Return to Monkey Island

[ThunderPeel2001]

19 hours ago, demone said:

Going back to Elaine though, I think I loved her portrayal in Tales the most because of how it weighed her intelligence and resourcefulness against LeChuck's malice, and Guybrush's effectiveness as the protagonist, a little more evenly.

 

Ah, you make a good argument. It's been ages since I played Tales but I remember enjoying the character stuff. I wanted there to be more of an emotional conflict within LeChuck, too.

[Vainamoinen]

Same thing that drove me up the wall in Firefly's "The Message" episode though: Elaine has a plan, but she doesn't tell Guybrush, thereby infantilizing her husband. It's definitely not nearly as bad as punching him four times in the opening cinematic, but EMI and ToMI both share the problem that Elaine and Guybrush are never a team, never equal partners in the thing they're doing.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I think their dynamic in EMI is one of their most believable (in terms of performance). There's actual chemistry between the performances. (Admittedly I've not played it all the way through since it came out, but rewatching a few videos recently made me realise how much better suited Charity James's voice is next to Dom's.)

 

Anyway... 

Edited June 16, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[Knight Owl]

This is super interesting. I would have thought the team pushed for using the old logo, but it was a good decision nonetheless I think!

[BillyCheers]

2 hours ago, Knight Owl said:

This is super interesting. I would have thought the team pushed for using the old logo, but it was a good decision nonetheless I think!

Interesting indeed! Thanks for sharing.

Although it doesn’t necessarily mean that he was/would’ve been against that decision. Maybe he didn’t even thought about it, before Disney made it and liked the decision. 🤷‍♂️

It somehow always seemed to me, that he’s really fond of the logo. I even remember to have read somewhere long time ago, that he did the first draft for it (but maybe I dreamed it or sth like that… 😅). 

[demone]

On 6/16/2022 at 11:28 AM, Vainamoinen said:

Same thing that drove me up the wall in Firefly's "The Message" episode though: Elaine has a plan, but she doesn't tell Guybrush, thereby infantilizing her husband. It's definitely not nearly as bad as punching him four times in the opening cinematic, but EMI and ToMI both share the problem that Elaine and Guybrush are never a team, never equal partners in the thing they're doing.

But what was her plan exactly? Despite Elaine claiming to have one, I don't think it was more than keeping an eye on LeChuck, and that much she divulged to Guybrush at the end of the second chapter. Afterwards, she was clearly taken over by the pox and there is an extreme implication that LeChuck had more of an influence over her than expected due to his voodoo trust artifact.

 

Overall and with all due respect, I don't agree with you at all; there is one amazing piece of storytelling in Tales and that is Elaine's uncursed wedding ring, which she gives to Guybrush in the second chapter. It was Elaine's subtle way of saying "trust me" and it rings (no pun intended) true throughout the rest of the game. Despite all of Guybrush's bumbling's, he always manages to keep that ring safe and is even used as the final puzzle for him to come back to life. Even observing the ring throughout that game, Guybrush's observations make it clear how much it means to him to keep it safe because it represents Elaine and his connection to her.

 

Elaine and Guybrush were a team in that game because, at that point in their relationship, there was built in trust. In some ways, that's what relationships and marriages are; never truly knowing what the other person is thinking at all times, but trusting them enough to be their in own person. 

 

Again, I cannot compliment Tales enough for its amazing storytelling. 

 

Side note: @JakeI actually didn't realize you were the same Jake that worked on Tales (stupid me lol). I still remember when you responded to my questions on the old Telltale forums for Tales of Monkey Island over 13 years ago. Great to see you here and thank you for delivering an amazing game.

Edited June 18, 2022 by demone

[Jake]

1 hour ago, demone said:

Side note: @JakeI actually didn't realize you were the same Jake that worked on Tales (stupid me lol). I still remember when you responded to my questions on the old Telltale forums for Tales of Monkey Island over 13 years ago. Great to see you here and thank you for delivering an amazing game.

Haha thank you! I’ve always been here. I was on Mojo and these forums for years before working at telltale

[demone]

7 minutes ago, Jake said:

Haha thank you! I’ve always been here. I was on Mojo and these forums for years before working at telltale

I guess I never noticed since I only just recently joined the forums after Return to Monkey Island was announced lol. Gotta admit, feels a little surreal to be talking with a game developer from a previous MI game in anticipation for a new MI game, but I think is also indicative of how special this upcoming game truly is. Full circle some might say.

Edited June 18, 2022 by demone

[OzzieMonkey]

A thought occurred to me... assuming that most of Ron's 2013 blog doesn't completely hold, what are the chances that we see any reviews of the game before it releases? One of his points was that he didn't want the press getting a hold of the game before we did, which I can understand, especially if he reveals the Secret; I can just imagine some rookie journalist with no background in the rest of the series being assigned the game to write about, and spoiling it outright in a review because they don't understand its significance. I wonder if he would make some exceptions, such as allowing Mixnmojo to review it early...how ould the staff here feel about such a big responsibility? I imagine though that because Ron is required to work with Disney on this, that they would have final say on something like that as I would guess it's outside of the creative freedom part of their agreement. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by OzzieMonkey

[KestrelPi]

32 minutes ago, OzzieMonkey said:

 I wonder if he would make some exceptions, such as allowing Mixnmojo to review it early...how ould the staff here feel about such a big responsibility?

This would largely be Devolver's decision, I suspect. But personally I think we should experience the release same as everyone else. While having a website sometimes gives Mojo access that other's don't have, I think we're best as a collection of fans, experiencing things in the same way as fans.

Like... being part of the Double Fine community moderation team means that sometimes I get access to information and things ahead of time, and it's a double edged sword honestly. It's nice to get the scoop on some stuff, but it's hard to hold onto that and not be able to discuss it with the rest of the community, especially when you see something a long way ahead of time. You have to sort of form a little mini-community with the people who also got  the early look, and that can feel uncomfortably cliquey. And when you're looking at work in progress, there's a definite trade-off between the fun of seeing something early, and unpolished, and maybe with some interesting bugs or flaws, and seeing something pristine for the first time as a fan is expected to.

Not that that last part is a concern in this situation, but still, I think there's a certain niceness to most of the Mojo contributors experiencing stuff at the same time as everyone else.

 

 

[OzzieMonkey]

13 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

This would largely be Devolver's decision, I suspect. But personally I think we should experience the release same as everyone else. While having a website sometimes gives Mojo access that other's don't have, I think we're best as a collection of fans, experiencing things in the same way as fans.

Like... being part of the Double Fine community moderation team means that sometimes I get access to information and things ahead of time, and it's a double edged sword honestly. It's nice to get the scoop on some stuff, but it's hard to hold onto that and not be able to discuss it with the rest of the community, especially when you see something a long way ahead of time. You have to sort of form a little mini-community with the people who also got  the early look, and that can feel uncomfortably cliquey. And when you're looking at work in progress, there's a definite trade-off between the fun of seeing something early, and unpolished, and maybe with some interesting bugs or flaws, and seeing something pristine for the first time as a fan is expected to.

Not that that last part is a concern in this situation, but still, I think there's a certain niceness to most of the Mojo contributors experiencing stuff at the same time as everyone else.

 

 

Oh yeah, I can understand that. Balancing the trade off of insider information with the isolation it brings is definitely a tricky balancing act. I have the tiniest bit of experience with that in that for about a year or so I wrote for a short-lived online magazine and got to review a few of Telltale's episodes, and the part I relate to the most in your post is what you said about experiencing an unpolished build of a game. I don't think it was ever a hugely unfinished copy that I had to write about, but there were certainly aspects that weren't done yet and it made me wonder if the experience was somewhat tainted. As a fan, I think I would regret seeing something like a pre-alpha build of ReMI because it would lack a lot of context that makes the truly big moments land the way they're intended to for an audience on a first playthrough. 

With all that said, I do remember reading Mojo's reviews of the Tales episodes in advance of their release and really enjoying the first impressions they gave off while keeping enough of the big surprises on lock so as not to blow anything. It built the excitement for finally getting to play it myself, which is usually the main reason I read reviews for something I know I'm already on bored for; Mojo's always been very good at non-spoilery reviews that give you just enough to make you that much more interested; alternatively, if it's a negative review, you at least know you've been warned, and it hits differently when it's coming from them cause it's one of us saying it, you know? 

[madmardi]

8 hours ago, Jake said:

Haha thank you! I’ve always been here. I was on Mojo and these forums for years before working at telltale

 

I also want to express my appreciate @Jake for all that you did with Tales - I really enjoyed it, and thought that you guys did an amazing job. I also don't know what strings had to be pulled and what puzzle pieces had to align to make it happen, but I was (and still am) extremely grateful to have MI return to our screens again.

 

On a side note I was lurking around the Mixnmojo forums in the late 90s and I remember seeing your name a lot. When I saw that you were involved in Tales I thought that was an amazing turn of events to go from a fan to being a part of making a game happen.  Super jealous to be honest, but you did great work!

Edited June 18, 2022 by madmardi

[KestrelPi]

1 hour ago, OzzieMonkey said:

Oh yeah, I can understand that. Balancing the trade off of insider information with the isolation it brings is definitely a tricky balancing act. I have the tiniest bit of experience with that in that for about a year or so I wrote for a short-lived online magazine and got to review a few of Telltale's episodes, and the part I relate to the most in your post is what you said about experiencing an unpolished build of a game. I don't think it was ever a hugely unfinished copy that I had to write about, but there were certainly aspects that weren't done yet and it made me wonder if the experience was somewhat tainted. As a fan, I think I would regret seeing something like a pre-alpha build of ReMI because it would lack a lot of context that makes the truly big moments land the way they're intended to for an audience on a first playthrough. 

With all that said, I do remember reading Mojo's reviews of the Tales episodes in advance of their release and really enjoying the first impressions they gave off while keeping enough of the big surprises on lock so as not to blow anything. It built the excitement for finally getting to play it myself, which is usually the main reason I read reviews for something I know I'm already on bored for; Mojo's always been very good at non-spoilery reviews that give you just enough to make you that much more interested; alternatively, if it's a negative review, you at least know you've been warned, and it hits differently when it's coming from them cause it's one of us saying it, you know? 

 

On balance though I think I'd do it again. I think the first time you play an anticipated game is ALWAYS weird, so I definitely felt that with Psychonauts 2. So while it added to the weirdness that I played it with some music cues missing, and lots of animations unfinished, and very occasionally some voice lines missing, and a variety of bugs/polish stuff to contend with, it didn't feel too bad to me for that to be my first experience of the game.

 

By the time the game came out, I was actually really interested in re-playing it. I could see what had changed, but also with none of the baggage that playing an anticipated game for the first time usually comes with. The game that a game actually is, is never the same as the weird amorphous blob of a game in your head, so when you first play it the reality is always competing (unfairly) with that idealised version in your head.

I expect the same will happen with ReMI. The first time I play it it'll be weird, because I have all these expectations about what I'm going to get and none of them are going to be QUITE matched, I'm sure. It'll take a couple of play throughs in order for me to be able to meet the game on its own terms. So yeah, the actual experiencing the unpolished version of the game is actually quite nice, because your expectations are automatically lowered by knowing it's incomplete, and then by the time you get to replay it your expectations are set appropriately.

 

The bit I like less is just not being able to SAY anything. Just having to sit on it for however long, instead of experience it as a kind of communal event.

[ThunderPeel2001]

1 hour ago, KestrelPi said:

The first time I play it it'll be weird, because I have all these expectations about what I'm going to get and none of them are going to be QUITE matched

 

Yep. That was literally my experience of Monkey Island 2. I think Curse was so delightful because I didn't have expectations (and it was delightful).

 

Sequels are always competing with your memories, too, which are very different to reality.

[Knight Owl]

2 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

 

On balance though I think I'd do it again. I think the first time you play an anticipated game is ALWAYS weird, so I definitely felt that with Psychonauts 2. So while it added to the weirdness that I played it with some music cues missing, and lots of animations unfinished, and very occasionally some voice lines missing, and a variety of bugs/polish stuff to contend with, it didn't feel too bad to me for that to be my first experience of the game.

That's so awesome that you got to play Psychonauts 2 early! It's definitely one of my favorite games of all time. Can I ask, when did you get to play it?

[KestrelPi]

1 hour ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Yep. That was literally my experience of Monkey Island 2. I think Curse was so delightful because I didn't have expectations (and it was delightful).

 

Sequels are always competing with your memories, too, which are very different to reality.

Yeah, that's right competing with your memories which are all the condensed highlights (and maybe one or two low points) and your imagined ideal game which is perfect, but also isn't real.

[KestrelPi]

58 minutes ago, Knight Owl said:

That's so awesome that you got to play Psychonauts 2 early! It's definitely one of my favorite games of all time. Can I ask, when did you get to play it?

I played it about 6 months before it came out. For many of their games they do a 'friends and family' playtest period of a couple of weeks. Almost all the speech was in, and the gameplay was pretty much locked down, it was mainly cutscene polish and minor bugs at that point that were holding it up, but I remember we also pointed out some plot elements we were a little confused about toward the end of the game that meant that they added a little dialogue later on to clarify some stuff. I think Tim talks about it in one of the videos.

 

My best video game boast is that I'm in the credits for Psychonauts 2 three times - once as a community moderator, once as a playtester, and once as a backer

[ThunderPeel2001]

16 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

My best video game boast is that I'm in the credits for Psychonauts 2 three times - once as a community moderator, once as a playtester, and once as a backer

 

Nice. It is an utterly magnificent game. Can you remember what they added?

I still want them to redo the first game with the same graphical fidelity as the sequel. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

2 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Nice. It is an utterly magnificent game. Can you remember what they added?

I still want them to redo the first game with the same graphical fidelity as the sequel. 

It was real subtle stuff. I think it might have been around some confusion to to with the order of events of how things went down in Grulovia?

 

Personally I can't see them remastering/remaking the first game any time soon when there's so much new stuff they'd want to be doing. It's a nice dream but if there's one thing good I want to come from the Microsoft deal it's that I'm hoping that the team now get a decade or two of much greater freedom in the games they can get made because of not having to worry about who will fund them, and it feels like a bit of a wasted opportunity to spend some of that time touching up an old game.

[ThunderPeel2001]

57 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

It's a nice dream but if there's one thing good I want to come from the Microsoft deal it's that I'm hoping that the team now get a decade or two of much greater freedom in the games they can get made because of not having to worry about who will fund them, and it feels like a bit of a wasted opportunity to spend some of that time touching up an old game.

 

I know... but we wants it!

 

[Vainamoinen]

19 hours ago, Knight Owl said:

This is super interesting. I would have thought the team pushed for using the old logo, but it was a good decision nonetheless I think!

 

And here I was thinking ... with just a teensy bit of rearrangement, they could have made a stylized key out of the o of Monkey and the I of island.

 

That was a freebie, Disney! Next one's going to cost ya.

 

URhhghhhhhnnnn slow weekend. I'd like some news. 🆕

[Toymafia88]

Random thought i just had. What if Return to Monkey Island will be shown at D23 expo in September for a October/November release.

 

It's a disney property now so who knows...

[OzzieMonkey]

41 minutes ago, Toymafia88 said:

Random thought i just had. What if Return to Monkey Island will be shown at D23 expo in September for a October/November release.

 

It's a disney property now so who knows...

I think that's highly unlikely, purely because that's where they show off all their new streaming content and whatever new Star Wars/Marvel stuff is coming out. Monkey Island would get lost in the shuffle.

[KestrelPi]

Finally got round to finishing Thimbleweed Park and I know a couple of people were curious what I'd make of it so here are my non-spoilery thoughts:

 

* I think the game looks and sounds great. Don't love all of the voice acting, but generally think it achieves a good aesthetic, even if that kind of bobblehead character style isn't one I'm particularly fond of.

 

* I don't think the game has a lot of great puzzles. I got stuck and used the hint line quite a few times, and 90% of the time it wasn't because there was a clever piece of logic I hadn't worked out, but more like I hadn't tried one particular thing with one particular character, or there was an item I'd missed which was hard to get to. In particular, the middle of the game I really felt had a lot of busywork to it any not a lot of actual nice 'a ha!' moments.

lengthy example:

 

Spoiler

There's a puzzle toward the end of the game where you need to get the four pages back into Ransome's book. No idea why it's four pages, because they're all just in the safe, but no, you have to pick up the four pages. Why four? No particular reason.

 

One of the pages gets blown away. That's fine, adds a complication to the puzzle. It's not hard to work out that you need to use the trampoline to get to it, and once you realise you can do it from the steps you've basically worked out the puzzle. That on it's own is a fine puzzle. You have to use the trampoline and do it from the steps.

 

But then the trampoline isn't close enough. No problem, it's trivial to work out you need to push the trampoline closer to the steps (what else could the solution be?) so it's starting to feel like a chore.

 

But then Ransome says he needs a spotter. Why Ransome is suddenly incredibly health and safety conscious I've no idea, and I've also no idea what this adds to the puzzle except for the busywork of having to bring someone else into the scene, so now I'm just frustrated that this puzzle that I figured out several minutes ago is making me go through these very perfunctory extra steps, it feels like a very cheap way of extending a puzzle.

And I feel like lots of the puzzles in the game do that. It's not that you have to figure out the clever lateral thing to make the puzzle work. There's not a lot of 'padlock the door to climb the chain' here, or 'pass the grog from mug to mug' but there's an awful lot of 'move this person here and that person here and pass these objects between this person and that and get that book from there' kind of tasks that take time, but don't have any real thinking involved.

 

* The final parts of the game I think actually did have some nice puzzles in them.

 

* I do think the character work overall was a little bit shallow. The most developed arc was clearly Dolores, and I liked that character, and I don't know if I'd have prefered a more focused game with just the one lead character, than the character switching.

 

* I didn't find the game particularly funny, but that's mainly I think because I'm not super fond of the sort of self-referential thing this was going for. Characters like Ransome really don't do anything for me, also.

 

* if this sounds a little negative I'd say that my overall impression of the game is that I had a decent but perhaps slightly underwhelming time with it.

And my spoilery thoughts:

 

Spoiler

If a game is gonna be all self-referency and meta like this one is, then it might as well justify that with an ending like this one had. I suppose I didn't mind the way it ended, and it actually made me like the self-referential jokes a bit more than maybe I otherwise would have... buuuut I still think on balance I would prefer it if this wasn't a game about adventure games.

I did enjoy that the kickstarter video was the solution to the last puzzle. If it's going to get that meta it might as well go all out with it.

 

 

After this, I started my replay of Tales of Monkey Island. While I'm still being critical:

 

* First of all, enjoying it over all.

 

* That control scheme is nooot working for me in 2022

 

* I think this is probably to do with there being size limitations on the game for the Wii, but I forgot this game does that telltale thing I really dislike which is to give a dialogue choice and then have the characters either deliver the same response no matter what the line was, or actually just read out a completely different line which only slightly resembles the dialogue choice I picked. When I pick a line in a Monkey Island game it's because I want to hear Dominic Armato read that line!

 

* Whoof, yes, this is still the worst version of the main theme to me. It's just the MI1 version, but not even sounding as good as the MI1CD edition, and worst of all, it just ends abruptly, in a weird place. I forgot about that.

 

* The puzzles are a bit trickier than I remember. I remember it as being a kind of easy game, but I've definitely had to think a few times. I've turned hint frequency all the way down. I've been enjoying the difficulty level so far.

 

* I think it can be forgiven for reusing character models for minor characters, I just wish this wasn't also true of ones which would become recurring characters like Winslow.

* I'm quite enjoying the music implentation, for what it is. I forgot about the dynamic parts of the soundtrack, it's nice.

[Jake]

31 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

That control scheme is nooot working for me in 2022

It’s rough  The later telltale games do away with pretending to be point and click at all, and the earlier telltale games ARE point and click, but this middle ground of fake-direct-control-but-in-a-point-and-click-world is so rough to go back to. Unfortunately it includes Tales of MI and Sam & Max Season 3, two of my favorite Telltale games. 
 

33 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

* I think this is probably to do with there being size limitations on the game for the Wii, but I forgot this game does that telltale thing I really dislike which is to give a dialogue choice and then have the characters either deliver the same response no matter what the line was, or actually just read out a completely different line which only slightly resembles the dialogue choice I picked.

I think it’s inaccurate to call this a “telltale thing,” as it only truly happens in Tales of Monkey Island and was 100% due to size limitations of WiiWare games. In the Telltale Sam & Max games for example, the characters say what you pick with very few shortcuts taken (unless it’s a joke that your choice is subverted). Even the later Tales of MI chapters drop this, because it turned out to not save much space but created a notably bad experience. Telltale had plenty of cut corners but this wasn’t actually regularly one of them, it just really sticks out when it occurs, especially in Tales of MI chapter 1.

 

37 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

Whoof, yes, this is still the worst version of the main theme to me. It's just the MI1 version, but not even sounding as good as the MI1CD edition, and worst of all, it just ends abruptly, in a weird place. I forgot about that

I have no memory of it ending in a weird place, but agree it’s a sad arrangement. I think the music in Tales is under-appreciated because the actual final production of it is done so cheaply, but much of the composition and style of it is really good. The main theme, not as much.  
 

39 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

The puzzles are a bit trickier than I remember. I remember it as being a kind of easy game, but I've definitely had to think a few times. I've turned hint frequency all the way down. I've been enjoying the difficulty level so far.

I replayed all of Tales last month and had the same reaction. Even when working on it I felt like the puzzles were a little lightweight but replaying it, they’re way more legit than I remember. The presence of jungle mazes is never ever my favorite, but maybe with those aside, I think time has been kind to Tales’ difficulty level. 
 

41 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

I think it can be forgiven for reusing character models for minor characters, I just wish this wasn't also true of ones which would become recurring characters like Winslow.

The reuse will always drive me crazy. It’s a thing that Telltale was known for (and was done because new character rigs and acting animation suites are actually very expensive to produce) but in Tales it went into absolute overdrive. The combination of the cast size needed for just the main characters, plus the Wii’s 40 megabyte limit for downloadable games, made it nasty. 
 

As you said Winslow is one of the more egregious ones. I don’t think it was known that he’d be a recurring character until the season was underway (but even if it was know, I don’t think he would have got a new model because we were out of both budget and disk space).

 

44 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

I'm quite enjoying the music implentation, for what it is. I forgot about the dynamic parts of the soundtrack, it's nice.

Same, I was surprised on replay to be reminded of how much there was. Probably the most music interactivity in any Telltale game? I know the team worked hard to do it. There’s no formal interactive music tools in Telltale’s pipeline, or weren’t until post 2013 when I left, so instead gameplay programmers had to write their own music managers in LUA. That code got pretty advanced in Tales and Sam & Max S3, but was mostly gone by The Walking Dead, when music had devolved back down to largely being single loops or fire-and-forget stingers. 
 

I like that flotsam town’s music changes as you walk around, and then changes again when the pox blows in.