[WIP] Brotherhood of Shadow: Solomon's Revenge

[walid]

man i cant wait for this mod to realese, the first BOS was the best mod i ever have played, and know a expansion pack i cant wait.

[Emperor Devon]

I think the core of the issue relates to peoples preferances concerning information in RPG's - In that should all information within the game have a genuine use for the player in relation to quests?

 

I don't think the information contained in the datapad was DI's point, so much as how that information was conveyed.

 

Or is it acceptable for information to be used to add depth for the sake of depth? Such as the hundreds of books available for the player to read in the Elder Scrolls games.

 

With the books in the Elder Scrolls, the information contained therein was inane and of no relevance at all to anything that occurred in the game - which was part of the appeal. In contrast, the datapad here is a modicum (or at least I've gotten that impression) with which to give the player a fairly important piece of information. Presumably that's the codes at the start of it. The rest of the commentary by Roosh is fluff to make it look like something a real person would write rather than a convenient way to give the player information.

 

Personally, I've got a number of issues with it - keeping that it was a real person recording the datapad in mind, it was for what purpose? Granted, a number of people keep journals, but unless he was intending for it (the datapad) to be read by someone else there wasn't much point in him writing down an access code or brief history of Ossus. He already knew those things, and in the case of the former recording it was a needless risk.

 

Rather, I think the same amount of fluff, flavor, and information the PC needs to know could be conveyed by splitting it into several modicums. Such as an incomplete journal of Roosh's regarding his plan, a datapad entitled 'A Brief History of Ossus' or what have you he'd have kept around for pleasure reading, and something else for the code. (Without context, I'm not sure what.) I think it would make him more human if his own scribbled-down thoughts were written with only his convenience in mind, and it was shown he enjoyed reading history in his spare time.

 

Anyways, that's my two cents on the matter - I just prefer biased, incomplete and generally flawed journals when the PC runs into them. The rest of the mod looks to be coming along rather nicely.

[Gregthegen]

"Doesn't really matter if you agree or not, its Silver's Mod. Though I tend to agree with Silver, even if Matilda wants to observe the other party member's you don't learn anything about a person's intentions from what they say; you judge on action; why would she need T3 to observe? T3 isn't force sensetive, so what could he really tell Matilda?"

 

I suppose that you are right, because Matilda is mainly used for Revan's backstory anyway. Still, I do wonder what T3 did between KOTOR and TSL that made him talk so much. In the words of atton, "Shut that trash compactor up".

 

Anyway, back to the mod.

 

The assasination Missions do give KOTOR more depth, which is something that the game cannot get to full of. Is there any mission that might include HK? Who better to help you assassinate? Bah, Matilda has enough black ops background to beat HK any day.

[Scatter]

The first one blew my mind O.o If this one's that much better, don't forget the disclaimer.

personally have to disagree. felt the first mod was a little amateurish* in it's execution, and in the end, that detracted greatly from the overall quality of the mod. it was the sort of mod that i really only wanted to play the once before removing it.

 

* i really want to explain that before anyone flames: felt the original mod was an excellent piece of work all told, but there was plenty of scope for improvement (especially in the scriptwriting/dialogue). the real positives to the mod were the ambition and scope behind it. it was quite obviously a well thought out and planned mod, it just wasn't executed as well as it could have been. absolutely no shame in that given it was the first attempt to achieve something of this scale.

 

one of the most heartening aspects of this thread is reading silveredge's criticisms of his own work. my one single piece of advice to you silveredge would be to double check, and then triple check the minor details - things like spelling errors and how the dialogue actually feels (reading the dialogue out loud, pretending to be the character saying it helps immensely. you'll soon get a much better feel for more natural sounding dialogue.

 

it's the minutiae that make or break an entertainment medium no matter what it is (game, play, movie, tv show, book etc etc), and it's patently obvious you spend considerable time and effort on 'the big picture' of your mod, try not to sell your efforts short by not paying enough attention to the 'little things'.

 

i really tried to make this post as constructive as possible. i know it takes a lot of effort to do what you're doing silveredge, and in no way am i trying to cheapen or belittle that effort. i sincerely hope you take this post in the manner intended.

[Papership]

I think constructive criticism is always helpful. I doubt you’ll get flamed for it.

 

Re: "the real positives to the mod were the ambition and scope behind it."

 

The best things, I think, were the 'funnies'; i.e. the random, disgusting, useless object that somehow found its way into my inventory (that was you, right? O.o can’t think where else that came from) and the little signpost next to the droid pile, when you're doing the errands. Silver has the most awesome sense of 'subtle' humour. He definitely does pay attention to the little things. Perhaps I was so entertained by the plot that I simply did not see the amateur-ish stuff.

 

I'm sure that will be what I enjoy most about this mod too. (That and the stabby-stabby).

 

Call me easy to please if you like, but I prefer to call it excessive appreciative-ness.

 

Happy Hunting,

~Paper~

[walid]

how long did the first bos take you to create.

[Silveredge9]

I don't think the information contained in the datapad was DI's point, so much as how that information was conveyed.

 

With the books in the Elder Scrolls, the information contained therein was inane and of no relevance at all to anything that occurred in the game - which was part of the appeal. In contrast, the datapad here is a modicum (or at least I've gotten that impression) with which to give the player a fairly important piece of information. Presumably that's the codes at the start of it. The rest of the commentary by Roosh is fluff to make it look like something a real person would write rather than a convenient way to give the player information.

 

Personally, I've got a number of issues with it - keeping that it was a real person recording the datapad in mind, it was for what purpose? Granted, a number of people keep journals, but unless he was intending for it (the datapad) to be read by someone else there wasn't much point in him writing down an access code or brief history of Ossus. He already knew those things, and in the case of the former recording it was a needless risk.

 

Rather, I think the same amount of fluff, flavor, and information the PC needs to know could be conveyed by splitting it into several modicums. Such as an incomplete journal of Roosh's regarding his plan, a datapad entitled 'A Brief History of Ossus' or what have you he'd have kept around for pleasure reading, and something else for the code. (Without context, I'm not sure what.) I think it would make him more human if his own scribbled-down thoughts were written with only his convenience in mind, and it was shown he enjoyed reading history in his spare time.

 

Anyways, that's my two cents on the matter - I just prefer biased, incomplete and generally flawed journals when the PC runs into them. The rest of the mod looks to be coming along rather nicely.

In terms of how the character would logically react if he didn't have the misfortune of being made of pixels, you make perfect sense. And it's something I've appeared to have overlooked.

 

But concerning the gameplay mechanics of the whole thing, how would you suggest this would be implemented into a practical means of initiating a quest?

 

(General note; The information below relates to the outcome of a questline, so if you don't want to be spoiled, don't read.)

 

The datapad is found on Roosh's corpse at the end of a side mission, which in turn triggers the start of another, related to the contents of the datapad. Where you search for the cave.

 

 

"Doesn't really matter if you agree or not, its Silver's Mod. Though I tend to agree with Silver, even if Matilda wants to observe the other party member's you don't learn anything about a person's intentions from what they say; you judge on action; why would she need T3 to observe? T3 isn't force sensetive, so what could he really tell Matilda?"

 

I suppose that you are right, because Matilda is mainly used for Revan's backstory anyway. Still, I do wonder what T3 did between KOTOR and TSL that made him talk so much. In the words of atton, "Shut that trash compactor up".

 

Anyway, back to the mod.

 

The assassination Missions do give KOTOR more depth, which is something that the game cannot get to full of. Is there any mission that might include HK? Who better to help you assassinate? Bah, Matilda has enough black ops background to beat HK any day.

To be honest, I can't envision any possible scenario between T3M4 and Matilda that would have relevance to the core story of the mod. Maybe there would be something if T3 had a personality as developed as in K2, but he doesn't. So move along.

 

And the assassination missions are related to the concept that Dreshdae as a whole is becoming unstabilized and non-profitable - Which Czerka doesn't want nor like. So you as a player are tasked with hunting down the individuals in and around Dreshdae who are chiefly responsible for Dreshdae's worsening condition.

 

personally have to disagree. felt the first mod was a little amateurish* in it's execution, and in the end, that detracted greatly from the overall quality of the mod. it was the sort of mod that i really only wanted to play the once before removing it.

 

* i really want to explain that before anyone flames: felt the original mod was an excellent piece of work all told, but there was plenty of scope for improvement (especially in the scriptwriting/dialogue). the real positives to the mod were the ambition and scope behind it. it was quite obviously a well thought out and planned mod, it just wasn't executed as well as it could have been. absolutely no shame in that given it was the first attempt to achieve something of this scale.

 

one of the most heartening aspects of this thread is reading silveredge's criticisms of his own work. my one single piece of advice to you silveredge would be to double check, and then triple check the minor details - things like spelling errors and how the dialogue actually feels (reading the dialogue out loud, pretending to be the character saying it helps immensely. you'll soon get a much better feel for more natural sounding dialogue.

 

it's the minutiae that make or break an entertainment medium no matter what it is (game, play, movie, tv show, book etc etc), and it's patently obvious you spend considerable time and effort on 'the big picture' of your mod, try not to sell your efforts short by not paying enough attention to the 'little things'.

 

i really tried to make this post as constructive as possible. i know it takes a lot of effort to do what you're doing silveredge, and in no way am i trying to cheapen or belittle that effort. i sincerely hope you take this post in the manner intended.

I understand your criticisms, and mostly agree with them. BoS was a good mod, but knowing what I know now - I can see stuff could have been done better, stuff could have been approached differently - But that's the learning process for you.

 

From my experiences developing BoS, and supporting it afterwards with patches and the like, I learned a number of important lessons on what to do and what not to do in future projects. The most important being: Have a beta testing phase of the project.

 

Back in the day, I never really considered having people outside of the project test the mod before release - As at the time I figured that my own testing skills were good enough to iron out any bugs or errors prior to release. This obviously wasn't the case, and I learned that the hard way (I think the latest patch for the original BoS is the 7th since release, which is a testament in itself to how "buggy" the mod was when I at the time thought it was bug-less.

 

Dialogue wise, BoS was my first actual experience of telling a complex story ever. I didn't know what worked, what didn't, I didn't know how best to pace the narrative, I didn't know a lot of things.

 

Most of these problems are linked in with the fact that I was still relatively new to modding KOTOR at the time of development - And had to learn as I went along. So I think it's understandable to attribute some of them mod's failings to this fact.

 

Of course, now I consider myself knowledgeable enough in these aspects to not make the same mistakes twice. I've been applying what I learned from BoS to BoS:SR on a daily basis, and I think this will be very much evident in the completed mod.

 

On a whole, feel free to criticize me work as much as you like, I take none of it personally. I just want you to understand that the original BoS as a completed project, flaws and all - Does not represent the ultimate limit of what I as a modder can achieve in my projects. It was my learning experience. Of course, Solomon's Revenge will represent the limit of what I can achieve as a modder, as that will be my last big project. So if there are any genuine problems with that - I'll accept that I suck.

 

how long did the first bos take you to create.

Development began around April-ish 06, the mod was released September 07. The long development time is in part due to the fact that progress regularly halted as I'd want to do stuff that I didn't know how to do, so I'd have to research that and try to get it working. Luckily, I can do most of the stuff I need to do relatively easily this time around - So if it takes the same amount of time to develop, it will definitely show it in terms of content and length.

[Silveredge9]

Update time. In the form of a collection of screenshots, all of which are from side quests.

 

- Bla 1

- Bla 2

- Bla 3

- Bla 4

- Bla 5

- Bla 6

- Bla 7

- Bla 8

- Bla 9

- Bla 10

- Bla 11*

 

The side quests as a whole are pretty long. And should provide a good distraction from the main quest. In terms of the whole mod's length - At the current stage of development it's probably already longer then the original BoS, even more so when it's completed.

 

That's all for today folks.

 

*I'm aware of the error here, so there is no need to point it out.

[sekan]

Amazing as always

[Exile007]

Update time. In the form of a collection of screenshots, all of which are from side quests.

 

- Bla 1

- Bla 2

- Bla 3

- Bla 4

- Bla 5

- Bla 6

- Bla 7

- Bla 8

- Bla 9

- Bla 10

- Bla 11*

 

The side quests as a whole are pretty long. And should provide a good distraction from the main quest. In terms of the whole mod's length - At the current stage of development it's probably already longer then the original BoS, even more so when it's completed.

 

That's all for today folks.

 

*I'm aware of the error here, so there is no need to point it out.

 

Wait a minute, Daemon Drexel!?

 

'Drools'

[Marius Fett]

Looking great as always Silver.

[Miltiades]

Did I see an Iriaz in there? I also like how stuffed all the rooms always look. Must be one hell of a job with the placeables, though. Great screens, S9.

[Emperor Devon]

But concerning the gameplay mechanics of the whole thing, how would you suggest this would be implemented into a practical means of initiating a quest?

 

You could simply include a scrap of paper on his body (no idea if there's an icon for that) which has the codes scribbled down on it. Given the choice I'd rather write down something that long than memorize it, and I'm sure most people would agree.

 

It wouldn't even be a risk to him. A series of numbers on a paper without any context isn't going to be useful to anyone. That would also have the added benefit of rewarding players who pay attention to details - ones who did that would know what codes to input into the computer terminal (or other modicum) that requires them, while the lazy ones would be at a loss as to what they should do.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Hmm, I don't even know what those quests are about and they already look tasty to me...

 

Anyway, is "Bla7" is a reskinned version of the Hidden Beks, eh, Hideout?

[Silveredge9]

Did I see an Iriaz in there? I also like how stuffed all the rooms always look. Must be one hell of a job with the placeables, though. Great screens, S9.

Lots of placeables help create the impression that the area is genuine, as does the correct usage of NPC's. I've spent a lot of time making the behaviour of some NPC's as realistic as possible, some walk around the area on their own and perform tasks like typing on computers, or grabbing food from a nearby stall. It's better then having every single one stood still.

 

You could simply include a scrap of paper on his body (no idea if there's an icon for that) which has the codes scribbled down on it. Given the choice I'd rather write down something that long than memorize it, and I'm sure most people would agree.

 

It wouldn't even be a risk to him. A series of numbers on a paper without any context isn't going to be useful to anyone. That would also have the added benefit of rewarding players who pay attention to details - ones who did that would know what codes to input into the computer terminal (or other modicum) that requires them, while the lazy ones would be at a loss as to what they should do.

I'll take another look at the datapad and it's associated quest and see if I can rework it.

 

Hmm, I don't even know what those quests are about and they already look tasty to me...

 

Anyway, is "Bla7" is a reskinned version of the Hidden Beks, eh, Hideout?

 

"Bla7" is a screenshot from a reskin of the Hidden Bek base, yes. I believe I've posted other screenshots of this area in the past also.

 

Also, I figured I'd take a note out of Paperships book and post a couple of interesting statistics about the mod. Keep in mind that the number is set to rise in each area for the finished mod.

 

Number of files = Around 8600ish

Modules = 25

Scripts = Around 930ish

Size = Around 800mb, although this will be greatly greatly reduced when the whole thing is zipped.

Play time = I don't really have an idea at the moment. But definitely hours, lots of them.

[DarthRevan243]

WOW!

 

Thats the biggest mod in the world!

[Silveredge9]

Another new screenshots post. This time showcasing another new suit/armour. It's not 100% finished, but it isn't far off.

 

This armour is called the "Czerka Technician Suit", and is wore by a number of NPC's within Czerka's compound. It will also be wearable by the player.

 

The screenshots below show a comparison between the original armour, and the reskinned Technician suit.

 

Front

Back

[DAWUSS]

The chief and really only reason I don't want to create any interactions between Matilda and any of the other party members is that I don't want any unvoiced party member dialogue. If I could get the original actors to record dialogue, I'd probably do something - But until then, don't expect anything.

 

What about finding recordings of them (the VAs) talking and splicing their dialogue? You could use them talking in interviews or other video games... Given the dialogue it'll most likely be ripped one word at a time, and no one will notice.

 

Though Zaalbar and T3 would be the easiest to do, considering all Zaalbar does is roar and all T3 does is beep.

[Darth InSidious]

DAWUSS?

 

Rule 7.

[Silveredge9]

What about finding recordings of them (the VAs) talking and splicing their dialogue? You could use them talking in interviews or other video games... Given the dialogue it'll most likely be ripped one word at a time, and no one will notice.

 

Though Zaalbar and T3 would be the easiest to do, considering all Zaalbar does is roar and all T3 does is beep.

Individual words spliced together from different sources wouldn't sound in any way natural. There would be different background noises for every word, and the way in which the voice progresses from one word to another would sound very artificial.

 

And besides as DI pointed out, it's *lightning strikes* porting.

[Ztalker]

Excellent reskin!

 

Personally, I always disliked the armor with that...70's beige and white too it. Yours is much realistic...I mean...who would want to wear a bright white and beige armor in the time of war?

[Marius Fett]

That's a pretty decent armour skin Silver.

 

Looks like you could have a promising career as a texturer after you finish with big mods.

[xrefusex]

Individual words spliced together from different sources wouldn't sound in any way natural. There would be different background noises for every word, and the way in which the voice progresses from one word to another would sound very artificial.

 

And besides as DI pointed out, it's *lightning strikes* porting.

 

 

Agreed. Splicing of VOs is sketchy at best. The problem isn't background noises (they are separate files), but it's more the rhythm and pattern of speech will rarely fit or sound correct when put together without the proper pro-tools skills... Think of the word 'alright' and how many different ways you can pronounce it, based on the emotion you want to convey. It changes each time, so stringing together a sentence with some words coming from an angry question, others from love dialog and others from making a joke, it will all sound very weird.

 

For a giggle though, have a look on the internet for 'Cassette Boy', a British duo who make records by splicing together words and phrases to comic effect. Really funny stuff! A warning though: some of it is adult-oriented, although not more crass than say any current hip-hop or heavy metal video.

[Papership]

Splicing isn't always a complete disaster, but yes, you are very limited by the source material available, and if you want to make it sound natural... it takes more time than it is worth <.<

Number of files = Around 8600ish

Modules = 25

Scripts = Around 930ish

Size = Around 800mb, although this will be greatly greatly reduced when the whole thing is zipped.

Play time = I don't really have an idea at the moment. But definitely hours, lots of them.

*giggle* There's something familiar about this lazy method of progress report I have to agree with DarthRevan243, this is the biggest mod ever O.o I seriously can't wait to play this. Keep up the hard work, cos it inspires me to be less slack!

 

~Pap~

[Silveredge9]

Another new screenshot today. This one shows an area named "Dresdae's Sewage System", which will be visited during one of the side quests.

 

Screenshot

 

The side quest in question relates to the assassination missions that were previously mentioned, and involves you and your party members sneaking past a number of Sith to reach your target by disguising yourself as Sith Soldiers. But you have to be careful, if the Sith catch you with your uniform off, or if you happen to be walking around with a lightsaber - They will see through your disguise in a heartbeat. And in such a situation, the choice is left up to you to decide either to fight them, or to run away and try to sneak past them again.

 

Or, you can just skip that altogether and kill them all. The choice is left up to you.