JK: Jedi Academy Info, Pics and Discussion! (ancient)

[StriderPrime00]

I didn't read the whole thing so I don't know if this was mentioned before, but I thought the saber combat system in Jediknight Outcast needed some improvement. The only 1 thing that I ask to be implemented that might make the game much more managable in the saber combat system is a "lock-on" mode.

 

I don't know if anyone of you guys have played 3D fighters like Tekken, Virtua Fighter or Soul Calibur, but the combat system basically have the 2 fighters face each other at all times. This allows the combat system to stay focus on the combat and not with making sure you are facing your opponent correctly. Since this game is using either a 1st or 3rd person view point, the lock-on system can be similar to how the latest zelda game implements it. When there are mulitple enemies around you, you can choose to do a general wide range attack(maybe a weak horizontal swing), or you can focus your attack one at a time using the lock-on feature. Like in Zelda, Lock-on can only work when you are within melee range, this will encourage the use of the lightsaber in close range, but prevent cheap aiming in long range combat. To switch to a different oppenent, a player can simply click a button and it will lock-on to the next opponent in melee range.

 

The exclusive one on one battle in the MP mode of JK2 was a nice idea, but I don't think it was necessary. I rather run to a force field arena and keep the force feild up until one of us die, that would be more realistic, but would require more work on the level designer. I think the Lock-On system can really make the combat in the new JK games much more complex without the loose controls of trying to aim and fight with a saber.

 

I hope guys will consider this and try to implement a simple form of this before releasing JK: Jedi Acedemy. Then in Jedi Knight 3, you can design a more complex system using the Lock-on system.

Finally, I also think it is a good idea to keep the combat and force the same in multiplayer and single player mode.

[Solo4114]

I actually really enjoyed the SP game in JK2 (well, except for the ending -- rather anti-climactic there...). I thought that, overall, the levels were well designed, interesting to play in, and evocative of the Star Wars experience. The lightsabre combat was fun, though I've heard that the collision was rather random. That's probably more due to the underlying code, though.

 

The one area where things seemed a little weak was the script itself. I don't mean coding script, I mean the dialogue. The voice acting itself was great (I was actually surprised at how well they did Luke's voice -- it's rare that games capture the feel of an actor's voice), but some of the dialogue just seemed a little...I dunno....skimpy? Aspects of the story seemed a little less cinematic than they could have been, in particular, the confrontations with Galak and Desann (and to a lesser degree, Tavion). I did like that the story had fewer bad guys than JK1 (which really DID feel like you were just going up against level bosses at times). One thing I really DID like was the concept of the reborn and shadow troopers. This added a nice element of enemy sabre and force wielders who weren't quite "bosses."

 

What I'd like to see in SP next time around is perhaps less of a "level" feel to things (where you're going from point A to B) and more of an "environment" feel, where you run throughout a level performing various tasks. This is, of course, a VERY tough thing to do while maintaining immersion in the game environment. You have to create tasks that are meaningful, that are not contrived, and that are interesting and fun to perform. You don't want your game to degenerate into "Take this crystal of force absorbtion to Jedi Master Dingleberry and hope you can survive the Tuskens along the way" or to have yet another level of "Destroy power generators 1 through 53 while wading through hordes of stormtroopers."

 

I did think that some of the set pieces for JK2 were fantastic, though, particularly the Bespin levels and parts of the Doomgiver (was that the name?) levels. I especially remember the one where you had to duel some three or four reborn on that huge spinning shaft where you were constantly worrying about falling to your death or being disintegrated (SUCH a cool effect).

 

One thing that I think would really add to the immersion factor would be the ability to really dismember people. With the Ghoul2 engine, as we've seen with SOF2, it's possible to really do some major damage to a model in the game. I always enjoyed the animation where the trooper or whoever had their hand chopped off and they sat there clutching at the cauterized stump. I'd live to see this extended to give you the ability to bisect a person, cut of hands, forearms, upper arms, feet, shins, thighs, etc. You could do this to an extent in JK2 if you punched in the right code before playing, but the animations didn't quite support it. (I can think of plenty of times when you'd chop a trooper in half and both halves of the trooper would still be moving in unison.) It's a little thing, but it helps give the sense that you're really weilding a weapon of incredible power.

 

I trust Raven to make a good SP game, though. I thoroughly enjoyed Elite Force's SP gaming as well as JK2's SP game, and I'm usually willing to forgive things like dialogue quirks, and the "boss" feeling of certain fights. Just please, PLEASE, make the final battle/duel/whatever really dramatic this time, and not quite so anticlimactic as the Desann fight. Really, when I finished it, I wanted to say, "That's IT??? I duked it out with this guy only to have Kyle shake his head at him??"

 

As far as MP goes, aside from the more minutia driven suggestions I've made, I can't stress how this game needs better CTF support. 4 maps just don't cut it. No matter how good those maps are, sooner or later, they're going to get old. I'd say release at least as many distinct CTF-native maps as DM maps this time around. I'm hoping that this "extra game mode" will be focused on this, though (IE: the objective-based gameplay style).

 

I'd love to see more support for the mod community, including the ability to add your own animations (so that every player model doesn't move like Kyle does -- or whoever the hero is in this one), and the ability to truly edit the game to the point where mods can rise that will really help extend the life of the game. Let's face it, most of the mods we got with JK2 were tweaks to existing gameplay modes, or pure graphical tweaks. (IE: My sabres are more powerful now! My sabres look more like the movies now! You can fire an entire stormtrooper clip in one shot now!) I've got faith in mods like AOTC:TC, but it'd be nice to see more ability for mods like that to arise.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping things will work out for the best. I predict that the community will love the game at first, but after a while, will start picking it apart and finding its flaws. What will be the sign of a truly successful game is not that it will have flaws, but that the flaws are things so minor as to only warrant mods to fix, and not major patches. Now, wether that was true or not with JK2 is a matter of debate, but I think the sign of a good game will be that the community as a whole (or at least a sizeable majority) will feel that the changes needed/wanted are minor and can be modded around; or, perhaps to put it better, that the changes are simply WANTED and not NEEDED. IE: The ability to grab ledges, the ability to have a sabre light up a room, etc.; not that a certain move is drastically overpowered, that a major exploit exists, etc.

[ryudom]

lock on targeting?? NEVER!!! this is an FPS!! not zelda, not a fighter, an FPS! lock on won't work in work in JA

[lonepadawan]

I have some q.s about the "create a jedi" thing. Not really aimed at anyone just speculation. Some have already been answered (The press release said you could choose your hilt)

 

Can you-

 

1) Use it in MP AS WELL AS, normal and classic models.

 

2)Can we make models and skin for it. They say you can create models and NPCs by clicking and dragging. Would we be able to model new species, pieces of clothing and hilts for use in SP and MP. Could I play the SP campaign with my own face on the jedi?

 

3)Can existing models be imported into it? I'm not sure about this but at least- can they be imported as models- not parts of the create a jedi kit.

 

4)Will it be used by friendly and enemy NPCs? I'd like to see dark jedi wearing different things to each other and looking different. I'd love to see variety in the jedi and dark jedi. And even in normal gun wielding enemies and (Hopefully) civillians.

[ryudom]

i'm pretty sure yes is the answer to all your questions judging by screens, articles and what changkhan said.

[Khaza]

New game mode suggestion for the multiplayer...

It would be called "The Rancor" or something similar (You probably guess by now )

Gameplay would be quite similar to the current Jedi Master:

 

First player becomes The Racor and others try to kill it (with guns.. or even sabers, but no force)

Killer of The Rancor becomes the rancor it self and the only scoring happens when killing ppl while being rancor or by killing the rancor.

[StriderPrime00]

ryudom,

 

The only thing Lock-on will do is make sure you are facing the opponent in close range combat. This game has evolved passed it FPS route since Saber combat is now 70% of the game. The controls are still FPS with strafing, shooting and jumping. You still need to aim correctly to force push someone off a cliff if you are not in melee range. If they make sure the Lock-on only works in close melee range and only with the lightsaber equiped, it wouldn't change anything except enhance the control in close range saber combat.

 

Anyway, when you are that close, lock on isn't necessary to shoot or to use a force power for someone in front of you, but if you are using a saber weapon that produces different slashes depending on how your hit up, down, left, right, and all diagonals, the lock-on will help. Of course, that will also mean that auto-block will have to be replaced with a manual block button.

 

Basically, if you want a deep Saber fighting system, you need some kind of lock-on, otherwise, it will be hard to control. At least, I can't see it being easier any other way without being sloppy.

[Guest Jolts]

It worked in obiwan, it was an option also, use it if you want.

[boinga1]

no thanks...not for me...imagine lock on against DFA...you'd get so confused, that camera moving to track the dude over your head....anyway, what if there are like 5 guys around you? then what?

[Emon]

What he said:

 

Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]

Sorry my answers have stopped coming, but we're in super crunch mode here and I just don't have time to answer any more... I'm sure LucasArts will continue to release info about the game and I'll be happy to support the community once it's released, but until then I need to work on actually making the game... hope you all understand!

 

What he meant:

 

Holy **** I don't have time to sort through two dozen pages of spam and useless posts to find a few good suggestions!!

 

[CanadianSurfer]

Make the game, please I insist on not posting.

[StriderPrime00]

no thanks...not for me...imagine lock on against DFA...you'd get so confused, that camera moving to track the dude over your head....

 

Yeah, it can be confusing if there is someone jumping over you back and forth, but a very simple solution to quick jump and hard turn is to simply break out of the lock-on. So any hard turns, or manuvers will break out of the lock-on. To relock-on you have to face towards your opponent and lock back on. Or they can redesign the jumps to take up force powers, so your opponents can not do wild jumping back and forth so often. It will eat up the force power and leave them powerless to use the force.

 

anyway, what if there are like 5 guys around you? then what?

 

The lock-on is done manually, so if you don't want to lock-on to face 5 opponent, then just don't lock-on. You can use the Horizontal Slash to Guesstimate attacks, which can be useful in a fleeing situation. Or you can switch to each of the 5 opponent with a press of a button. For example - using the standard W = up, S = down, A = left, and D = right, I can probably map lock-on to the buttons Q and E. When I press Q, the lock-on target will cycle to the enemies on the left and if I press E, the lock-on target will cycle to the Right. If I want to defeat the right most opponent, I just press E a few times to cycle to him. Then I can try to take him out by force pushing him out of the way, then I press Q quickly to go to the guy on the left of him and try to force Choke him. While the guys I just push down and choke is recovering, I will only need to deal with 3 attackers for a few seconds, etc, etc. To release the Lock-on, press R. This will increase my chances of winning and would definitely make the game more fun, responsive, and providing me more control over the situation.

 

I'm not sure if you guys have taken martial arts before, but if you are face in a situation where there are 5 guys vs. 1 guy, it is best to position yourself so that you can deal with the members of the group, one at a time. Which means encircling them, distracting one while you attack the other. Get out of the middle so all your enemies are in your field of vision.

 

Oh yeah, make the force power selection like Half Life, where a few powers are cycled thru depending on how many times you hit key 1-5. This way I don't have to map all the force powers all over. Just use the Half Life Weapon selection system for Jedi powers and weapons =)

[12345678]

gotta love all the people who keep saying "dudethisisafpsyoucanthavethiscoolfeaturego playzelda"

 

how can people with such miniscule imaginations even enjoy something like star wars?

 

rune had player lock-on, dude, and its a tps like jo.

 

fps means "first person shooter" so it doesnt strictly apply to either game, now does it?

[Dunedain]

Well, this is certainly great news! I'm looking forward to playing JK III.

I had hoped it would be done in the DOOM III engine, but that would also

delay the game by quite awhile. But for JK IV, it better be DOOM III engine

all the way!

 

A big thanks to Chang for answering questions and chatting with us a bit!

 

I have a few comments on some topics that have arisen in this thread.

 

One thing I very much hope is improved in JK III is the saber combat in

multi-player. Belgirion got it right when he said how cheap and abuseable

moves like backstab are.

 

The problem with these moves is that they let players without any real

skills who normally wouldn't even have a chance against someone who is good

with the saber, often kill them. How many times have you seen some newb

running at you backwards swinging wildly hoping to trigger a backstab?

Yes, these things can be avoided, but why should we even have to put up

with such fake non-sense? You end up often having to run around avoiding their

pathetic backwards charge which can give them a cheap kill, and it totally ruins

the immersion of what otherwise could be a really cool FFA or CTF saber match.

Which instead has a bunch of idiots running around backwards.

 

The real problem with these moves is that they don't leave the person using

them open and highly vulnerable like they really would. In a real lightsaber duel

a Jedi would never turn his back for any length of time like that. If he did,

he'd be dead very quickly.

 

The good news is that the solution is quite easy. Make it so that if someone

exposes their back like that to you (such as running backwards at you,

or if they attempt a backstab and miss, etc.) that it leaves them wide open for a

lethal blow onto their exposed rear quarter. Make the damage taken from such a

hit on the back area almost certainly fatal. Then see how eager they are to try

stupid stuff like that. When they die constantly from it and it almost

never gives them a kill, they'll stop.

 

Another very serious flaw is this kicking garbage. It's ridiculous, someone can jump

at you and hit just about every time, even if your saber is facing them and in easy

position to intercept the kick. This is completely opposite from a real duel.

Sure, it's possible to kick an opponent in a duel, we've seen it in Star Wars.

But not when the opponent has his saber in a position to easily strike

directly at you. In a real duel a kick is something you might be able

get in occasionally. In JK II, it can be spammed in a highly unrealistic way

directly at an opponent's saber and still work. If you tried that in a real saber duel,

you'd end up jumping right into a lightsaber and getting your leg cut off.

 

Once again, the solution is quite easy. Make it so any kick into the forward arc

of an opponent (say, 140 degrees centered on exact front) will be blocked and

the person kicking will take massive damage, with a chance of his leg getting

cut off (if dismemberment is turned on) if he dies in the process, unless the

following conditions are met:

 

1.) The player has just executed some special or other type of move which

leaves his saber way out of position to be able to intercept the kick from

the front (like if you catch him just as he lands a powerful overhead downward

stroke from the red stance, or he just tried DFA and his saber is extended

way out to the side for a second).

 

2.) The player's saber has been deflected back by a powerful saber blow from his

opponent, and is thus out of position for immediate blocking. Note: I'm not

talking about every time the guy's saber gets hit, but only if it's been knocked

well out of the way of it's normal position, leaving him quite open. Which wouldn't

happen very often.

 

3.) Naturally, if you are kicking the person in the back where he couldn't

block with the saber, then the kick can land.

 

This will make kicking someone still very possible, but it will require

SKILL (I love that word ) to do it now, instead of being able to spam it over

and over without deadly consequences. And you'll have to be very careful

or you'll just get yourself killed doing it.

 

Just fixing these two things would hugely improve the authenticity of the

lightsaber duels in JK III. A.) Making players who expose their backs to an

opponent be wide open to very lethal blows from their flanks/rear area (meaning

make damage *very* high when hit in these areas) and B.) Making kicks fail to

land and cause massive damage to those who foolishly try to kick a Jedi who

has his saber in position to block the kick.

 

My only other request would be to make full per polygon collision detection

active on the lightsabers themselves, as well as the bodies. So that we can have

highly accurate detection of whether a saber really hit another saber

or an opponent. This, of course, should match what is seen on screen.

So the battles both look and are, in fact, under-the-hood as realistic as possible.

With the fast systems available today, it should be doable. At least make

it an option the server can turn on so that those with fast systems will have

servers to play on where they can get the most accurate collision detection

possible during duels.

 

Thanks for listening!

 

Thoughts and comments are welcome.

[ryudom]

ugh where's spider when i need him. i'm far to lazy to go into detail about lock-on lol

[Guest Jolts]

why would you want to limit an option from yourself, and be specific when you talk about mp vs sp or both combined.

[AJL]

Originally posted by Prime

Uh, could you be more specific? I think lightsabers look great in JO. Hell, they look a lot better than the do in Star Wars: A New Hope. Besides, there are plenty of mods out there to make sabers look slightly different. What exactly don't you like?

 

If you check those screen shots of that "JK3" or any normal JK2

screenshot where those sabers are or if you go and check what

they look like ingame...

 

You should be able to see that they aren't even close to what

they look like in movies... (in EP1, 2, 5 and 6) they are maybe a

bit like in that first SW movie (EP4) but not exactly like in there

either... and anyway in there they look very different and

poor compared to later films...

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And yes i know that there are many mods which change their

look by simply changing those image files which already makes

lots of difference and in my SFX2 mod i also remade that trail

code to match that movie style "trail"

 

But the question was why doesn't the developers make them

more real to movies in the first place... (considering that they

are professionals they SHOULD be able to do that a lot better

than anyone else...)

 

Why does they CLEARLY intentionally make them differently ??

[shock ~ unnamed]

Why is it doing ANYTHING other than flailing around like a drunken retard by simply holding down forward and mouse1 considered to "require no skill"?

[AKPiggott]

I wonder if we'll see a random mission generator like in SOF2.

[Caze]

Heh, they still don't know on Gamespy what engine Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy is using.

 

http://www.gamespydaily.com/news/screenshots.asp?id=4934

[ryudom]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

Why is it doing ANYTHING other than flailing around like a drunken retard by simply holding down forward and mouse1 considered to "require no skill"?

 

just wondering where this came from...

[happydan]

theres a difference between skilled use of all the moves available, and exploiting a bug in one move *coughpush-backstabcough* i cant imagine its fun to just do exactly the same thing over and over to every player just to rack up frags. but then, i dont play to win, just to have fun... winning is just a consequence

[txa1265]

Originally posted by AKPiggott

I wonder if we'll see a random mission generator like in SOF2.

 

I asked that myself, and got a 'definitely ... don't know;-)" from Chang. I am hoping that they do. Imagine 'kill the sith' or 'kill the jedi' missions, or 'escape' or 'rescue' whetever ... nice possibilities for extended playability.

 

Mike

[happydan]

someone should convert carbonfreeze2 to a SP mission...

 

a mission generator would be cool if you had something like the carbon freeze scene randomly made. would be cool to have to chase someone or something (the big boss maybe?) with stormies popping out. the trick would be, that you HAD to keep up with the boss.

[Kurgan]

Rune nonwithstanding, I always assumed the reason for putting in a "lock on" feature in a game was because of the difficulty in making your responses quick enough in a 3d console game, using only a gamepad.

 

The idea being its too "hard" especially for beginners to be able to focus on one enemy at a time in melee. This is especially true of 3rd person 3D games for consoles, with their notoriously bad cameras.

 

As a mod, with auto blocking and lock on, it might be interesting for saber combat, but otherwise I don't think its something JK3 actually needs, considering all of your other incredible abilities.

 

Lock on would just make the game more "n00b friendly" for lack of a better term, if past complaints on the saber combat are any indication.

 

Manual blocking adds a needless extra variable to the combat system.

 

But, as I said, as a saber mod, it might be interesting...