Revan vs. Anikan if he didn't have to be in that Darth Vader costume

[The Betrayer]

You find out that Saul knows anything anyway and he's just testing you. He does not torture Bastila but then electrocutes the three of you before he leaves.

[Agincourt]

I would admit that I like Revan better than Anakin/Darth Vader, but that is part of the reason why I think Revan is better. I would vote for Darth Bane, Exar Kunn, and Revan all because they had done much more to show their true strength where as Anakin never did anything as great as any of these characters. That doesn't mean he couldn't, but simply hasn't.

[Godric Volturi]

I would admit that I like Revan better than Anakin/Darth Vader, but that is part of the reason why I think Revan is better. I would vote for Darth Bane, Exar Kunn, and Revan all because they had done much more to show their true strength where as Anakin never did anything as great as any of these characters. That doesn't mean he couldn't, but simply hasn't.

 

Bane also learned his power from Revan, so... therefor you vote for Revan. xD

[cire992]

I would admit that I like Revan better than Anakin/Darth Vader, but that is part of the reason why I think Revan is better. I would vote for Darth Bane, Exar Kunn, and Revan all because they had done much more to show their true strength where as Anakin never did anything as great as any of these characters. That doesn't mean he couldn't, but simply hasn't.

 

That's good reasoning, flashy powers and an attitude aren't worth much if you don't accomplish anything.

 

Personally, I'm still convinced that Revan would kick Vaderkin's butt. I mean, he doesn't even have any of his real limbs left, what does that say about his battle prowess?

Revan: 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 lightsabers, 2/9 loyal henchman

Vader: None of the above

[Agincourt]

Revan vs. Vader.

Fight!

 

Revan blasts Vader with force lightning. Vader's life support and limbs all disabled. Revan wins the fight.

 

I guess that this kind of argument really isn't valid, as there is no real point of reference for comparison.

[RedHawke]

I wasn't taking a side. I was simply bringing up the matter of canon conflicting with one another.

I was also replying not to your whole post but just the part I quoted.

 

If someone created something and Lucas said that he would not honor it as part of his star wars universe, then that makes that creation moot. If Lucas said that he would allow KOTOR and TFU to be considered canon, then they are worth just as much as any of his creations.

Here you misunderstand how canon works in Star Wars... they have levels of canon, so things like KotOR are lower then the movies/etc.

 

G-Canon = Movies/Raidioplays/Screenplays/Lucas Statements/etc.

C-Canon = Most all of the EU... etc.

 

G-Canon > C-Canon

 

Is it annoying? Yes, but it is how things are.

[Ping]

I'm going to have to agree with TKA-001 here, and say that there's not enough info on either characters (especially Revan) to draw a definitive conclusion. But if I had to guess: Revan. He is the most overpowered and overrated SW character out there, along with the Exile.

 

But in all seriousness, though, it would be more likely that Anakin would win based on Lucas's statements.

[Agincourt]

 

G-Canon = Movies/Raidioplays/Screenplays/Lucas Statements/etc.

C-Canon = Most all of the EU... etc.

 

G-Canon > C-Canon

 

Is it annoying? Yes, but it is how things are.

 

The way things are? I think you need to stop playing TFU and stop watching the Original trilogy for a while, because none of it is 'the way things are.'

 

If in the event that you've got a lot of G-canon that shows Revan able to do impressive tasks beyond what Anakin ever had done, I would say there is much more 'evidence' to support him than Anakin/Vader. That's not to say Anakin wasn't, but he certainly hasn't shown himself to be the powerful Jedi he was supposed to be.

 

I would say that Darth Maul clearly would beat out Darth Vader, based on how he handled a saberstaff WAY beyond what you've seen in the original trilogy. Vader was clearly not a 'level 9' lightsaber duelist from his miserable performance in the movies, so that disregards Lucas claim that Vader was such a skilled swordsman. I've played the Force Unleashed and could honestly say that Vader was just pathetic (I base this on the player's stats at the beginning of the game, not the boss version)

 

In the pretrilogy, he clearly made the Jedi much more impressive than they ever were in the original trilogy, so it shows that Lucas wanted more than what Vader ever yielded in terms of Jedi abilities. Why not just reduce the speed and intensity of the Jedi powers to keep Anakin/Vader the most powerful of them all?

 

Even his own creations put his word to question, so how can you trust it?

 

He's the creator? Well if he says G-cannon is authentic, then C-canon gets no special supreme authority. Lucas could have denied G-canon and kept Anakin the most powerful Jedi there was, but he allowed it.

 

So that makes G-canon worth as much as C-canon unless Lucas objects to it.

[TKA-001]

based on how he handled a saberstaff WAY beyond what you've seen in the original trilogy. Vader was clearly not a 'level 9' lightsaber duelist from his miserable performance in the movies, so that disregards Lucas claim that Vader was such a skilled swordsman.

So much for Vader single-handedly killing off more than half of a conclave of Jedi Masters in the Star Wars: Purge comic.

[Agincourt]

So much for Vader single-handedly killing off more than half of a conclave of Jedi Masters in the Star Wars: Purge comic.

 

Yeah, what's with that?

 

It's all fictional, so there really is no point to any of this. Based on my perspective, Anakin is not the supreme Jedi Lucas may believe. I made my opinion and I'm not going to change it simply because Lucas has a different one. And given as there is really no means by which to make a comparison, there is really nothing to say any one is better than the other.

[Lord of Hunger]

I'm going to have to agree with TKA-001 here, and say that there's not enough info on either characters (especially Revan) to draw a definitive conclusion.

See earlier posts. There is plenty of indicators as to Revan's pre-amnesia powers. Hell, just try and think about it for one moment: Studied under many of the Jedi Masters, naturally strong in the Force, learned Ancient Sith techniques at the Trayus Academy and Korriban, Juyo master, defeated Mandalore the Ultimate.

But if I had to guess: Revan. He is the most overpowered and overrated SW character out there, along with the Exile.

Yes, very amusing. Perhaps if you studied both characters more intensively, you'd note that both individuals are worthy of a great deal of reverence. The former (Revan) is the first known individual to possibly be above the stereotypical alignment influence of light and dark (the only other individual who may be similar is Cade Skywalker), while the latter (Exile) has an unparalleled level of ability in Force Bonding.

But in all seriousness, though, it would be more likely that Anakin would win based on Lucas's statements.

And of course, Lucas could turn around and say that Han Solo is a transvestite, but then again Agincourt is debating that point with much more cunning and grace that I can.

 

But I honestly have to say that KOTOR and TSL both have succeed in uprooting basic Star Wars fundamental systems of analyzing power and morality from within the canon itself. The two games have essentially by nature made the much of Star Wars obsolete. After all, if it is possible for a Sith Lord to be a good person and for the Jedi to be a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites who couldn't give a **** about genocide on Cathar and other worlds, the premise of the movies is shattered. The Light Side/Dark Side moral system cannot function when it has been shown to not cover all things. If a man like Jolee Bindo can turn his back on the Jedi without all the sudden getting the urge to steal candy from babies, then it is just as possible that the Jedi lie when they say they are the heroes. Ultimately, the KOTOR era has given us a revolution: it is actually possible to be a good or evil regardless of what abstract beliefs and titles you hold.

 

Oh, and here is something that Lucas could have never dreamed of: a strong female lead character who isn't some princess or queen. Or how about: a team of heroes that is about an equal amount of both men and women fully capable of combat and intuition. Leia, as great as she was, was only one bright gall amongst an almost completely male cast. Padme? The level of her character's brainlessness and naivety in Episode III makes me laugh. A lot.

[Forogorn]

If Revan was smart, he would have told the Republic that he will pretend to join the Dark Side, since he didn't, it caused a lot of deaths, including his own apprentice, Darth Malak. So it's Revan's fault for his stupidity. He also disobeyed the Jedi Council and went to war, which led to Mandalore the Ultimate's death. He shouldn't have used his power for offense, he should have used it for defense. Anakin on the other hand was a hero at the end. Anakin was the true Chosen One, he actually did save the Republic and finished the prophecy, but it was until the end, so he did it very late. He was suppose to be the savior of the Republic, and he was because he killed Darth Sidious. Without Anakin there'd be no Luke. Both of them have their negatives, so they're both equal. Still....Anakin was original.

[Lord of Hunger]

If Revan was smart, he would have told the Republic that he will pretend to join the Dark Side, since he didn't, it caused a lot of deaths, including his own apprentice, Darth Malak. So it's Revan's fault for his stupidity. He also disobeyed the Jedi Council and went to war, which led to Mandalore the Ultimate's death. He shouldn't have used his power for offense, he should have used it for defense.

1) The Republic has proven constantly to be progressively incompetent. Their stagnation resulted in their inability to hold their own against the Mandalorians. Had Revan and Malak not intervened, the Republic would have fallen right there and then. If the Republic could not handle the Mandalorians, there would be no way for them to handle the Ancient/True Sith. The whole purpose of Revan's Sith Empire was to replace the Republic and the equally incompetent Jedi Order with a more powerful and worthy entity. If that failed, the conflict would ultimately serve to make the Republic stronger anyway. The fact that the Republic did so well against the True Sith in the Great Galactic War is a testament to Revan's partial success.

2) The Jedi Order of that time proved completely untrustworthy due to their cover up of the Cathar genocide, unwillingness to protect the Republic in its darkest hour, and the attempted (though failed) destruction of Revan's mind.

3) Mandalore the Ultimate was a genocidal lunatic who commanded the casual elimination of planets and civilizations. As later recognized by Canderous Ordo/Mandalore the Preserver, Mandalore the Ultimate perverted the way of the Mandalorians.

Anakin on the other hand was a hero at the end. Anakin was the true Chosen One, he actually did save the Republic and finished the prophecy, but it was until the end, so he did it very late. He was suppose to be the savior of the Republic, and he was because he killed Darth Sidious. Without Anakin there'd be no Luke. Both of them have their negatives, so they're both equal. Still....Anakin was original.

Let's get your facts straight.

 

1) Anakin was partially responsible for the destruction of the Republic and mostly responsible for the destruction of the Jedi. He never at any point saved the Old Republic. His act of betrayal for Sidious made it possible for the New Republic to be made, but that's not the same thing as saving the Republic.

2) When you are comparing Luke to Anakin, essentially you are comparing perhaps THE Greatest Jedi to a self-centered brat who betrayed all of the people who ever gave a **** about him (if he really truly cared for Padme he wouldn't have Force Choked her), slaughtered a bunch of children, killed hundreds of Jedi (innocent and guilty alike), and shoved Sidious' totalitarian regime down everyone's throat. The fact that he "saved" the Galaxy by betraying Sidious is actually just as loathsome as those other acts because he backstabbed his master, proving a lack of integrity. Granted Luke's done some idiotic things, but he mostly proved to be extremely awesome. Trying to even claim that Luke and Anakin are on the same level makes no sense.

 

Oh, and for the record...if there was a fight between Revan and Luke, I think it'd be Luke who would win. Revan? Yeah, I admire Revan more than most Star Wars characters, but Luke has not only Anakin's level of raw power but Revan's level of master. It'd be close, but Luke would emerge victorious.

[Ping]

Hell, just try and think about it for one moment: Studied under many of the Jedi Masters, naturally strong in the Force, learned Ancient Sith techniques at the Trayus Academy and Korriban, Juyo master, defeated Mandalore the Ultimate.

What does it for me is that Anakin took on eight Jedi and killed them all almost single-handedly. Of course, as this is Anakin pre-Vader suit, I'd say Revan would beat him without the suit. Besides, Anakin was naturally strong in the Force (Lucas confirms he's the Chosen One, and just look at his midichlorian count), and I'm pretty sure that while Anakin learned most things from Obi-Wan, he didn't learn everything from him (a deleted scene from Episode 3 pokes fun at this). Also, there's nothing to confirm that "Older SW Jedi/Sith > Newer Jedi/Sith"

 

Oh, and for the record...if there was a fight between Revan and Luke, I think it'd be Luke who would win. Revan? Yeah, I admire Revan more than most Star Wars characters, but Luke has not only Anakin's level of raw power but Revan's level of master. It'd be close, but Luke would emerge victorious.

Depends entirely at which age Luke is at. If your talking about the Luke from NJO series and on, it wouldn't be as close as you think. Read the Unifying Force and the first issue of Invasion to see my point.

[Agincourt]

Did you know that the Athenians and Spartan militaries were able to hold off a Persian army of over 100,000 with only about 1,500 troops? Numbers really don't measure how great Jedi are because if you threw 100 jedi against either opponent, one at a time; odds are they will kill them all. If you threw a dozen at them, and those dozen weren't concerned with hitting friends, they both would lose. It's really not an accurate way to compare who's better.

[adamqd]

1) The Republic has proven constantly to be progressively incompetent. Their stagnation resulted in their inability to hold their own against the Mandalorians. Had Revan and Malak not intervened, the Republic would have fallen right there and then. If the Republic could not handle the Mandalorians, there would be no way for them to handle the Ancient/True Sith. The whole purpose of Revan's Sith Empire was to replace the Republic and the equally incompetent Jedi Order with a more powerful and worthy entity. If that failed, the conflict would ultimately serve to make the Republic stronger anyway. The fact that the Republic did so well against the True Sith in the Great Galactic War is a testament to Revan's partial success.

2) The Jedi Order of that time proved completely untrustworthy due to their cover up of the Cathar genocide, unwillingness to protect the Republic in its darkest hour, and the attempted (though failed) destruction of Revan's mind.

3) Mandalore the Ultimate was a genocidal lunatic who commanded the casual elimination of planets and civilizations. As later recognized by Canderous Ordo/Mandalore the Preserver, Mandalore the Ultimate perverted the way of the Mandalorians.

 

Let's get your facts straight.

 

1) Anakin was partially responsible for the destruction of the Republic and mostly responsible for the destruction of the Jedi. He never at any point saved the Old Republic. His act of betrayal for Sidious made it possible for the New Republic to be made, but that's not the same thing as saving the Republic.

2) When you are comparing Luke to Anakin, essentially you are comparing perhaps THE Greatest Jedi to a self-centered brat who betrayed all of the people who ever gave a **** about him (if he really truly cared for Padme he wouldn't have Force Choked her), slaughtered a bunch of children, killed hundreds of Jedi (innocent and guilty alike), and shoved Sidious' totalitarian regime down everyone's throat. The fact that he "saved" the Galaxy by betraying Sidious is actually just as loathsome as those other acts because he backstabbed his master, proving a lack of integrity. Granted Luke's done some idiotic things, but he mostly proved to be extremely awesome. Trying to even claim that Luke and Anakin are on the same level makes no sense.

 

Oh, and for the record...if there was a fight between Revan and Luke, I think it'd be Luke who would win. Revan? Yeah, I admire Revan more than most Star Wars characters, but Luke has not only Anakin's level of raw power but Revan's level of master. It'd be close, but Luke would emerge victorious.

 

QFET

[RedHawke]

The way things are?

Yup and I'm sensing confusion so I'll try and elaborate Star Wars Canon Explination

 

The Holocron is divided into 5 levels (in order of precedence): G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

 

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

 

T-canon[1] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee[2].

 

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

 

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

 

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III.

There you go. And as much as you want it not to be so, it is the way it is.

[Agincourt]

There you go. And as much as you want it not to be so, it is the way it is.

 

Appreciate it. So that means if Darth Vader wasn't the spectacular swordsman that he was proclaimed to be, (because the actors who played him weren't master swordsman in any degree) then G-cannon contradicts itself. Lucas claimed that Darth Vader (even after the black suit) was a level 9 swordsman. Seeing as Vader wasn't close to that level in the original movies, it makes Lucas' statement moot.

 

As much as you want it to be, that's the way it is. All Lucas would have to do is go back and re edit the movies to correct for that, and then it would be.

[Forogorn]

Lord of Hunger, all I am trying to say is that both of them are not as powerful as we think. They both have their weaknesses, and that's a lot of them.

[Fredi]

My choice? Anakin, Why? He is the chosen one.

[Gob]

Revan only has stuff to prove that he's powerful. But not how powerful. Until some new piece of lit comes out that gives us a precise indication of Revan's power, he's unknown. Simple as that. Could he beat RotS Anakin? Possibly. Can we say for sure? No. That's not what the thread's asking, though. But the thread's topic is invalid, because we haven't seen Anakin at his full potential. And we never will.

[Ping]

Revan only has stuff to prove that he's powerful. But not how powerful. Until some new piece of lit comes out that gives us a precise indication of Revan's power, he's unknown. Simple as that. Could he beat RotS Anakin? Possibly. Can we say for sure? No. That's not what the thread's asking, though. But the thread's topic is invalid, because we haven't seen Anakin at his full potential. And we never will.

 

Very true. Pehaps the upcoming TOR novel may shed light on this matter.

[Kado Sunrider]

Interesting topic.

 

LoH, however much respect I have for you, Im going to have to call you on this. Darth Vader (with the suit and without) was instrumental in defeating a very large portion of the Jedi Order (and I dont want to hear you say that the clone troops killed most of them, blah blah blah, he had to kill some if not most of them himself, with a little backup.) at the temple. On the other hand, when did Revan march into the Jedi Temple and murder everyone in sight, oh thats right. He didn't. He walked in, asked politely if anyone wanted to join him in fighting the mandalorians and left.

 

Personally, I think that Revan would win, but not for the reasons stated above. Revan was a master of tactics and strategy, sure, but that wouldn't help in a lightsaber battle.

 

Here's my combat equation for this battle.

 

(Revan's Juyo + Echani Battle Precognition) + (Anakin's Djem So/Shien + Superior Force-abilities) = Slim victory for Revan

 

Anyone who says that Tactics and Strategy would have any effect on a single-man engagement should be lined up and shot, thats just ridiculous.

 

Im also going to have to agree with Gob here. Revan IS an unknown. Was he a consular, sentinel, or guardian? Did he prefer kicking ass with his lightsaber, or with the Force? Just how effective was his combat strategy, was it really amazing, or just the ability to bring endless overwhelming force into play? We'll never know, because KotOR isnt set during the Mandalorian Wars, its set after.

 

/endrant

[Agincourt]

Well in terms of Revan's lightsaber abilities, he did defeat Malak. Compare Malak to Darth Vader and I would say they are about equal, except for Malak being able to use Force lightning and the other is vulnerable to it. I would favor Malak in that regard.

 

Now as for the one on one thing, I don't agree on that. I think that their entire range of strengths should be considered. Revan was way more intelligent than Anakin or Vader ever was. He was more charismatic. He was described by Kreia like looking into the heart of the Force.

 

Anakin probably was a better lightsaber dualist and may have had greater potential, but turning into Darth Vader really makes any predictions to his true potential unknown. Revan had never been compared to Anakin in any degree, so without any point of reference for either character, you really can't definitively favor one over the other except with what you've seen them do.

[Lord of Hunger]

Lord of Hunger, all I am trying to say is that both of them are not as powerful as we think. They both have their weaknesses, and that's a lot of them.

Anakin on the other hand was a hero at the end. Anakin was the true Chosen One, he actually did save the Republic and finished the prophecy, but it was until the end, so he did it very late. He was suppose to be the savior of the Republic, and he was because he killed Darth Sidious. Without Anakin there'd be no Luke. Both of them have their negatives, so they're both equal. Still....Anakin was original.

So you are saying that when you were claiming that Anakin was a great hero and equal to Luke, you actually meant he wasn't all that great.

Revan only has stuff to prove that he's powerful. But not how powerful. Until some new piece of lit comes out that gives us a precise indication of Revan's power, he's unknown. Simple as that. Could he beat RotS Anakin? Possibly. Can we say for sure? No.

Please actually read my posts. I specified during this debate that we were discussing pre-amnesia Revan, which is different from the personality created by the Jedi Council. We have strong idications that Revan was a Consular due to the descriptions of his extensive Force Mastery. Strategum is often a trait of the Consular class. Malak, who relied on brute power, was more likely the Guardian of the two.

That's not what the thread's asking, though. But the thread's topic is invalid, because we haven't seen Anakin at his full potential. And we never will.

We have seen his pre-Vader potential, at that is what this thread is analyzing.

LoH, however much respect I have for you,

Why thank you.

Im going to have to call you on this. Darth Vader (with the suit and without) was instrumental in defeating a very large portion of the Jedi Order (and I dont want to hear you say that the clone troops killed most of them, blah blah blah, he had to kill some if not most of them himself, with a little backup.) at the temple. On the other hand, when did Revan march into the Jedi Temple and murder everyone in sight, oh thats right. He didn't. He walked in, asked politely if anyone wanted to join him in fighting the mandalorians and left.

What greater weapon is there than to turn your enemy to your own cause? To use their own knowledge against them?

Let us see what Revan did in comparison to Anakin.

 

Anakin walks in with guns blazing and kills a whole bunch of a Jedi...with a great deal of help from the Clone Troopers. I doubt that he would have been able to kill all of them if there weren't Troopers to at least distract the Jedi.

 

Revan enters and persuades the more talented and powerful of the Jedi to join a worthy cause, then afterwards form a powerful Sith Empire. He has reduced the power of the Republic and Jedi by at least a third and formed an Empire from scratch.

(Revan's Juyo + Echani Battle Precognition) + (Anakin's Djem So/Shien + Superior Force-abilities) = Slim victory for Revan

1) Djem So has to be the most overrated lightsaber combat form in existence. The fact that he beat Dooku with it is not a testament to the strength of the Form but the fact that he was able to surprise his opponent with a different form and the use of the Dark Side.

2) More natural potential does not equal Superior Force Abilities. Anakin was a Guardian, and thus never developed much focus and a range of different abilities. Revan was a Consular who studied under many Jedi Masters, and at Malachor and Korriban. See where I am going?

Just how effective was his combat strategy, was it really amazing, or just the ability to bring endless overwhelming force into play?

According to Canderous Ordo, Mical the Disciple, G0-T0, and others, Revan did used very complex tactics often involving feints and the willingness to sacrifice one asset to acquire ten others. It was Malak who used the Sith Armies for overwhelming force tactics.

Anyone who says that Tactics and Strategy would have any effect on a single-man engagement should be lined up and shot, thats just ridiculous.

I'd say the exact opposite. Ever heard of Dun Moch? One does not need to kill to defeat an opponent. Oh, and Dooku? To a master duelist like him, leverage and terrain are everything. Charging into battle like a loon (something Anakin did against Dooku during the end of Episode II) is like asking for failure.

He was described by Kreia like looking into the heart of the Force.

Unfortunately, this is hyperbole and doesn't really provide much value to an argument. I've learned that over time.

Anakin probably was a better lightsaber dualist

Proof? Mastery over Djem So does not equal a better lightsaber dualist, considering that it is easy for someone with lots of great strength to master. For the most part, all you're doing is just hacking at your opponent very quickly. Juyo, meanwhile, is a far more complex form.