North American Union anyone?

[Char Ell]

First, my apologies to the participants in the "It's Canada Day" thread for hijacking said thread with this topic and getting it locked. That was bad judgement on my part. I should have started a new thread like this to begin with...

 

I have a feeling this may be a very controversial topic but it's an idea I've had percolating in my head for the past couple of years and so I thought I would throw it out for the people of Ahto to comment on.

 

Considering the global economic and political situation, what if Canada, Mexico, and the USA formed a confederation/union akin to what the countries of Europe have done in forming the European Union? Does anybody like this idea? In your personal estimation does the idea have merit? I ask because I see China, India, and the European Union moving to take the leading positions in the world economy. The USA will not be able to maintain it's current position without significant changes. Now granted you may not care about the USA dropping into the middle of the pack 15 or 20 years down the road or may even rejoice at this but even if either scenario is the case what are your thoughts on the viability or need for a "North American Union?"

 

@ Hallucination - I noted that you're not up for the idea but feel free to post your thoughts again in this thread if you so desire.

[milo]

I'm sure Mexico would be all for it. Canada.....not so much.

[Samnmax221]

Americans enjoy being Americans and canadians enjoy being Canadians. When it comes to Mexico, I figure the majority of Americans and Canadians don't want to inherit more of a crime problem as we have plenty on our own.

[Mace MacLeod]

Officially, the North American Free Trade Agreement is already in place to allow our three countries the same economic access as the EU countries have to each other. Unofficially, the US will use this agreement when it suits them and ignore it when it doesn't, much like pretty much any international law. See the Softwood Lumber Issue. Protectionism is rising in the US industries and politics as it always does when the economy is going pear-shaped, so they would never go for it. Unification of Canada and the US will never occur unless that nutball Bush actually invades Canada. I could see Alberta, Saskatchewan, and maybe Manitoba going along, but everywhere else would fight tooth and nail. Quebec in particular.

 

I would advocate armed revolt against any Canadian government that endorsed a political union with the US.

[Commander Obi-Wan]

Well, if this so-called "union" happen and Canada became officially a "state" of the United States, would it be just all one state or would the provinces become states?

 

Plus, it would become a very complicated process. You know, changing currency, government, laws. Just to name a few.

 

And this may just be possible in the future, if there is Canada and U.S.A in the future.

[Hallucination]

@ Hallucination - I noted that you're not up for the idea but feel free to post your thoughts again in this thread if you so desire.

Well, one thing that could pose a problem is the different political systems (if you didn't already know, Canada is a constitutional monarchy, while the U.S. is democratic republic. I'm not too sure about Mexico.) so there would be some trouble deciding which one the union would adopt.

 

Another little issue that would arise would be our social programs. What would happen to the Universal Health Care that we canucks love so much? And then there are taxes. Last time I checked, the U.S. government seems to be a little bit underfunded, so would the American people like to see their taxes raised so that the poor would have better health care?

 

Then there's the language issue: would all languages (French, English and Spanish) be the official ones? Or would English be the only one, leaving the Mexicans and Quebecois feeling a little left out? As I recall, a few months ago Bush said he didn't like the Spanish version of your anthem, so I wonder what

he'd think about Spanish and French versions.

 

Another thing is that there is a little difference on human rights, mainly gay marriage (if you don't pay attention to Canadian politics, we have gay marriage), and it might get a little ugly coming to election time.

[ChAiNz.2da]

I vote Canadian currency... I always wanted to buy stuff with Loonies & Toonies

($1 & $2 coins respectively, for my fellow Americans who think I might be off my rocker.. hehehe)

[igyman]

I'm from Europe so I really couldn't care less for the American economic situation. It might even be a good thing if USA had some problems in that area, it might force you Americans to stop playing world domination and stop tinking you're the best. You're not, you're just as bad as the rest of the world, in some things you're even worse.

[ChAiNz.2da]

I'm from Europe so I really couldn't care less for the American economic situation. It might even be a good thing if USA had some problems in that area, it might force you Americans to stop playing world domination and stop tinking you're the best. You're not, you're just as bad as the rest of the world, in some things you're even worse.

 

hey yeah, and maybe unification would stop people from assuming and grouping ALL Americans in the same category

[Hannibal]

I'm sure Mexico would be all for it. Canada.....not so much.

 

The US not so much either.

Not only would the politician that suggested this not be re-elected they'd probably be sent to Canada or Mexico.

 

igyman - there aren't to many countries that don't think they are the "best". The difference is we really don't get to see other countries proclamations but the rest of the world get's to see ours.

 

What does that mean any way? To be the best. What are we comparing?

 

I'm happy as long as I get my fake little vote for president every 4 years and the government doesn't try to take my property away. Wait a minute...eminent domain...maybe I'm not so happy.

[mimic666]

You can say that again Igyman. The US citizen's are like some middle school to high schoolers or 18+ that think they're Adults but don't act Grown up (Think they're bad ass when they out number you, but when it's one on one it's "lets be friends", "let me grab my gun" or they just run away like the scared sissy's they are). As for the "Union" thing I won't repeat what I said in that "Canadian Independance" thread since Comander Obi-Wan basically said the same thing except I was talking about cities not states or perhaps Ontario, Quebec, etc. can be counties not cities. As Hallucination said it'll be hard to merge them not only on a political level, but on a social level as well (the Age of Consent varies from state to state in US, but from what I've looked up for Canada's it's 14 and for Mexico it's Minimum 12yrs and sometimes varies under 18yrs of age in some of Mexico's States). Canada is rather peaceful compared to US and US is rather peaceful compared to Mexico. I don't think this Union would occur.

[Hannibal]

I can see this thread is 5 seconds from being closed.

This is not a bash other peoples countries thread but if one more post does this thread will be closed too.

[Mace MacLeod]

Then I'll just get my last 2 cents in.

 

No way, no how. The US can have Quebec though. And I think Alberta is already in talks to merge with Texas.

 

And one last little tidbit:

 

The Great Canadian Whine: Waaaaaahhhhh!!!! We're a distinct society! Give us stuff or we'll leave and you'll all be sorrrrrryyyyy...!!! Waaaaaaaah!!!

 

[mimic666]

Are you talking to me Hannibal? If so I'm not bashing anyone I'm just stating facts nothing more, besides I'm an American as well so really I'm talking about myself also. So sorry if I offended anyone, from my point of view that is the way it is. So the second part of what I said, the part about the Union agree/disagree? I'd like to also add that Mexico has separated into "states" so that would mean there would be Edit: 81 states not including Canada and by the way we cannot forget America's Annexes (Puerto Rico, Cuba?)

[Hannibal]

mimic, I have no problem with your opinion, I might even agree with a part of it(I'm not saying though ).

 

Any country bashing(no matter where the poster is from) could change this thread to a flame war and we don't need that.

[Mace MacLeod]

So would it be construed as offensive to mention that being Canadian in 2006 is a little bit like being Austrian in 1938?

 

 

Note: I said "little bit".

 

[ChAiNz.2da]

^^^

Probably Luckily, in 2 more years the Canadians will be safe from the Bush & Dicks of the World..

 

<.<

>.>

 

We're not all bad.. really. Judge us not by our..ugghh.. 'politicians'

[igyman]

'politicians'

 

Well, said Chainz. My impression just improved.

[Emperor Devon]

Definitely not. The U.S. and Canada do not to inherit all of Mexico's problems. It would be great for the mexicans, but not everyone else.

[Hannibal]

IMO- The US and Canada are financially strong enough to deal with Mexico's "problems." That is we would be if we weren't paying for the Iraq thing.

 

Maybe we should have a union with India and Japan. India being a fast growing economy and Japan being an already strong one.

[EnderWiggin]

Definitely not. The U.S. and Canada do not to inherit all of Mexico's problems. It would be great for the mexicans, but not everyone else.

 

What kind of idea is that? While I am not a Mexican myself, (posting from PA, USA) I do like to keep an open mind. I'm trying to not be offensive, but your post is incredibly halfwit. When you think about it, both Americans and Canadians have just as many problems as the Mexicans do. To say that we would 'inherit' problems like mortgaged properties in Monopoly after bankrupting someone (sorry about the simile) is quite condescending of you.

 

Sorry if you took offense to this, but I personally took offense to your previous post. I would certainly consider that country bashing.

 

_EW_

[RedHawke]

Maybe we should have a union with India and Japan. India being a fast growing economy and Japan being an already strong one.

I second this...

[Char Ell]

Hmmm... Seems like this idea doesn't really have much traction 'round here.

 

I didn't want to provide too much context to begin with as I was interested in seeing where the discussion would go on its own. Now that I've read some people's thoughts and we're already on the brink of lockdown I'm thinking my purposes may have better better served by posting in the Senate Chambers instead of Ahto.

 

Using SW terminology, there is a DS way to do this and a LS way. The DS way would be one of the three countries conquering the other two. No way that is going to happen in the current environment nor is it likely to happen in the foreseeable future. I'm not advocating such a method either.

 

The LS way requires much more effort of course. Based off of the comments I've read I'm thinking some of you aren't familiar with how the European Union works. Members of the European Union are sovereign nations. They still have their own national anthems and armed forces. The EU already has 50+ years of history and as far as I can tell is still a work in progress and will continue to evolve and change as the majority of its member nations decide how to proceed in further establishing their existing confederation. So if a North American Union was patterned after the EU existing municipal, state/provincial, and national governments would remain in place. In essence another layer of government would be added above the national level. I know what you're thinking. "Not another layer of bureaucracy!"

 

Officially, the North American Free Trade Agreement is already in place to allow our three countries the same economic access as the EU countries have to each other. Unofficially, the US will use this agreement when it suits them and ignore it when it doesn't, much like pretty much any international law.

I haven't done much reading on NAFTA and its effects. I believe free trade, real free trade, between member nations would be required for a such a union to work.

As I recall, a few months ago Bush said he didn't like the Spanish version of your anthem, so I wonder what he'd think about Spanish and French versions.

Actually, the Spanish language song titled Nuestro Himno and using the music of The Star-Spangled Banner released earlier this year wasn't even an attempt at translating the English lyrics of The Star-Spangled Banner into Spanish. Nuestro Himno was some Spanish-speaking individual's attempt to fashion the American national anthem into a version that favored fostering brotherhood and unity or something along those lines.

[REDJOHNNYMIKE]

Well, I did have some witty commentary planned for this, but instead I'll go on the record saying that I am against any attempted global unionization.

[Emperor Devon]

To say that we would 'inherit' problems like mortgaged properties in Monopoly after bankrupting someone (sorry about the simile) is quite condescending of you.

 

Condescending or no, it is a fact that Mexico is a poorer country and has a higher crime rate than the U.S. or Canada. If all three countries became one, Mexico's problems would be heaped onto the U.S. and Canada. I don't see how that is an 'incredibly halfwit' statement, as it is the truth.