Return to Monkey Island

[KestrelPi]

39 minutes ago, Zaxx said:

 

Well Stan should be in the coffin, right?

I mean... the safe choice is the monkey, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's the Voodoo Lady.

Edited May 8, 2022 by KestrelPi

[Jake]

6 hours ago, Rum Rogers said:

Mind you it doesn't matter if as players we know that you can't die in MI (please don't remind me about the MI1 death, I know but it's clearly an easter egg), I just think that story-wise it makes a bit of a difference.

On my first playthrough of MI2 I did die in LeChuck’s fortress and that cutaway was one of the biggest laughs in the game for 11 year old me. I’d completely forgotten it was a frame story by then. I think as a kid it was the first time I’d ever seen that particular format of joke play out. 
 

(Honestly playing MI2 was the first time I’d seen a BUNCH of types of joke play out. It was pretty seminal in my education about what comedy was and how it worked. It was also seminal in my understanding that creative works I liked were made by actual people - I think it was the first thing that really spoke to me that I could also super clearly feel the writers inside the game talking to me. Anyway these games are good and I like talking about them!)

[ThunderPeel2001]

5 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

Again, with a 30 year interval I'd take anyone's statements on what was and wasn't planned for the story with a grain of salt. I'm sure Ron isn't lying, of course, but it's at least interesting that on the one hand he remembers MI2's ending being a last minute kind of thing and on the other he talks about the anachronisms all being a part of some deeper significance explored in the sequel - before that sequel had even been announced.

 

I can see why Ron (and Dave) get so annoyed when fans tell them they've remembered things wrong (I remember Dave in particular on Twitter getting very irritated). It must be incredibly frustrating to have people who weren't there doubt what you tell them.

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[ThunderPeel2001]

Double post

Edited May 8, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

22 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

I can see why Ron (and Dave) get so annoyed when fans tell them they've remembered things wrong (I remember Dave in particular on Twitter getting very irritated). It must be incredibly frustrating to have people who weren't there doubt what you tell them.

 

... Sigh. I don't know why we need to treat this like it's some sort of controversial thing to say. Look, I'm not saying it to say that they're unreliable (at least no more so than average) or don't know what they're talking about. I'm just stating the very uncontroversial fact that we can't take every statement someone says about something they made 30 years ago as gospel. I would say this about literally anyone, including myself.

 

If that's how Ron remembers it, great! I can believe it. But not like...uncritically. We've already seen what feel like slightly contradictory accounts from people who were there at the time (see Noah's comments on the plan for Monkey Island 3). Heck, it's been a while since I listened but I seem to recall they didn't even agree on everything in the commentary in MI2SE! It's not rude to suggest there could be more to the story - it's just... acknowleding that human memory is extremely bad at this sort of thing, and last time I checked, they are all still human.

Edited May 8, 2022 by KestrelPi

[Lagomorph01]

5 hours ago, Zaxx said:

 

Well Stan should be in the coffin, right?

What characters does he mean? I don’t see an image.

[Rum Rogers]

25 minutes ago, Lagomorph01 said:

What characters does he mean? I don’t see an image.

If that was some inside joke I didn't get, sorry for posting the image.


Nah, actually not sorry, it's so cool!

[MurraySchull]

Easy guess is Jojo. Less likely, but other possible option is Voodoo Lady (since all of the other characters have had their voice actors/castings teased and confirmed by the team.

 

Here's a theory. Maybe Ron was referring specifically to LeChuck's zombie form. And he'll be something else in this one? His "Chuckie" form might actually be a good starting point for him since we know he has "lightning eyes" powers already. Who knows what he could become later...

[Manny]

5 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

I mean... the safe choice is the monkey, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's the Voodoo Lady.

 

I say its Lechuck. Because he will be there in some other form.

[MurraySchull]

3 minutes ago, Manny said:

 

I say its Lechuck. Because he will be there in some other form.

 

Jinxed! 😁  Having LeChuck in a different form (human or otherwise) might also help to bridge the transition from Boen to the replacement actor too. Kevin Blackton voiced human LeChuck in Tales and he turned out great. That was a situation where I felt they could get away with a different actor for LeChuck because the characterisation was different enough (at first anyway!)

[ThunderPeel2001]

(Sorry, I wrote far too much for such a small point. We don't really need to get into the weeds of this! But since I've written it, here it is: )

 

Of course I appreciate that we're all fallible and that human memory is unreliable, and yes there's nothing wrong with being critical, but when the default position is:

  

5 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

I'd take anyone's statements on what was and wasn't planned for the story with a grain of salt

 

 

I think that's a bit far. You may disagree, or maybe you think that was a bit far too, but I'll give you my reasoning why I think that:

 

Outside of contemporary accounts/documents, the team's recollections are still the best sources we have, even with fallible human memory. Everything else is just speculation by people who weren't there. Unless we can directly contradict those memories with contemporary documented fact, then I think there isn't really any real reason to automatically doubt what anyone says.

 

I appreciate that you've tried to dig up contemporary evidence to support your belief that Ron is misremembering:

 

6 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

this unused picture was only dated around the same time or at least not very long after most of the other ones we had, so this would have been about 2/3 of the way through production:

 

But this is only assumption on your part: We don't know how many versions Peter Chan went through of those other locations. The earliest dated sketches for MI2 are actually from February and March 91. The latest dated images we have are from late July/early August, with the tunnel image being among them. So as far as anyone can tell, it was one of the last ones to be produced... again as far as anyone can tell.

 

We also really don't know much about the production schedules at LucasArts. How far in advance did Ron need to supply a completed story for the artists, animators, composers, programmers? How long did they spend in QA before going gold? As you're aware, they couldn't release patches back in those days, so production had to stop with plenty of time for QA to ensure the game was stable. We just don't know.

 

We also don't know if those tunnels were originally going to be used as something else, possibly unrelated to that ending.

 

(Interesting to note that "El Carlo" is mentioned on a June 25 sketch. I'm confused by that! When you started writing the story in late November 1990, and you still haven't figured out who your baddie is seven months later... or was that just Peter Chan getting confused and using an old character name? Who can say?)

 

Plus, when you start discounting evidence, there's a danger of another human failure (that we're all guilty of): Picking and choosing facts to fit our narratives. You say Ron is misremembering in 2022 because it's 30 years ago. But that also means he was misremembering in 2013, when he said he could remember the exact moment he was lying in bed and the ending came to him. And this is from a man with boxes full of waterlogged documentation that we've only seen glimpses of. 

 

I agree that some of what we've heard reads very contradictorily (what was Ron referring to in that Adventurer interview??), but unless we have hard evidence to prove otherwise, those recollections are the best we have. I'd lean towards believing them, with a critical eye, than automatically assuming they're unlikely to be true.

 

Or maybe this is just semantics.

[Glokidd]

I think LeChuck's evolving forms allow best for a voice change (hell zombie form allows for things like decaying vocal chords). I'd like to throw Garry Chalk into the list of potential new VO's, his role as Willy T Wino in TP had a nice timbre to it and I'd like to hear his pirate voice.

 

In more direct regards to Ron's tweet: I too would hope it's Jojo but we haven't heard anything about the voodoo lady or LeChuck (beyond that they couldn't get Boen to return and had his blessing to recast) so they are definitely in the running.

 

We know Alexandra Boyd is back so Elaine is going to be there at least is some fashion. The fact that they mentioned recasting and didn't just straight up say that lechuck wouldn't be returning leads me to think we will see him in some form as well. It doesn't rule out retiring the role completely however and bringing in a bigger villain of some sort (El Carlo sounds fun 😉 ).

 

Now the Voodoo lady... It would be odd without her considering her recurring roles in every title so far but... what if she wasn't originally supposed to be that but sort of like an Obi Wan for the first 2 and GB is on his own for the 3rd or something like that. Perhaps the Tales twist hit the nail a little to close to the head so Ron is avoiding that. I will admit however that this is all stretching to find an excuse which itself lends toward her not being the one not returning.

 

I mean it has to be Jojo... right?

[ThunderPeel2001]

Ooh. What if, knowing that Earl Boen wasn't available, Ron and Dave wrote around LeChuck? Interesting thought!
 

10 minutes ago, Glokidd said:

I mean it has to be Jojo... right?

 

Shock twist: Jojo wants revenge.
 

Edited May 8, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[Scummbuddy]

Jojo surely makes sense. Voodoo Lady and Stan have in-game continuity in MI3 explaining why we may not see them in this game.

Or maybe we'll finally meet El Carlo as the baddie.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Assuming the title is accurate, has anyone considered why we might need to return to Monkey Island?

[Rum Rogers]

8 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

Assuming the title is accurate, has anyone considered why we might need to return to Monkey Island?

Probably to chase LeChuck? The screenshot caption states it's LeChuck's ghost ship getting prepared to set sail, and I presume it's headed to the river of lava under Monkey Island? I wouldn't be surprised if you had to hide within the ship for the journey.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Rum Rogers

[ThunderPeel2001]

New: A very light interview with Ron and Dave (and Sid Meier) that doesn't add much new info:

https://www.theage.com.au/technology/video-games/monkey-island-is-back-but-don-t-call-it-a-90s-throwback-game-20220505-p5airk.html

Edited May 8, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

2 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 You say Ron is misremembering in 2022 because it's 30 years ago.

 

 

I basically agree we shouldn't dwell on this, but just quickly - I haven't, and didn't say Ron is misremembering - I in fact said he could well be right. I'm just saying that I think I wouldn't trust myself to remember what I made 30 (or 20, or even 10) years ago in any great detail, so while I'm happy to take the words we have as they are, I'm not quite ready to tie a bow on it and say 'okay, that's the final word on it, then', because creating stuff is usually a messy process in which details get lost in the shuffle.

(I think this really is semantics)

That video is interesting though and I don't think I've seen it before. It definitely suggests that that specific ending came very late, but I think it's compatible with my just general... hunch that they were circling around the themes that produced that ending for quite a while before that.

Edited May 9, 2022 by KestrelPi
edited to elaborate

[Lagomorph01]

9 hours ago, Rum Rogers said:

If that was some inside joke I didn't get, sorry for posting the image.


Nah, actually not sorry, it's so cool!

I still don’t see it (wonky browser settings?), but thanks anyway. I finally found it on Google!

 

My best guess is Jojo the Monkey. Since he died before EMI and they’re trying to adhere to canon.

(But all other characters are way more interesting to speculate upon.)

8 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

Ooh. What if, knowing that Earl Boen wasn't available, Ron and Dave wrote around LeChuck? Interesting thought!
 

I’d doubt that. He’s the recurring villain! Plus, it would mean they can’t use him

in any game anymore, because Boen is not likely to come out of retirement.

That, and considering the ending of Monkey Island 2, it’s hard to start off on that note without LeChuck (or Chuckie) in it.

Plus, we hear LeChuck’s theme in the teaser trailer ánd it’s his ship sitting in port.

 

It’s much more likely to be Stan or the Voodoo Lady. Stan is in the coffin, so that would be logical, but he could be in it if we get a time shift. The Voodoo lady makes even more sense since it’s already established in CMI that she hasn’t seen Guybrush since MI2, and that she has an agenda at the end of TMI that they might not want to delve into with this game.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Lagomorph01

[Vainamoinen]

15 hours ago, Zaxx said:

 

Well Stan should be in the coffin, right?

 

Just what I thought. If CMI is canon, Stan can't be in ReMI. Well, if someone cuts a hole into the left and right side of his confinement, we would have a wildly hand waving coffin, which would be hilarious and wouldn't break canon.

 

But I'd actually rather have Jojo return! Because he plays the piano, almost as badly as I do, and Guybrush didn't listen to his mom and didn't practise enough. Also we need to get a band together with unnamed ghost lady at the violin.

[DM81]

10 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

Assuming the title is accurate, has anyone considered why we might need to return to Monkey Island?

Here's my theory: the story starts at the amusement park, with the goal of getting Guybrush to run away from Chuckie again. In this phase we control both Guybrush as a child and Elaine wich still is in the "world of Monkey Island". At that moment someone (Largo ?) Sees Elaine and discovers the true power of Big Whoop.
This prologue ends with the beginning of Curse, with Guybrush in the autoscript car lost in the ocean.
There is a time jump of many years, and now we are in the real world. Guybrush, now 50 years old (here is that insistence of the biographical element to which Dave always mentions ...) is recalled by Murray to "return to Monkey Island": in fact, during his absence a form of cruel dictatorship has been established that uses the powerful black magic of the seals (Goetia) and that has imprisoned Lechuk, taking over his crew of ghosts. This interpretation is deducible from the strange seals that appear in several images (the ghost that loads the ship, the courthouse, the streets of Melee) attributable to this species of new culture or power that has settled in the Caribbean and that gives great importance to the keys, as seen in the blacksmith screen and the painting in the courtroom. Maybe they are the keys to accessing the true power of Big Whoop, which has to do with time?
Anyway this 50-year-old Guybrush returns to Melee, having forgotten most of his past as a pirate, and must therefore first try to remember who he was and then try to end the power of this new dictatorship, with the help of Elaine and Lechuck himself.
I imagine there may be numerous "time travel" or paradoxes, similar to that old design document posted by Ron in 2020, "Time Fly".

Edited May 9, 2022 by DM81
Spelling

[KestrelPi]

1 hour ago, DM81 said:

Here's my theory: the story starts at the amusement park, with the goal of getting Guybrush to run away from Chuckie again. In this phase we control both Guybrush as a child and Elaine wich still is in the "world of Monkey Island". At that moment someone (Largo ?) Sees Elaine and discovers the true power of Big Whoop.
This prologue ends with the beginning of Curse, with Guybrush in the autoscript car lost in the ocean.
There is a time jump of many years, and now we are in the real world. Guybrush, now 50 years old (here is that insistence of the biographical element to which Dave always mentions ...) is recalled by Murray to "return to Monkey Island": in fact, during his absence a form of cruel dictatorship has been established that uses the powerful black magic of the seals (Goetia) and that has imprisoned Lechuk, taking over his crew of ghosts. This interpretation is deducible from the strange seals that appear in several images (the ghost that loads the ship, the courthouse, the streets of Melee) attributable to this species of new culture or power that has settled in the Caribbean and that gives great importance to the keys, as seen in the blacksmith screen and the painting in the courtroom. Maybe they are the keys to accessing the true power of Big Whoop, which has to do with time?
Anyway this 50-year-old Guybrush returns to Melee, having forgotten most of his past as a pirate, and must therefore first try to remember who he was and then try to end the power of this new dictatorship, with the help of Elaine and Lechuck himself.
I imagine there may be numerous "time travel" or paradoxes, similar to that old design document posted by Ron in 2020, "Time Fly".

 

Re: TimeFly I'd really enjoy it if this is the sort of weirdness Return ends up dealing in.

[ThunderPeel2001]

4 hours ago, Vainamoinen said:

Just what I thought. If CMI is canon, Stan can't be in ReMI. Well, if someone cuts a hole into the left and right side of his confinement, we would have a wildly hand waving coffin, which would be hilarious and wouldn't break canon.

There’s no reason Guybrush can’t talk to Stan in his coffin and decide to leave him there. There’s no reason Stan can’t be let out of his coffin only to be trapped again at the end of the game.
 

When we thought the game might be set in Hell (per the I final MI3 plan) it also would have made sense that Stan was down there, after dying in his coffin. But was rejected by Hell for being too annoying (I like this idea). 

 

There’s so many ways a character and start in a location and end in the same location. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

3 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

There’s no reason Guybrush can’t talk to Stan in his coffin and decide to leave him there. There’s no reason Stan can’t be let out of his coffin only to be trapped again at the end of the game.
 

When we thought the game might be set in Hell (per the I final MI3 plan) it also would have made sense that Stan was down there, after dying in his coffin. But was rejected by Hell for being too annoying (I like this idea). 

 

There’s so many ways a character and start in a location and end in the same location. 

Yes, not to mention the possibility of some sort of time jump. But I think the situation of Stan being inside a coffin since MI2 and somehow getting transported to Blood Island and somehow not dying in the intervening time is already ridiculous enough that you could handwave ANY explanation for it. It would be a kind of fun joke payoff if we found out in ReMI that the coffin in CMI is actually a completely different coffin that he's ended up in for another, unrelated reason.

[MurraySchull]

MI2 - Guybrush locks Stan in the coffin.

 

ReMI - Stan shows up in hell just as Ron Gilbert planned. Turns out he died while trapped in the coffin. Guybrush has to send Stan back to life somehow.

 

CMI - Stan breaks free from the coffin. In his opening speech to Guybrush, he says "I'm one of the lucky ones. I've been dead!"

 

It all fits! 😎

 

 

(Also Guybrush technically never tells Stan his name in MI1/2, making his "Of course! Guybrush Threepwood!" line a continuity error. Maybe ReMI could fix that by introducing them to each other properly!)