Achilles Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 At the risk offending any of our friends to the North...I know that this is something that has been in the wings for quite a long time. I am assuming that it's a good thing, so if it is, in fact, a bad thing, please forgive my faux pas. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061128/wl_nm/politics_quebec_dc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T7nowhere Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Thanks for posting this, this is the first I've heard of it and I'm pretty shocked. I still can't believe its real. Heh, man I hate politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 All wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Devon Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 I doubt there'll be much of an effect (for now). But there are quite a few Quebecois here. I wonder what they think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Char Ell Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 This is one of those issues that just won't go away, kind of like the Palestinian-Israeli conflict only without the bloodshed, thankfully enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSI Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Quite a shock that CIS (Whatever it's called in Star Wars) had became reality in Canada and Count Dooku even succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svösh Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 As an English minority “Anglaphone ” proud Canadian in Quebec this is a stupid ploy from our current minority Moron in office to gain support for his conservative flunkies. True Prime it's “All wording” but there is power in words. Over the past few years St jean Baptist day has been renamed to Fête nationale = {National Party}, and I would say thats misleading as is calling a Provence a Nation. A Nation would mean all encompassing Canada, not just provincial. St jean Baptist is no longer about some dead saint i could care less about it's mostly about building support for separating. Giving them this word Nation gives them power and hope and that means pretty soon it's time for another farce of a referendum. I wonder what crap they will pull this time, the first one the question was worded in such a way that it was confusing and misleading. To say no to separation you had to say yes to the question which went against your better judgment. Then the last one in a number of ridings... if you just so happened to be dead you voted for the Bloc, thats right somehow the dead voted Bloc and yet with their underhanded tactics they still lost. I can't really put in to words what I'm feeling about this, only that its a BAD thing and it's going to get worse as Harper attempts to get the bloc on his side in hopes to gain conservative votes in Quebec. No mater what the politicians do I'm always going to be Canadian first and a Quebecer second It's too bad we don't fallow New Brunswick's lead and and just be happily bilingual and leave it at that. These are my views sorry if they offend anyone, i just so happen to despise our current Prime Minister and his right wing slant on politics, and the idea of calling my home Provence a Nation, when it's clearly not. svösh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabretooth Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Oh god, the dissolution of united nations, as they were founded upon the dawn of our era, hast finally come to pass. At last, there shall be individualism, there shall be fragmentation, there shall be war. <_< >_> From what I hear, a lot of Brits are agreeing a break-up of the Kingdom, eh? A majority of marginally more than half of Brits have voted to break Scotland from the Kingdom, or something like that? Hope it never happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arátoeldar Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 As an English minority “Anglaphone ” proud Canadian in Quebec this is a stupid ploy from our current minority Moron in office to gain support for his conservative flunkies. True Prime it's “All wording” but there is power in words. Over the past few years St jean Baptist day has been renamed to Fête nationale = {National Party}, and I would say thats misleading as is calling a Provence a Nation. A Nation would mean all encompassing Canada, not just provincial. St jean Baptist is no longer about some dead saint i could care less about it's mostly about building support for separating. Giving them this word Nation gives them power and hope and that means pretty soon it's time for another farce of a referendum. I wonder what crap they will pull this time, the first one the question was worded in such a way that it was confusing and misleading. To say no to separation you had to say yes to the question which went against your better judgment. Then the last one in a number of ridings... if you just so happened to be dead you voted for the Bloc, thats right somehow the dead voted Bloc and yet with their underhanded tactics they still lost. I can't really put in to words what I'm feeling about this, only that its a BAD thing and it's going to get worse as Harper attempts to get the bloc on his side in hopes to gain conservative votes in Quebec. No mater what the politicians do I'm always going to be Canadian first and a Quebecer second It's too bad we don't fallow New Brunswick's lead and and just be happily bilingual and leave it at that. These are my views sorry if they offend anyone, i just so happen to despise our current Prime Minister and his right wing slant on politics, and the idea of calling my home Provence a Nation, when it's clearly not. svösh Well stated svösh. Political Correctness will be the death western democracies in the next 3-5 years if not sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 What would be gained by splitting Canada into two and weakening both in the process? Stupid, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Canada MUST be renamed LAIR OF THE AUTOBOTS with PRIME as its Prez Its only a matter of time.... mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 ^ Astro, you need to turn off NWN2 and get your 28 minutes of sleep for the night, though Prime would make a good Prez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupes. Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Damn, I was almost done with my reply, but my browser went crazy and blank pages kept popping up piled on... and I had to shut everything down to stop it So, I'll just say this... Despite the fact that this is only a scheme by Harper to gain more support in Québec and despite the fact that thethis motion does not give more power to Québec, I still think this is a step in the right path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth333 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 So, I'll just say this... Despite the fact that this is only a scheme by Harper to gain more support in Québec and despite the fact that thethis motion does not give more power to Québec, I still think this is a step in the right path. My short answer: I agree with coupes on this. And the word nation does not quite have the same meaning in French and English. We have several anglophone lawyers in my office and they all agree with this too. Nation in French does not necessarily relate to an entity possessing a defined territory and government but more to a group of people who share a more or less common cultural, social, linguistic,and historic background. So, there was already a nation according to this. Note that the motion does not say that "Quebec is a nation" but that "Québécois are a nation", thus it is more in line with the French definition. I think there's no reason to either celebrate or complain, no matter which side you are. For the nerds out there, here is a link to the initial debate when the motion was proposed at the House of Commons...and here is the debate preceding the vote, which includes historical arguments. I'll post my long answer later on whenever/if I find the time to do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hallucination Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Thanks for posting this, this is the first I've heard of it and I'm pretty shocked. I still can't believe its real. Heh, man I hate politicians. It's good to know that I'm not the only one who didn't know about this until now... I'm shocked, I never thought it would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Obi-Wan Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Wow. We talked about this in History class today. Interesting, but sounds like a good thing from my perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace MacLeod Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffft. All political posturing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 It means practically nothing. All it does is recognise the Quebecois as a nation within a unified Canada. It's like recognising the Cree, or the Iriquois. It's just a stupid ploy by the Conservative government to gain favour in Quebec, because they have next to none anymore in any of the other provinces.* I really don't see the big deal. It has no effect on the day-to-day life of any Canadian citizen, nor on the workings of the Canadian government. Well, not significantly enough to mean anything. And it certainly means **** to the rest of the world. *Disclaimer: I don't really know what the support for the Conservative's is like in other provinces, and no, I don't really give a damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavlos Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 From what I hear, a lot of Brits are agreeing a break-up of the Kingdom, eh? A majority of marginally more than half of Brits have voted to break Scotland from the Kingdom, or something like that? Hope it never happens. It is happening all over Europe really. The idea in European politics today is: decentralise government, and fast. But in Scotland's case, yes the SNP is gaining more supporters and there may be a declaration of independence at some point. I would like to say, however, that the Scotland would notice a significant shift in its social comforts. It receives heavy subsidies from England, which maintain its much higher social spending (30% per head more than in other parts of the UK). I consider myself to be British and a European (European more than British)... so if the Scots vote to leave this political union then, though I understand their point of view and respect their right for secession, I will be sad to see them go. What really worries me is that, though New Labour is no better than the Tories, the Scots leaving the UK would consign us to right wing politics for ever - just as it always was. Scotland is the gleaming jewel of the UK, what happens if a government spends money on public services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 ^Much like the laughable nonsense that it Welsh independence. I suspect both would shrivel and wither if made truly independent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 My short answer: I agree with coupes on this. And the word nation does not quite have the same meaning in French and English. We have several anglophone lawyers in my office and they all agree with this too. Nation in French does not necessarily relate to an entity possessing a defined territory and government but more to a group of people who share a more or less common cultural, social, linguistic,and historic background. So, there was already a nation according to this. Note that the motion does not say that "Quebec is a nation" but that "Québécois are a nation", thus it is more in line with the French definition. I think there's no reason to either celebrate or complain, no matter which side you are. 100% true. Some people started jumping around like crazy frogs scared that this was the "beginning of the end". Except that the definition of "nation" in both English and French can be quite misleading. In this, D333's clarification is a welcomed one. Nation quite litteraly means "country" in English. In French, the word "nation" is closer to the word "common culture". For example, the Kurds, which in French are a "nation", don't have a country. It means practically nothing. All it does is recognise the Quebecois as a nation within a unified Canada. It's like recognising the Cree, or the Iriquois. It's just a stupid ploy by the Conservative government to gain favour in Quebec, because they have next to none anymore in any of the other provinces.* I really don't see the big deal. It has no effect on the day-to-day life of any Canadian citizen, nor on the workings of the Canadian government. Well, not significantly enough to mean anything. And it certainly means **** to the rest of the world. Indeed it means nothing and you are also quite right that it's Harper's ploy to gain support from Québec and destabilize the Liberals' leadership run. Back to the legal sense, it means absolutely nothing. Québec never signed the 1982 constitution and it doesn't stop anyone in the province from calling upon it when they're in some trouble. ^Much like the laughable nonsense that it Welsh independence. I suspect both would shrivel and wither if made truly independent... Wow, could you be more condescending? As for the real effects of such an action...Lots of people are jumping to quick conclusions. This actually has two potential effects: 1. It gives ammo to the separation movement. People start thinking that this is the first step towards an independant country by having it recognized by "Anglo"-Canada. It would build support for them. 2. Give ammo to the federalist movement. People start realizing that their culture can be properly conserved in a united Canada as long as the government recognizes the difference between both Anglo and French Canada. It would build support for them. Which feeling will dominate? I don't know, I'm not Nostradamus. However, keep in mind that it can always go both ways. As for me personaly, which side I would be on? I say that I respect both point of views and, as the child of immigrants, understand how hard it is for the Québecois to have to protect the unique culture in a sea of anglo-saxons, considering they control a piece of land afterall. To be honest, whoever promises me that he'll bomb the crap out of Toronto, I'll follow him. Oh and add to that "lynch the Maple Leafs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XoXoXAlexOxOxO Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 To be honest, whoever promises me that he'll bomb the crap out of Toronto, I'll follow him. Oh and add to that "lynch the Maple Leafs". what's so bad about toronto ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Wow, could you be more condescending? Do you come from Wales? Have you been to the country? Seen the state it's in, the complete lack of money, infrastructure, will, or cohesion necessary to form in independant state? I think I have a right to comment on my own country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 what's so bad about toronto ? Everything Do you come from Wales? Have you been to the country? Seen the state it's in, the complete lack of money, infrastructure, will, or cohesion necessary to form in independant state? I think I have a right to comment on my own country. I do not deny you your right to comment about your own country but find your lack of nuances rather displeasing. Every country which just got independance will feel the secession backlash within the first years. Ireland for example, was quite poor for a long time, yet if you look at today, one of the countries with the best living standards in all of Europe. A real fiscal paradise some say. So neither Wales or Scotland will suddenly see a beautiful increase in living standards but this does not mean they never will. Second, if independance was all about money, I'd rather never see a country secede. Coming from an ex-french colony and living in what some of my peers consider an english colony, I can understand how it's important for a group of people to want to have the control of their own destiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavlos Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Second, if independance was all about money, I'd rather never see a country secede. Coming from an ex-french colony and living in what some of my peers consider an english colony, I can understand how it's important for a group of people to want to have the control of their own destiny. Too true . Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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