other than "expressing the author's creativity".

 

And to those who feel that KotOR storyline is rich and powerful, I could predict every turn out of KotOR 1, because it is an absolute childish cliche, and KotOR 2 needs not even be discussed, with its I-wanna-destroy-the-world-villains and "passive" main character.

[TKA-001]

I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on these views.

[Visas]

I owe my life to TSL.

[MajinMikeyX]

And to those who feel that KotOR storyline is rich and powerful, I could predict every turn out of KotOR 1...

 

I HIGHLY doubt that you could predict that you were Revan during your first playthrough.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

I HIGHLY doubt that you could predict that you were Revan during your first playthrough.

 

I've seem similar assertions several times, of people who knew about it as soon as they hit Dantooine.

[MajinMikeyX]

Are you saying you heard other people say they knew once they got to Dantooine? My first playthrough and everyone I know were shocked or surprised and had no idea they were Revan. One of my friends at the time said before he found out he was Revan that he was predicting that you had these visions because you were like, a 3rd person with Revan and Malak and you were hiding your identity or something I don't remember. Kind of a weird prediction, but it was close in a way. But knowing that you were Revan from basically the start of the game, I doubt that more than 5% of people's first playthrough they had a clue, but we'll never know since people wanting to act cool will say "Oh yeah I knew right off the bat dude it was a no-brainer!"

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Are you saying you heard other people say they knew once they got to Dantooine?

Yes. I dunno, I know I didn't see it coming but then again I wasn't paying the utmost attention on my character's tale and more on the whole galaxy at turmoil around my head. Some other people claim it was blatant obvious.