A lot of SITH

[Wolfskin75]

Why do people find delight in the Sith and why does it seem the good guys get hated on. Maybe it's just me but I love a good story where everything ends happy and not a lot of unhappiness occurs. Like.. in TSL, you can go around and really be a bad bad sith. that sucks.... spending your time doing bad things. and not mention looking pretty bad. I know it had to happen.. but ep. 3 watching Anikian destory his school... and I just watched the old republic trailer watching jedi just get hacked to pieces.

 

give me a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach..

 

and the Jedi are suppose to be sooo smart but the always make the same mistakes.

1. never think it's the Sith - when it always is.
   
2. believing that thinking about stuff will solve - which always leads to the destruction of so much innocent life... al la U.N.
   
3. become complacent time and time again.
   

 

so in my mind I get to be the Jedi we are suppose to be. and not the silliness they have/always are.

 

comments welcome.

[Te Je'karta Mand'alor]

wow... i really never realized that... 0.o

[Q]

Yes, it's a veritable pile of Sith.

[Wolfskin75]

wow... i really never realized that... 0.o

 

really? are you making fun.

[Samuel Dravis]

so in my mind I get to be the Jedi we are suppose to be. and not the silliness they have/always are.

I agree. I really liked KotOR, but I never could play the evil guy part in either game. Still, I think it was important to have the ability to be evil in the games. After all, if you couldn't be evil, then you wouldn't be able to roleplay your Revan/Exile as he was supposed to be, could you?

 

And yes, I think the Jedi are on occasion hopelessly naive.

[Arcesious]

I partly agree. I find that stories with a dichotamy of 'good' and 'evil' seem to be very cheesy. If a story has anywhere near such a dichotamy in it, it had better have some sort of very good psychological backround explanation of why the 'bad guys' behave the way they do. They have to be beleivable. Stereotypically evil characters just seem too challenging to the suspension of disbeleif a reader has with a story.

 

But the happy ending part? No, I disagree. Enough of the 'good guys' surviving by luck. The 'good guys' must die tragically and permanently just like the 'bad guys'. No good guys or bad guys coming back to life by duex ex machina plot devices.

[Wolfskin75]

isn't that what lead to DArth Vader... master windu saying " I don't think that the Sith could have returned without us feeling it" BUT HE WAS SO WRONG

 

so in the TSL, it's a great example of them being silly. they let planets getting wiped out by and then when the SITH are back and after them... they give the same line...and... start agruing with you ... if your are on the light side... the one starting to help them... but of course "the force is a difficult to read"

 

but it is okay.. even luke was tempted by the dark side twice... and came out of it. He did suffer his share of heart break

[Demongo]

I agree and yea when I started playng DS in K1 or TSL I always had to do something good too. I jus can't waste my time running around,killing people and taking their money.

[Wolfskin75]

I partly agree. I find that stories with a dichotamy of 'good' and 'evil' seem to be very cheesy. If a story has anywhere near such a dichotamy in it, it had better have some sort of very good psychological backround explanation of why the 'bad guys' behave the way they do. They have to be beleivable. Stereotypically evil characters just seem too challenging to the suspension of disbeleif a reader has with a story.

 

But the happy ending part? No, I disagree. Enough of the 'good guys' surviving by luck. The 'good guys' must die tragically and permanently just like the 'bad guys'. No good guys or bad guys coming back to life by duex ex machina plot devices.

 

I like that. like.. I love finding the real reason they went to the dark side.

like for instance.. the exile in TSL should be all about revenge.. they kick him/her out, let worlds die, and now he/she is back.. and in a position to show them what's up. I just can't bring myself to do it.

 

Edit: It turned out the reason Vader went to the dark side... is... well.. even after watching the movies... I still can't find a good reason.. he was just a immature brat being pushed around by a really evil old guy.

[JediAthos]

anakin was motivated by love for his wife...ironically something actually very good is what drove him to do what he did. He believed that only Sidious could teach him what he needed to know to keep her alive which, of course, started after he had the vision of her dying in childbirth. The murder of his mother by the Sand People didn't help matters either.

[Astor]

Why do people find delight in the Sith and why does it seem the good guys get hated on. Maybe it's just me but I love a good story where everything ends happy and not a lot of unhappiness occurs. Like.. in TSL, you can go around and really be a bad bad sith. that sucks....

 

...give me a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach..

 

Then don't be evil.

 

Why do you have a problem with there being a choice? Most of the time, i'll play as one of the good guys, but sometimes it's nice to play as one of the dangerous people in the galaxy. It may seem a little forced at times, and might not offer much reward, but I like playing as a Dark Sider, if only because most of the Star Wars universe focuses on events from the point of view of the 'good guys'.

 

Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a children's ward that needs burning down...

[Giant Graffiti]

I misread the title.

[Endorenna]

Me? I always, always play the Dark Side in KOTOR/TSL. Why? Because the Jedi are, 99.999% of the time, supremely stupid. And the Jedi Code is awful. "There is no emotion"? Seriously. Give me a break.

 

Yes, the Sith are evil, but they do have reasons for what they do. Here are a few examples:

 

 

Darth Vader: As an earlier poster said, he was doing everything he could to save his wife. Does that make everything he did okay? No, but he did have a reason.

 

Darth Tyranus: He knew the Republic/the Jedi were ruled by idiots, and that they would be destroyed. So, he looked for a way to stop the Republic's decay, and he found an answer: the Dark Side. Through conquering the Republic, he hoped to save it.*

 

Darth Bane: His goal was to save the Sith. He did it in true Dark Side fashion.

 

Darth Zannah: Her first real exposure to the Jedi were them killing her friend, and after that she was trained as a Sith. She had no reason not to be evil. Everything she'd seen indicated that "Good is dumb".

 

Darth Revan: According to what I could gather from KOTOR/TSL, he turned to the Dark Side to save the Republic (much like Darth Tyranus). (No, I'm not saying he was good.)

 

 

If I had longer, I'm sure I could think of more Sith and their reasons for being evil, but I'd like to finish the Raxus Prime level in TFU (speaking of being evil ).

 

 

*(I haven't read the books/comics about Dooku, so the stuff I just said about him is second-hand information.)

[TKA-001]

"There is no emotion"? Seriously. Give me a break.

"There is no emotion" is meant to be taken as not letting one's emotions do anything to prevent one from doing what is right. Not even the people in-universe pretend that this is a flat-out denial of emotion's existence, or a statement that Jedi shouldn't have emotions (a common misconception in the fanbase that's never going to leave because it wasn't adequately explained in the movies or prominent EU).

 

Darth Vader: As an earlier poster said, he was doing everything he could to save his wife. Does that make everything he did okay? No, but he did have a reason.

First of all, Vader did not do everything to save his wife. He betrayed Windu out of a less than entirely healthy concern for her well-being, and though he was initially horrified at what he had done, Palpatine won him over by promising to save Padme, grant him greater power in the Force, and doing away with the "evil" of the Republic and Jedi. After Mustafar, none of the crimes Vader committed had anything to do with her.

 

Does that make everything he did okay? No, but he did have a reason.

There is no such thing as a villain that has no reason.

 

Darth Tyranus: He knew the Republic/the Jedi were ruled by idiots, and that they would be destroyed. So, he looked for a way to stop the Republic's decay, and he found an answer: the Dark Side. Through conquering the Republic, he hoped to save it.*

Count Dooku has a considerable number of counts of murder, war crimes, and criminal negligence (he and Sidious permitted all Grievous' atrocities in the Clone Wars and Dooku planned on using the general as a scapegoat so he would be able to bull**** the galaxy into believing him blameless) under his belt, among other things. Furthermore, Dooku was a ruthless, elitist bastard on a scale above and beyond anything that the Jedi could realistically be accused of. He had a lower opinion of non-humans than humans, he viewed non-Force sensitives as inferiors, and planned on forming a Sith Order which would have all Force-sensitives in the galaxy forced into its membership, not to mention a Sith Empire at least as vile as Palpatine's (Revenge of the Sith novelization). There is nothing noble about Dooku's motivations or actions.

 

Darth Bane: His goal was to save the Sith. He did it in true Dark Side fashion.

And that is good why?

 

Darth Zannah: Her first real exposure to the Jedi were them killing her friend

...by accident, because they had reason to believe that her friend was insane and going to attack them.

 

She had no reason not to be evil.

What about the fact that being evil is... You know, wrong?

 

Darth Revan: According to what I could gather from KOTOR/TSL, he turned to the Dark Side to save the Republic (much like Darth Tyranus). (No, I'm not saying he was good.)

If you're not saying that he or they are good, then what's the point in bringing up their reasons? Of course they have reasons. That's an essential part of any characterization.

 

 

In regards to the main post: Having evil stuff happen in a story is generally good for the quality of the story, because it presents it as a serious situation, makes it deeper and more able to draw the viewer in. Besides, the badder the villain, the better the victory for the good guys.

[Totenkopf]

I take an "ambidextrous" attitude toward the whole thing. Playing LS all the time would get incredibly boring, as would only going DS. Out of the box or w/mods, I've killed just about everyone you're allowed to at least once. Frankly, the jedi border on insanity in the sense that they do the same thing over and over apparently expecting a different result. Stupid jedi.

[Endorenna]

"There is no emotion" is meant to be taken as not letting one's emotions do anything to prevent one from doing what is right. Not even the people in-universe pretend that this is a flat-out denial of emotion's existence, or a statement that Jedi shouldn't have emotions (a common misconception in the fanbase that's never going to leave because it wasn't adequately explained in the movies or prominent EU).

 

I know it's not a flat-line statement, but like you said, it's not well explained.

 

 

First of all, Vader did not do everything to save his wife. He betrayed Windu out of a less than entirely healthy concern for her well-being, and though he was initially horrified at what he had done, Palpatine won him over by promising to save Padme, grant him greater power in the Force, and doing away with the "evil" of the Republic and Jedi. After Mustafar, none of the crimes Vader committed had anything to do with her.

 

The initial reason for him turning was wanting to save his wife. Palpatine used that to get him to turn to the Dark Side, and then more and more reasons to stay piled up, fuled by Anakin's rather bloated ego.

 

 

There is no such thing as a villain that has no reason.

 

True. What makes a villain good or bad character (not in the moral sense ) is what the reason is.

 

Count Dooku has a considerable number of counts of murder, war crimes, and criminal negligence (he and Sidious permitted all Grievous' atrocities in the Clone Wars and Dooku planned on using the general as a scapegoat so he would be able to bull**** the galaxy into believing him blameless) under his belt, among other things. Furthermore, Dooku was a ruthless, elitist bastard on a scale above and beyond anything that the Jedi could realistically be accused of. He had a lower opinion of non-humans than humans, he viewed non-Force sensitives as inferiors, and planned on forming a Sith Order which would have all Force-sensitives in the galaxy forced into its membership, not to mention a Sith Empire at least as vile as Palpatine's (Revenge of the Sith novelization). There is nothing noble about Dooku's motivations or actions.

 

As I said, I haven't read any books about him, and what I put what second-hand information. I stand corrected.

 

 

And that is good why?

 

I didn't say it was good. I just said that he had a reason (albeit a twisted one) for doing what he did.

 

 

...by accident, because they had reason to believe that her friend was insane and going to attack them.

 

I know that, and you know that. It's been a while since I read the book, but if I remember correctly, Zannah didn't know that.

 

 

What about the fact that being evil is... You know, wrong?

 

I'm not saying that being bad is okay. I'm saying that she had no motivation to follow the Light Side except for whatever she'd been taught about good and evil previously. (Which is a good reason to me. I'm not saying she's blameless.)

 

 

If you're not saying that he or they are good, then what's the point in bringing up their reasons? Of course they have reasons. That's an essential part of any characterization.

 

I'm sorry, I just realized that I completely forgot to put in a concluding sentence in my previous post. My point was, the reason I 'find delight in' Sith is because they're interesting characters to analyze.

 

Sometimes.

[Darth Avlectus]

@ thread: I agree with astor kaine, you don't like it, don't do it. Frankly, I think some characters in the games needed a good boot in the arse.

 

Bane, well, was driven to it. His life gave him no real reason not to. It was ultimately a failure of the republic b/c it had been drawn into a 3,000 year war with the sith-albeit a few breaks, but still. While he was an evil soul, it wasn't hard to see why he did what he did if you read the novels. I don't think he was entirely without soem good, but it never was allowed to bloom nor was it to have had a positive outcome for bane.

 

Actually he strode to remake the sith. He destroyed the existing sith b/c they were drawn into an unending war with the jedi that was doomed to forever be in stalemate (many jedi in the war vs sith were considerably darker, or so that's the impression I got from it). Not that what he did was necessarily right.

 

It would not be a stretch to say, however, that his actions saved the galaxy from an unending war.

 

But nevertheless, I'd probably try to kill him for the danger he posed both in the immediate now, and in the eventual future. Probably to no avail, but I'd try.

 

Vader, was a sad pathetic man. Nothing amazing about him. Not Satan, just the chauffeur who gets his cigarettes.

 

Revan: I'll just say it was by necessity and fate's hand. We got a chance at playing through it after his time of being bad. It's canon to go light but I think the alternate storyline is there as an item of interest. Same W/ Exile and TSL. In the dark side scenario, I can't help but think Kreia was referring to the Exile and primarily herself to a degree when she said "What is left of the Jedi".

 

ROTS for PS2 had an alternate ending. I only wish like that, George would have made an alternate ending to ROTS like he did with all his other stuff. He liked to play "what if" just for fun. OH well.

[Wolfskin75]

"There is no emotion" is meant to be taken as not letting one's emotions do anything to prevent one from doing what is right. Not even the people in-universe pretend that this is a flat-out denial of emotion's existence, or a statement that Jedi shouldn't have emotions (a common misconception in the fanbase that's never going to leave because it wasn't adequately explained in the movies or prominent EU).

 

 

First of all, Vader did not do everything to save his wife. He betrayed Windu out of a less than entirely healthy concern for her well-being, and though he was initially horrified at what he had done, Palpatine won him over by promising to save Padme, grant him greater power in the Force, and doing away with the "evil" of the Republic and Jedi. After Mustafar, none of the crimes Vader committed had anything to do with her.

 

 

There is no such thing as a villain that has no reason.

 

 

Count Dooku has a considerable number of counts of murder, war crimes, and criminal negligence (he and Sidious permitted all Grievous' atrocities in the Clone Wars and Dooku planned on using the general as a scapegoat so he would be able to bull**** the galaxy into believing him blameless) under his belt, among other things. Furthermore, Dooku was a ruthless, elitist bastard on a scale above and beyond anything that the Jedi could realistically be accused of. He had a lower opinion of non-humans than humans, he viewed non-Force sensitives as inferiors, and planned on forming a Sith Order which would have all Force-sensitives in the galaxy forced into its membership, not to mention a Sith Empire at least as vile as Palpatine's (Revenge of the Sith novelization). There is nothing noble about Dooku's motivations or actions.

 

 

And that is good why?

 

 

...by accident, because they had reason to believe that her friend was insane and going to attack them.

 

 

What about the fact that being evil is... You know, wrong?

 

 

If you're not saying that he or they are good, then what's the point in bringing up their reasons? Of course they have reasons. That's an essential part of any characterization.

 

 

In regards to the main post: Having evil stuff happen in a story is generally good for the quality of the story, because it presents it as a serious situation, makes it deeper and more able to draw the viewer in. Besides, the badder the villain, the better the victory for the good guys.

 

awesome.

 

Me? I always, always play the Dark Side in KOTOR/TSL. Why? Because the Jedi are, 99.999% of the time, supremely stupid. And the Jedi Code is awful. "There is no emotion"? Seriously. Give me a break.

 

I agree. That is why I am liking the TSL and my Jedi I am playing because I do believe that the Jedi really choose the path of stupidity 99.999% of the time.

 

It is always proper to questions why you have such beliefs and follow the letter of the law of the intent of the law.

 

they should have fought in the war. and my character did. and my Jedi regretted none of it. and in the game taking it to the evil in the universe, but not on the U.N.'s terms...

 

the problems with "BOTH" factions is that there are some who get blinded by the words and not why they where written.

 

on a side note... I love that people are actually discussing this...and as of yet hasn't gotten ugly as a SITH's butt. AWESOME

 

Anakin: (slices pear) If Master Obi-wan caught me doing this, he'd be very grumpy.

Padme': Uhh...Anakin?

Anakin: Yes?

Padme': If he'd be grumpy, why are you doing it?

Anakin: Because it shows I've grown up!

Padme': Color me not impressed, Ani. When I was your age, I was ruling a planet, and you're being a twit.

Anakin: Don't call me Ani!

Padme': Exactly my point.

Anakin: Huh?

Padme': (/facepalm) Nevermind...

 

LOL

 

Jedi's who understood, and I respect.

 

1. Qui-Gon Jinn, even though he did make two big mistakes (bringing VADER into the picture, and getting killed) he was very passionate about the law and knew not to follow the intent of the law not the letter. ( rebel jedi)
   
2. Obi-Wan Kenobi, again believing that passion and revenge is bad, cutting Darth Maul in half even after relaxing and trying.. I guess thoughts of revenge out of his head.
   
3. Yoda, he repeatedly warned Obi won about training Vader, but backed up his play even though he knew where it was going to end up... and than he was pulling a saber out of that trooper.. so bad ass
   
4. Corran, plays the jedi like I would. Chaotic good.
   

[Sabretooth]

Me? I always, always play the Dark Side in KOTOR/TSL. Why? Because the Jedi are, 99.999% of the time, supremely stupid. And the Jedi Code is awful. "There is no emotion"? Seriously. Give me a break.

 

The influence of Buddhist philosophy has been observed time and again in Lucas' idea of Jedi Knights. In case you are unfamiliar with the Way of the Buddha, he sought penance and meditated hard upon the reason of suffering and pain in this world, and concluded that strong emotions were the cause of this suffering.

 

It is when we desire that we are disappointed, or thrown into zeal. If we eliminate desire, we eliminate suffering. Seeing as how the Force is an extremely powerful thing, taking this path of deliberate caution seems the most sensible. Even the most zealous heroes have turned into villains, as history has shown us.

[Astor]

Qui-Gon Jinn, even though he did make two big mistakes (bringing VADER into the picture, and getting killed) he was very passionate about the law and knew not to follow the intent of the law not the letter. ( rebel jedi)

 

I wouldn't class either of those as 'mistakes'. Firstly, Qui-Gon didn't bring 'VADER' into the picture.

 

He bought the Chosen One into the picture. I don't think anybody could have foreseen what Anakin would become. And his getting killed was hardly his mistake - Maul was evidently a superior swordsman, and it took a complete surprise to bring him down.

 

Yoda, he repeatedly warned Obi won about training Vader, but backed up his play even though he knew where it was going to end up... and than he was pulling a saber out of that trooper.. so bad ass

 

You make it sound like Anakin was Vader from the start. He wasn't. The council objected to his training because he was too old and impulsive. Again, even Yoda couldn't have foreseen the exact circumstances ahead.

[Wolfskin75]

I wouldn't class either of those as 'mistakes'. Firstly, Qui-Gon didn't bring 'VADER' into the picture.

 

He bought the Chosen One into the picture. I don't think anybody could have foreseen what Anakin would become. And his getting killed was hardly his mistake - Maul was evidently a superior swordsman, and it took a complete surprise to bring him down.

 

 

 

You make it sound like Anakin was Vader from the start. He wasn't. The council objected to his training because he was too old and impulsive. Again, even Yoda couldn't have foreseen the exact circumstances ahead.

 

but that raises a good question. Did Darth Sidious see a glimmer of what he could become.

 

I am not sure if it's that idea that there are always two paths,or he saw the flaws in Ani's character that he could exploit. but he was on Ani like white on rice.

 

I don't think the Jedi did wrong,I just wish they had play stronger roles, they just seemed like a joke .. that a whole order could be outsmarts by basically three major people.

 

but I guess , like my wife said... if they didn't do that then they would be no movie.

[ForeverNight]

Well, what's interesting is that Ani did exactly what the prophesy said he would do, he did bring balance to the force.

 

In the Old Republic Era, there were arguably thousands if not millions of jedi.... and a measly 2 Sith or so...

 

One can plainly see that Jedi > Sith; thus they are not in balance.

 

In order to bring them to balance you either need to expand the amount of Sith, which is not happening because of Sith doctrine, or eliminate a LOT of Jedi. Which happened.

 

So, we loose more than a few Jedi and eventually it's like this:

 

Jedi == Sith

 

Boom, and we have balance! If only those misguided Jedi remembered that balance isn't always the best thing to have in ones life......

[Wolfskin75]

Well, what's interesting is that Ani did exactly what the prophesy said he would do, he did bring balance to the force.

 

In the Old Republic Era, there were arguably thousands if not millions of jedi.... and a measly 2 Sith or so...

 

One can plainly see that Jedi > Sith; thus they are not in balance.

 

In order to bring them to balance you either need to expand the amount of Sith, which is not happening because of Sith doctrine, or eliminate a LOT of Jedi. Which happened.

 

So, we loose more than a few Jedi and eventually it's like this:

 

Jedi == Sith

 

Boom, and we have balance! If only those misguided Jedi remembered that balance isn't always the best thing to have in ones life......

 

that's a good point. but they even went as far to believe there where "no" sith left. that they had been wiped out. In fact it took them the first "painful" movie to realize that they where back. ( if I recall it correctly) that was the big deal with Maul showing up.

 

But soon after rotj, luke set's out to set up the Jedi academy again, this kind of ... well. puts weight on the Jedi side again.. but then Sith keep popping out of the woodwork in the works and his nephew becomes one, which is then killed by his niece... ( unlucky brake for the Solo's) ... I just think that sometimes.. ( or beginning to think) the jedi really .. are kind of lazy.. and the sith are real go getters.

[Laura Muffin]

BUBBLEGUM AND CANDY AND PUPPIES AND KITTENS AND HUGS AND FUZZY BLANKETS AND CONDOMS YAAAAAAAY~~~~~~~

 

But in all seriousness I like being a "good guy" too (sorry if I tl;dr'd most of this thread I'm on a friend's laptop atm teeheeheee~)

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

BUBBLEGUM AND CANDY AND PUPPIES AND KITTENS AND HUGS AND FUZZY BLANKETS AND CONDOMS YAAAAAAAY~~~~~~~

 

one of these things is not like the other one of these things does not belong