pka54 Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 The action game claiming to be an adventure game is finally dead! Maybe now we can focus on true adventures. FT2 had more in common with Tomb Raider rathern than the first Full Throttle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin_Br Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 FT2 was already dead when it started. You know what? I hope Sam and Max 2 will be a HUGE HIT. That will show them where our interests lie. I don't understand why these goofs at LA canned FT2 right now. I mean, they shouldn't even have started production. The whole concept was all wrong. I don't know what they are thinking but they need to fire some PR or RND people there because they appearantly have no clue what they are doing. Mix action and adventure together and you'll get a game that neither the adventure fan nor the action fan wants to play. Why not? Because it's too hard to make a good balance. You're going to disappoint almost everyone. The adventure gamer wants more adventure elements, the action gamer wants more action. Sim-ple. Hey LucasArts, why don't you hire ME? --Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kei Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 After any sort of serious money/time/resources have been invested into a project, it's hard to just pull the plug. I'd guess that's why it lingered around so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remixor Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I said "Yes", but by a fairly slim margin. I honestly wasn't expecting the game to be that great, but in general I still just want more adventure games on the market. That's probably not the best philosophy though, which is why I went with the response I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I voted yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huz Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I wasn't avidly looking forward to it or anything (that's so 2000!), but I'm not glad it's been canned. I was willing to reserve judgement until nearer release, although I agree it wasn't looking particularly promising. The saddest thing is that this is more "adventures are dead!" fodder for the average gaming mag. You can't even tart them up with action elements, they'll say! Ah well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadworm222 Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I will not miss FT2. My hopes weren't really high... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpfinsa Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I'll wait until next year before I make a full judgement on this. It depends on what they're going to do with the newly freed staff. Are they going to use them to make DOTT-2, speed up Sam and Max, and work on KOTOR-2? Or are they going to use them to make 50 or so cheap Star Wars Episode III games (Jar-Jar Tennis, Kobe-Wan Basketball, Sith Tomb Raider with Padme Amidala, Yoda Stories II and the such.) If they choose the later, then I'd rather see FT2. If they chose the prior, then it might be a blessing FT2 was put to sleep. I'll wait and see. --BPF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wajus Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I voted Yesssss.... There was really nothing good I could say about this game. Hopefully this will speed up a little works on S&M2 and maybe it will give LucasArts something to think over - maybe gamers are finally fed up with excessive action elementsa and all they want is a good story rather than some gang-bang. I know I do, you know that too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I didnt know it's been cancelled... No, I'm not glad, it looked interesting to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglasmcc Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 You cant put all the blame on PR and R and D for the death (well, Ill take the Republican stance and call it a "recession" ) of adventure games. I am 28 so I remember the glory days of the late 80's to mid 90's (Space Quest 4 was the first game I ever got for the PC... ah the memories). However, most of the children and teenagers of today want "brain dead" twitch games. Now do not get me wrong. I enjoy FPS (Half Life is on my top 10 list of all time). But EVERYTHING seems to be going this route in the last 3 to 5 years. And for every FPS with decent adventure qualites (i.e. Half Life), we get 10 more Soldier of Fortune 2's. I teach middle school and, sadly, most kids dont have the passion for puzzle solving that we older adventure gamers had as children. Look at Resident Evil series (and the dozens of other games it spawned). Sure the survival horror games provided cool scares (damn devil dogs and their window jumping almost made me crap my pants the first time on the PS1 ) and were almost adventure game-ish in that it stressed exploration over action. However, they had to dumb down the puzzles and then make all the key items FLASH. Has our culture become so sad that we cant figure out we need that lighter to start a fire in the fireplace WITHOUT the lighter flashing like some neon sign? Resident Evil, while enjoyable is basically Alone in the Dark with a face lift and a lobotomy. But lets not go there. As I said before, the American consumers have shown the PR people they dont want adventure games. Back in 2001 (I think), The Longest Journey only sold 8,000 copies during the Christmas season. One of the greatest adventure games in the last 10 years and it only sells 8,000 copies !?!? If I was PR instead of an adventure game addict, I would probably push my companies toward Doom 72 instead of Gabriel Knight 4.... sign that makes me think of no more Gabriel... I must now go cry alone. P.S. Sure, Sierra will make Gabriel 4. But it will be a first person game where Gabriel has to go around a castle finding keys to unlock doors so that he can kill hundreds of vampires with his spike gun or .... once found .... the mighty Rail Gun... OHHHHHH Grace will be tranformed into some double D nympho who flashes Gabe everything he pulls out a 20 dollar bill.... NO make the bad game ideas stop....NOOOOOOO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsius Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I voted yes. I wasn't really looking forward to FT 2. If they can't do REAL adventure games, they shouldn't do them at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 It's so typical that some people on this forum have to blame the action elements for the failure of this project. I don't see how -- creatively speaking -- the genre of a game has anything to do with it. If the developers can't make it work, it has to have something to do with project management, lack of talent, whatever. I don't think anyone at LucasArts ever said "who the hell put action in this game? we've got to cancel it!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curacao Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Originally posted by Wajus all they want is a good story rather than some gang-bang. hee. No, I have nothing more to add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homoludens Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Originally posted by Marek It's so typical that some people on this forum have to blame the action elements for the failure of this project. I don't see how -- creatively speaking -- the genre of a game has anything to do with it. If the developers can't make it work, it has to have something to do with project management, lack of talent, whatever. I don't think anyone at LucasArts ever said "who the hell put action in this game? we've got to cancel it!". I see your point, but you must admit there seemed to be an inordinate amount of action in what few movies we were shown, what previews and interviews we read. Add to that that FT2 looked to be pitched towards more of a console crowd - i.e. mainstream, many of whom associate consoles with a level of action. You would think they would 'modernize' the game in a mixture of other ways while still retaining the essence of its much beloved prequel. I still speculate that it was ill-conceived from the start, but LA realized in time that it wasn't up to their standards and that it never really clicked, action sequences or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGZanthia Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Is it dead? I thought it was just freezed. Anyway, I never expected anything of thise game. I do hope they will spend their time on making S&M2 now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolzig Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 The screenshots never looked interesting, I'm happy that they cancelled this. This just shows that there may be still hope in LucasArts. All eyes turn toward S&M2:FP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kei Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Originally posted by bpfinsa I'll wait until next year before I make a full judgement on this. It depends on what they're going to do with the newly freed staff. Are they going to use them to make DOTT-2, speed up Sam and Max, and work on KOTOR-2? I doubt that anyone but Bioware would develop a sequel to KotOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javabean Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Originally posted by Erwin_Br Mix action and adventure together and you'll get a game that neither the adventure fan nor the action fan wants to play. I have a little bit different idea. Maybe we can guess that they just saw the game they were creating is not playable. I mean this time it was gonna be not an action-adventure, that is an action game with a story and a few non-action elements, but a mix like you said. When you go solving puzzles and doing conversations a part of a time and then kicking some ass another part. And the both parts were going to have the same interface, controls, and the engine, and in the end game was not playable. I mean it's no fun to play such a game And since we know "how committed they are to delivering the best quality gaming experience that we possibly can", we can expect they will not try to repeat the same mistake in the future. But what we don't know is whether they are doing to do some pure adventures in result or maybe they will just stick to action games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin_Br Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Originally posted by Marek It's so typical that some people on this forum have to blame the action elements for the failure of this project. I don't see how -- creatively speaking -- the genre of a game has anything to do with it. If the developers can't make it work, it has to have something to do with project management, lack of talent, whatever. I don't think anyone at LucasArts ever said "who the hell put action in this game? we've got to cancel it!". With all due respect, but lack of talent and bad management shouldn't be an issue at LA. It doesn't matter how good your managment works or how creative your people are when nobody wants to play your game, or rather: when people already hate your game. And that was exactly the case here. Simon J. mentioned very clearly that he didn't want to disappoint the fans. Obviously the negetive buzz around Hell on Wheels didn't go unnoticed at LA H.Q. And the negative messages we've been seeing are from adventure gamers who don't want to play a semi-adventure nor a semi-action game. IMHO most gamers will rather buy the next HL or Doom when they want action. If they want adventure they'll rather buy RunAway or some DreamCatcher title. It's very simple. --Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebsmith Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Originally posted by Erwin_Br And the negative messages we've been seeing are from adventure gamers who don't want to play a semi-adventure nor a semi-action game. IMHO most gamers will rather buy the next HL or Doom when they want action. If they want adventure they'll rather buy RunAway or some DreamCatcher title. It's very simple. I think this is a reductionist theory. Unlike some adventure purists, I don't think most people buy on the basis of genre. They buy if it's a fun game. One of the biggest selling games I can think of in recent times is GTA 3 (or Vice City). That's not pure action. There's definitely an adventure element to it (or platform element if that makes it go down easier for you). I'm disappointed that FT2 won't be made. I think if any "adventure" lent itself to adding action to a sequel, it was FT2. Even the first one had action sequences in it already! But if they had problems with it, maybe it's better it didn't come out. I seriously doubt that Simon solely made the decision based on the adventure gamers' opinion as that's just one small piece of the videogame market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin_Br Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Originally posted by pebsmith I think this is a reductionist theory. Unlike some adventure purists, I don't think most people buy on the basis of genre. They buy if it's a fun game. There are lots of people who don't like RTS games or other kinds of genres. They don't like it, they don't think it's fun, so basically they buy on the basis of genre. I know lots of people who don't like adventure games. They don't like the genre. They never buy an adventure game, because the don't like the genre. No matter how fun it could be. One of the biggest selling games I can think of in recent times is GTA 3 (or Vice City). That's not pure action. There's definitely an adventure element to it (or platform element if that makes it go down easier for you). I'm disappointed that FT2 won't be made. I think if any "adventure" lent itself to adding action to a sequel, it was FT2. Even the first one had action sequences in it already! But if they had problems with it, maybe it's better it didn't come out. I seriously doubt that Simon solely made the decision based on the adventure gamers' opinion as that's just one small piece of the videogame market. But that small piece of the videogame market are the only ones that have ever heard of the name Full Throttle. Your avarage Joe doesn't know anything about it. The only thing he knows is what he sees and that would be some horrible screenshots which were released way too early. (Not polished enough) The biggest piece of the videogame market you're talking about only buys Doom 18, Half-Life 23 and The Sims Expension Pack 201. Not some unknown title with a different, original concept. Why do you think we're having so many FPS around? They are targetting the wrong people. If LA really wanted FT2 to be a success they should have made it a full blown FPS for example. They would have to put a big label on the box saying 'Hell on Wheels uses the Doom 3 engine!' (some games magazines focus more on which technology a game uses rather than looking at the game itself!) They would lose a lot of the adventure players, but as you said that's only a small piece of the market. Instead they tried to please both, which is way too difficult. --Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpfinsa Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 I agree that LucasArts didn't cancel it because of the action. In fact, I think the action (and even the mediocre graphics) were the least of the game's problems. I'd wager that the incomplete milestones were the main factor that killed the project... not the fear of abandoning adventure purists, not the ackward presentation or not even concerns about the title ruining LA's image. When milestones are missed, costs must be recalculated. It always boils down to cash. In the end, it seems that FT2 became too expensive to create for too little benefit. --BPF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Bpfinsa makes quite a lot of sense, but I like Simon's quote about it pissing us off more than what bpfinsa said . As for the poll I voted "yes" because in all honesty I didn't like what they were doing with Full Throttle. I guess that's obvious. I'm definitely not glad that "Full Throttle 2 is finally dead" though. With any good property, especially one like Full Throttle, where you feel like you've just been told one story about a character and it isn't necesarilly the most important one, I think there's room for a good sequel, if done right. Grim, for instance, felt very done. No room there, leave it alone in its good completeness. Sam & Max or Ben, though, are never really done. Granted you have to work harder with Ben and Full Throttle than with Sam & Max, but you could do it right. That's why I could have voted no... but since I was so annoyed by the FT2 they were making, I had to vote yes. That's right, had to. Wah. Hows that for stubborn whiny fan? Originally posted by Erwin_Br I don't know what they are thinking but they need to fire some PR or RND people there because they appearantly have no clue what they are doing. I don't think the decision to go forward with Full Throttle 2 had anything to do with PR . The idea for the game was tossed around forever (I think vague notions of a FT sequel were around even when Tim Schafer was still at the company... no actual approved or possibly even officially proposed game ideas until Sean Clark's though). Who knows why it finally got approved and made now with this team. Maybe it was a political move by someone in the company? Maybe the game sounded really good on paper? Whatever it is I would hardly pin it on Public Relations, as their job is mostly to act as a conduit between the company and the press and fans Maybe PR can be blamed a little bit for the "death of adventure games" or whatever the hell you want to call it, but I don't know about that either. I'd probably be more inclined to blame nothing, claim that adventures never died but instead appared to be shrinking while instead its audience remained constant while the general public adopted gaming as normal, and be absolutely right. And full of myself and my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aranolorion Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 lets be honest. the hardcore adventure purist is getting past by, by both companies, and the gaming consciousness as a whole. Like the people who were opposed to the move to 3d, for gaming as a whole, the view is outdated, and xenophobic. The future is an inherently good thing. Full Throttle 2 could have represented a new dawn, coupled with Sam n Max 2, in adventure gaming. The focus would appear to have shifted towards action, though I still believe LA would have given us some decent puzzles. As Jake states, the FT property is not quite complete, and I feel at least another game, in the same vein as the original is needed to complete it. As an aside, I was skeptical about a beat 'em up/adventure/biking hybrid...just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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