Israeli/Palestinian Conflict MEGATHREAD

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

[Christos K]

It seems to go by VERY slow I am not sure if I will watch it...

[Achilles]

But come on the three sides are only using religion as an excuse.

For thousands of years?

 

The hatred might be enculturated within each group now, but I have no doubt in my mind that this was almost entirely a religious conflict when it started and is still a largely religious conflict now.

 

They ALL want eachother dead so they can claim the money.

What money?

 

They do not fight over religion.

I'm going to have to ask you how you intend to support this claim.

 

It started out as religion but than got extreme, out of control and exagerated.

Why can it not be "religion" and "extreme, out of control, and exaggerated" at the same time? Is there something dictating that it must be either/or?

 

The thing is this conflict has so many f!@$ing beliefs each time someone wants to get involved instead of checking the beliefs they just add their own and boom they wanted to be involved to stop it but now hate one side or the other.

But you just said that it wasn't about belief

[GarfieldJL]

Wouldn't that require that all three of these religions would have to believe that each of the other two have some legitimacy? Wouldn't it mean having to curtail some of their own religion's mythology?

 

For the Jewish people it is their most holy site, for Muslims it is the third most holy site. For Christians it's one of the most holy sites. Personally, I'd say as long as the Israelis don't restrict access to the dome of the rock on Muslims let Israel have the city because technically they were the ones that originally founded that particular city, and it is also their most holy site.

 

The most holy site in the Muslim Religion is Mecca in Saudi Arabia.

 

I won't let a stranger borrow my car, but you expect very religiously motivated people to trust people with completely different belief systems with their most holy land? I'm not saying it's not possible. I will say that I don't see how we can expect such behavior from the people engaged in this conflict.

 

It's not the Muslim's most holy land, it's their 3rd most holy land. For the Israelis it's their most holy site.

[The Doctor]

The point still stands, Garfy, that "the Muslims" are not going to trust Christians or Jews on one of their holy sites, whether it be the most Holy or the least. It's still Holy, and they don't want to allow access to people who don't recognise that Holliness.

[GarfieldJL]

The point still stands, Garfy, that "the Muslims" are not going to trust Christians or Jews on one of their holy sites, whether it be the most Holy or the least. It's still Holy, and they don't want to allow access to people who don't recognise that Holliness.

 

And the Jewish people and Christians aren't going to trust the Muslims either. I'm going by who claimed it to be Holy first, and that would be the Jewish people and the Christians. Islam is the youngest of the three religions.

 

 

I am going to say everyone is overlooking the other major player in all this, Iran.

[Achilles]

For the Jewish people it is their most holy site, for Muslims it is the third most holy site. For Christians it's one of the most holy sites. Personally, I'd say as long as the Israelis don't restrict access to the dome of the rock on Muslims let Israel have the city because technically they were the ones that originally founded that particular city, and it is also their most holy site.

 

The most holy site in the Muslim Religion is Mecca in Saudi Arabia.

This is all good information however I don't see where it either adds to or contradicts what I posted.

 

It's not the Muslim's most holy land, it's their 3rd most holy land. For the Israelis it's their most holy site.

Well considering that it was where muhammed allegedly flew up to heaven on his magic horse and we've all seen how riled up muslims get when it comes to muhammed, I'm willing argue that "3rd most holy" is still pretty important to them.

[GarfieldJL]

Well considering that it was where muhammed allegedly flew up to heaven on his magic horse and we've all seen how riled up muslims get when it comes to muhammed, I'm willing argue that "3rd most holy" is still pretty important to them.

 

And is the "City of David," was founded by the Jewish People, is their most holy site (and last I checked their only Holy Site). Plus it was a holy site to the Jewish People before the religion of Islam even existed and long before muhammed was even born.

[Achilles]

I don't think muslims are going to find that any more convincing than the christians who believe that Jerusalem is where jesus died for our sins. As I've pointed out countless times in the religion threads; it doesn't matter what you think, but what the believers think.

 

So, for as long as these three groups all believe that their religion is the right one and the other two are the wrong ones and all three believe that this region is critical to their belief system, there will be strife.

[Astor]

I am going to say everyone is overlooking the other major player in all this, Iran.

 

Aside from condemning Israel's attacks, Iran hasn't done anything.

 

The only major players here are Hamas and Israel.

[Web Rider]

And is the "City of David," was founded by the Jewish People, is their most holy site (and last I checked their only Holy Site). Plus it was a holy site to the Jewish People before the religion of Islam even existed and long before muhammed was even born.

 

Who had it holy first is irrelevant. It is holy to them now.

 

This is the problem with backtracking to "who was there first" and "who started it. All if that is irrelevant. Both groups are there now and have been there long enough to believe that they belong there.

[Astor]

There are claims that one Israeli video of 'Hamas Militants' loading missile onto before being destroyed is actually a video of civilians removing property from a damaged building.

 

Story, with video included.

 

It really could be either - but the area around the building and the truck is strewn with debris - possibly confirming Mr. Sanur's claim.

 

And, before anyone attempts to berate the source, or the author, he has this to say:

 

Several readers have e-mailed to ask whether I believe Hamas. One said I had "bought into" Hamas propaganda. Another that I should have dealt with Hamas' claims: "What's missing speaks volumes about your one-sidedness."

 

I do not believe anyone's "propaganda." We seek to verify all claims, from whatever source. One of the main claims in Gaza at the moment is the serious situation for the population. Having reported from Gaza many times over the years, I know how crowded parts of it are and how dependent the people are on food aid from the UN. This means they have no other source of supply but equally, if the system is working, they should be getting enough to get by on. The problem is that foreign correspondents cannot get in to establish the exact situation for themselves.

[Web Rider]

There are claims that one Israeli video of 'Hamas Militants' loading missile onto before being destroyed is actually a video of civilians removing property from a damaged building.

 

Story, with video included.

 

It really could be either - but the area around the building and the truck is strewn with debris - possibly confirming Mr. Sanur's claim.

 

My thoughts were pretty much as follows: the debris are too uniform. Eacy was heavy and delicate enough to require two people to move, they were all about the same length(the width of the truck bed) and appeared to be roughly the same width, and they were'd very tall, if I had to take a guess, I would say heavy timbers or some sort of cylinders. They could be pipe, but unless it's steel pipe, it shouldn't be very heavy.

 

If they are pipe, I would wonder why someone has such quality pipe laying around in their home and not being used as pipe. Perhaps it was a plumbing store? Didn't look like a construction supply place, and I've never been under the impression that the people in Gaza had any stores like that.

 

Given that the video is the colors and quality it is, my only thought at the end would be to see more videos to see if confirmed sightings of rockets look the same. But right now, they do not have the benefit of my doubt, I think they probably were missiles. But I'm not trained in figuring these things out, and I doubt anyone here really is either. So, asking us casual people to examine this footage isn't going to really solve anything.

[Astor]

So, asking us casual people to examine this footage isn't going to really solve anything.

 

For the record, i'm not asking everyone to evaluate it, I saw the story and thought it had merit (more for the 'which side do we believe' part than the claim that they were civilians).

[Web Rider]

For the record, i'm not asking everyone to evaluate it, I saw the story and thought it had merit (more for the 'which side do we believe' part than the claim that they were civilians).

 

I know, but we're always supposed to evaluate sources here right? There main source there is the video, we can speculate, but we're not really trained in figuring out those images.

 

also:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/03/AR2009010301031.html?hpid=topnews

 

Israeli ground forces have just entered Gaza for a "lengthy operation".

[jonathan7]

Israeli ground forces have just entered Gaza for a "lengthy operation".

 

I still think this;

 

One definition of insanity is to believe that you can keep doing what you’ve been doing and get different results.

[Astor]

The office of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has also announced that the government has ordered the urgent call-up of "tens of thousands" of extra military reservists.

 

Isn't that classed as 'overkill'?

[Rev7]

There are claims that one Israeli video of 'Hamas Militants' loading missile onto before being destroyed is actually a video of civilians removing property from a damaged building.

 

Story, with video included.

I have to agree with Web Rider, it is way too hard to really tell what happened. It had to have been a really small bomb/missile.

 

According to Wikipedia the Israeli Air Force has these air to surface weapons: (These are not all...)

AGM-62 Walleye

AGM-65 Maverick

AGM-142 Popeye (Seems way too big)

 

Or the 500, 1000, and 2000 pound bombs. I personally think that it must have been a GBU-54/B LaserJDAM (MK-82), essentially a 500lb guided bomb, For something that had such a small explosion, and was a precision guided, that is the only thing that makes sense to me. You also see in the video that the pilot was possibly marking the truck with the laser (or he could have just selected a point to zoom in at :/ )

[jrrtoken]

Hm... not very surprising. Since Gaza is a densely populated urban area, it might just cause the Israelis more casualties than Hamas. Yet, Israel is very fond of its bulldozers, so perhaps they'll go for a scorched earth strategy. Either way, they're going to be hated even more by Palestinians, which means more retribution from fanatics, which means even more violence. What a wonderful cycle, eh?

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Isn't that classed as 'overkill'?

not when your strategy is

 

...To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians...

 

- http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=360533&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

[Yar-El]

Israel called up tens of thousands of reservists in the event Palestinian militants in the West Bank or Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon decide to exploit the broad offensive in Gaza to launch attacks against Israel on other fronts.

 

Isn't that classed as 'overkill'?

Israel means to end all wars? Nah, overkill is a little over the top. Its a small defensive move.

[jonathan7]

Israel means to end all wars? Nah, overkill is a little over the top. Its a small defensive move.

 

I'll be sure to inform the families of the 400+ dead that this is only a small defensive move; it will only result in one thing, more death, destruction and hatred.

[Yar-El]

I'll be sure to inform the families of the 400+ dead that this is only a small defensive move; it will only result in one thing, more death, destruction and hatred.

There is a cold and dark reality to the 21st century. We have no more room to grow. We have no more islands to explore; thus, the expansion of freedom is now limited to isolated pockets of Earth. Democracy can't afford to sleep when so much is to be lost. Isreal's position is the new thinking of tomorrow. I read a article recently by someone from NASA and Space.com. Its message woke me up to a deep truth about the future. Democracy is destined to fail if there is no more room for rebellion. Expansion is important for the survival of all civilization; thus, Isreal is looking to survive in a world flexing. Their inaction in a chaotic world will only cost more lives. The needs of the many must outway the needs of the few. 400+ deaths is nothing to sneeze about; however, their loss means nothing if you don't give them purpose. Take why they died away, and you are left with meaningless deaths.

 

Why do you think civilians die in wars? It happens all the time. Give them meaning. I do. People need to wakeup. Life is not Star Wars, and diplomacy is not always welcomed. Reality stinks. There is no starting over. There is no such thing as waving a white flag. There is no more room to expand. Isreal is right to protect itself and it's way of life.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

There is a cold and dark reality to the 21st century. We have no more room to grow. We have no more islands to explore; thus, the expansion of freedom is now limited to isolated pockets of Earth. Democracy can't afford to sleep when so much is to be lost. Isreal's position is the new thinking of tomorrow. I read a article recently by someone from NASA and Space.com. Its message woke me up to a deep truth about the future. Democracy is destined to fail if there is no more room for rebellion. Expansion is important for the survival of all civilization; thus, Isreal is looking to survive in a world flexing. Their inaction in a chaotic world will only cost more lives. The needs of the many must outway the needs of the few. 400+ deaths is nothing to sneeze about; however, their loss means nothing if you don't give them purpose. Take why they died away, and you are left with meaningless deaths.

 

Why do you think civilians die in wars? It happens all the time. Give them meaning. I do. People need to wakeup. Life is not Star Wars, and diplomacy is not always welcomed. Reality stinks. There is no starting over. There is no such thing as waving a white flag. There is no more room to expand. Isreal is right to protect itself and it's way of life.

...

 

 

what the hell are you on about

 

i saw something about democracy, so in case you didn't know, palestine is a democracy. you should probably learn the facts about what you're discussing beforehand instead of trying to use some "big picture" argument to sound deep and philosophical (you didn't fyi).

[True_Avery]

Democracy is destined to fail if there is no more room for rebellion.

Every society is destined to fail. That is the cold truth of this.

 

Democracy, Freedom, and America would like to think they are invincible, but they will eventually be ripped down and turned into outdated thought processes.

 

And the amusing thing is, the concept of Freedom will most likely willingly fall to the next generation of society. All it takes is a savvy leader to convince liberals and conservatives alike to follow them and give up securities.

 

Sure, smaller countries tend to take things away by force, but Hitler rose to power for the most part due to his own strength of character and his genius manipulation of the human mind, and he managed to due so on the mistakes of so called Democratically free nations.

 

People are more than willing to give up freedom for security. Look at post-9/11 America. So many new rules and regulation to supposedly keep us safe, the patriot act, gitmo, etc. When people are scared, angry, etc they are easily manipulated by people who intend to do so.

 

Without this process you would not have civilization or religion; two things that are conveniently the reason for this conflict.

 

Expansion is important for the survival of all civilization

Expansion tends to be the shot in the foot for most civilizations. You can only flex and grow so big before your own foundations crumble under you.

 

Their inaction in a chaotic world will only cost more lives.

Inaction killed a woman in her house with a rocket. Action killed 400 civilians.

 

Inaction killed 3,000 on 9/11. Action killed 30,000+.

 

Inaction killed 11 million jews, while action killed millions of people fighting against and for Hitler

 

Not bringing in justifications, the action doesn't always outbalance inaction. Inaction eventually leads to an action when it is seen fit, but that doesn't mean there will be any less bloodshed on the action side.

 

Why do you think civilians die in wars? It happens all the time. Give them meaning. I do. People need to wakeup. Life is not Star Wars, and diplomacy is not always welcomed. Reality stinks. There is no starting over. There is no such thing as waving a white flag. There is no more room to expand. Isreal is right to protect itself and it's way of life.

Thats all well and good if it wasn't for the fact that it has little to do with why these people fight.

 

One side thinks it is absolutely right. The other side thinks its absolutely right. When you get people who think that land belongs to them by birthright, you will get factions who compete for it.

 

They kill each other not for Democracy and freedom. They kill each other over a book and the concept that a plot of dirt is worth killing and dying over. Not for Democracy. Not for Freedom. Because they think that their god has given them permission to do so.

 

The deaths of those civilians has a meaning. Irrationality. Its not a good meaning, but it is good enough to people who strap bombs to their chest and run into populated areas. Its good enough to a church that went into South America and converted the population by killing millions. Its good enough to a group of settlers that hung witches for cursing their neighbors.

 

These people could care less about your so called Democracy and Freedom.