Why I Hate KotOR and TOR

[Darth Primus]

Meh, its strange that you accuse people here of a devotion to KotOR, yet your whole beef with KotOR is your own devotion to the comic books, a devotion so strong you come onto a KotOR message board and spend 3 pages arguing with the rest of a forum for the said comic books. That IS devotion, even if you try and say it's not.

 

I must apologize then, for I didn't quite notice if I tried to use other's people devotion as an argument. You are quite right: I do have a devotion to TotJ, whereas most other people have the same sort of devotion to KotOR.

 

Regardless I find it curious that you come onto a website of a 7 year old game where the website still has a active community and your surprised to receive a critical reaction to harsh criticism of the game. I can only but inquire what you were hoping to achieve by coming onto a website of KotOR lovers and trashing the game? Were you really expecting a different reaction?

 

First off, this website is for Star Wars lovers, not exclusively KotOR lovers. I happen to be a SW lover and KotOR hater.

 

Secondly, I expected no specific reaction at all from any of you. I was relaying my views on KotOR in the KotOR area of the Star Wars forum. Just that.

 

Perhaps you thought all of us after 7 years of thinking the game was great were going to say after one thread by yourself, were to say "Oh yeah, actually this guy is right, the game I loved and has fun playing actually sucks"! What does it matter if they love KotOR? What's it to you? If they choose to love the game that's their choice, if you hate it, that's your choice, but everyone who disagree's with you is wrong?

 

Actually, I was wondering what you people had to say to KotOR's defense. Really, I'm not impressed. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm trying to explain my views. That's quite different.

 

I finally also find it very strange that KotOR 2 is classified as "Star Wars for Kids" yet it seems at least to me in the entire Star Wars canon of media, this is the most mature part of the media in terms of storyline and contents I have experienced.

 

I guess it's because its villains are overpowered and in the end the plot was really just about destroying the Force. That's like plotting to take over the world or outright destroying the world if you ask me. So yes, that's Star Wars for kids, in an almost Gargamel-like fashion.

 

Whatever the other criticisms that can be leveled at K2, childish is not one that can be. I'm also pretty sure these days that almost all of Star Wars is for kids, given the direction Lucas has taken the films et al since ESB. Finally I somewhat feel the demography of this forum, and the fact the two KotOR games are RPG's argue against the statement that KotOR is for kids (especially given that the rating for both KotOR games is 13+ it seems more for teens and young adults than kids).

 

So here am I blabbering on about storyline and all that crap, and all I get for a reply is the game's rating, ewoks and the fact KotOR is an RPG. Did you ever play Super Mario RPG? It's an RPG. And it's for kids. Besides, 13-years old people are kids to me. I sure know I was a kid when I was 13. So was my sister. And my parents too, from what they tell me. But that's relative.

 

Besides, the storyline of the Prequel Trilogy is far deeper and more involving at all than the storyline of the Old Trilogy. So despite the flashyness and Jar Jar Binks. So the Prequels are more mature than the Original Trilogy, and the KotOR series as a whole.

 

Not that I necessarily see the issue with something being for Kids; KotOR is fun, and I enjoy playing it, if it's for kids that doesn't really matter seeing as most kids I know are considerably more knowledgeable in the art of having fun than most adults. Regardless this is my only contribution to the thread, there is little I can add that others haven't already said.

 

KotOR is a fluid game, it has good gameplay, and an interesting combat and levelling-up system. But that's game mechanics. When I stop to compare KotOR to TotJ, however, where storyline and setting are concerned, I find the KotOR wanting in all those aspects I've already said.

 

And the dicussion is on. I suppose as long as we keep things about the source material (KOTOR and TOTJ, in this case) and not about ourselves i suppose we are within the forum rules.

 

Darth Primus is entitled to his opinion and to express it freely as do we.

 

Thank you.

 

For me this thread has always been more about Tales of the Jedi rather than about KOTOR really. I haven't read the entire series previous to this post, but this discussion estimulated my curiosity. I went on and bought the STAR WARS: OMNIBUS volumes 1 and 2. So far i was able to read through the Rise and Fall of the Sith, The Beast Wars in Onderon and the Tale of Nomi Sunrider.

 

Well, if TotJ is to be put on the wall, as it has been since the beginning of the thread, I guess I might as well say something about it. To me, the TotJ series is really defined by the Freedon Nadd Uprising, The Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith Wars. Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast Wars of Onderon and The Saga of Nomi Sunrider serve more as guidelines to the main context of the settings. It does that pretty clearly to me, and we'll get to that in a moment.

 

First and foremost i haven't found a single idea both in soryline and in aesthetics that directly conflicts TOTJ and KOTOR timeline, besides the design of the ships in The Rise and Fall of the Sith Empire.

 

Well, the feel is certainly different. The early stories in TotJ (I mean the first ones to be released, not the earliest in the timeline) all suggest a decentralized Jedi leadership. Each master trains his "batch" of apprentices mostly apart from each other, each has his own training center. In KotOR (the comics too, I believe, though I haven't had the opportunity to read more than one or two chapters), there are central places of learning, where batches of Jedi masters gather. Places such as Dantooine, Coruscant, Taris (and Telos too, unless I'm mistaken).

 

Also, the Dark Side makes itself elusive throughout the whole development of the tales. So much so that an unexperienced Jedi such as Ulic believes that the it can be dealt with peacefully, and he does that not once, but two times: when he tries to convince Amanoa to put an end to the war, and when he chooses to tread the dangerous path of invading the Krath to break the sect from within.

 

Perhaps KotOR 1 is more faithful to this feel than the other, and the comics, but the overall feeling I get from everything KotOR and TOR-related is that, despite there being some sort of freedom (as displayed by Revan's rebellion), the Council makes the Order gravitate about itself. For example, the Council chooses who is to become fitting to teach other Jedi or not, as Batila says in the conversations with her. However, the overall feel of TotJ suggests to me that the one who'd feel whether a Jedis training was truly complete would be his particular Jedi master at the time. If the master felt the "apprentice" could learn nothing else from him, he'd send him over to another master, to continue/complete the training.

 

There also appears to be no clear distinction between a Jedi Knight and an apprentice at the time: Ulic, Cay and Tott all were apprentices to master Arca, but they were assigned missions of great importance to the Republic (such as the pacification of Onderon). While K1 has some similar features, such as sending an apprentice on the mission to destroy the Dark Lord of the Sith and sending another to hunt for the relics that would've made Revan powerful in the first place, the ones with the last word are always those in the Jedi Council. The Council forbade Jedi from joining in the Mandalorian wars. The Council ordered Bastila to hunt down Revan. The Jedi Council ordered Revan to find the Star Maps. The Council chooses who becomes Master, who becomes Knight or who remains an Apprentice. That is shown on the comics: Zayne Carrick would remain an apprentice, while his companions were to be made Jedi Knights, with a special ceremony and all.

 

K2, on the other hand, goes far away from that. Although there are few Jedi to speak of throughout the game, the counts given by those who exist (especially Atris and Vrook) and the recording in the droid on Dantooine suggest otherwise: apprentices shackled to their masters, who must do only as they were told by their particular master and as the Council instructs their master to do.

 

Those differences are fundamental, though really they are all I have to go with. But to me, they are central.

 

Personally i think the design in this particular series is dreadfull. It is a weird mix of Stargate: the Movie ideas and Conan, the Barbarian by John Buscema. There are some strange thechnology based on crystals and Ships that need to be hold by ropes apon landing.

 

I'd only go as far as saying the design is unique in the Star Wars universe (I'm not saying unique overall, I don't even know Stargate and Conan). And what matters the most, it is different from both movies. And it is supposed to, as I said, because of the lapse in the timeline. It certainly makes no bloody difference at all, whether the Corsair looks as it did or if it looks as the Executor, but what really matters is that at least the drawers of TotJ had the initiative of doing something different. KotOR, in the other hand, did not. They went straight over to the design everyone is accustomed with: the Sith have all those wedge-shaped starships. The Sith have red-bladed lightsabers and so forth. K2 even goes as far as changing one of the few unique designs presented in K1, the Jedi robes, into the robes seen in the movies.

 

There is one Jedi Master who is just a Shellfish in a tank, which seemed to me more of a Green Lantern Corps idea raher than a SW one.

 

I agree with you on that. The brain in a jar Jedi was a pretty stupid idea. As was the hutt owner of a repair dock, which doesn't at all act as a hutt is supposed to, with his warm-hearted attachment to the Daragons. But at least the setting is worried about "making things right": the hutt in the end is worried about his reputations, because hutts aren't really supposed to extend credit as he did, so he asks it to not be revealed to anyone. K1, on the other hand, puts hutts on menial tasks acting grand: one is the chief of a dueling ring. The other is the spokesman of Davik's bounty hunter corps (a hutt underling? That sounds plain stupid). And the last one is a minor owner of a swoop track.

 

Lightsabers have an external battery hold in the Jedi Waist (this design was depicted in the recent timeline video in the TOR website. Showing that Bioware is mindfull of the cannon)

 

That too is a very innovative idea. And it summons instantly the feel of change from the timeline of 5000 years later. As does Kun's invention of the double-bladed lightsaber, which is later trivialized by K1, putting the lamest of all Sith with double-bladed lightsabers allegedly "of their own construction" to summon Darth Maul feelings. Such a Sith is Darth Bandon, the evil-doer and very mean Sithy, and the poorest right-hand-man of a Sith Lord in all history.

 

As to BioWare's "mindfullness" (does that even exist? XD) of cannon is rather questionable, and ends when it comes to design, and to the nature of their "True Sith" empire: they are offshoots of Naga Sadow's empire, are they not? Why then does the legion that invades the Jedi Temple on Coruscant is comprised of no member of the Sith species? If they lived in isolation and secrecy, and were true Sith (in both the sect and species approach), how is it their leaders are all human? The thick of their forces are mandalorians? Where are the Massassi? And they say from the beginning their Sith Emperor was always, erm, a Sith Emperor. That instantly summons Naga Sadow. Except for the fact Sadow lived the rest of his life on Yavin IV and was not heard from since Nadd paid him a visit, became a Sith Lord, looted his treasure and went off to become king of Onderon. And who loots the treasure of a Sith Lord? The one who kills him, of course.

 

In terms of storyline it is pretty weak. Naga Sadow is supposed to be the main vilain of the series, able to destroy an entire Star System but he is defeated by one of the most nonsense plot twists i have ever seen, perpetrated by one of the weakest characters ever created in Star Wars Universe, Gav Daragon (there is a curious discussion going in TOR forums about how Gav may be the True Sith Emperor in TOR timeline LOL).

 

I won't disagree completely, where the tales of the Old Sith Empire are concerned. It seems forced and pushed over at times. But some things are very interesting, and set about by those two story arcs: the Sith at first were a species: TOR disconsiders that fact when their Sith Lords are all human that seem to follow Darth Revan's view of things, such as the design of the Sith officer's uniforms and all their red-bladed lightsabers.

 

As to Sadow's overpowered ability of destroying a star, I have to say again: just because its not shown doesn't mean there isn't some major drawback from using that sort of power. The fact Sadow left it as a manner of last resort is actually an argument to my favour.

 

And it wasn't really Sadow's power. That kind of power was allowed not by Sadow, but by his starship. But to use it safely, one must hold tremendous control over the Force and the dark side. Aleema Keto blew herself up trying to use that, so that proves my point. Besides, your KotOR also makes use of that tool: the Star Forge could be used in a similar way, not where destroying a star is concerned, but where only the most powerful Force-users and dark-siders could wield the Star Forge's power without harming themselves.

 

The Beast Wars in Onderon is just a bit better. I couldn't find anything in there that directly conflicts with KOTOR, as if KOTOR was aiming in a storyline and aesthetic more related to the prequels.

 

I don't disagree with you. But there is something to be said: in KotOR, the Sith and the Jedi, where power is concerned, are told apart by their Force lightning and their Force choke. Much like in the Prequels and the Original Trilogy. While in TotJ, the Sith's power is really defined by their touch to the old ways of the Sith: sorcery and alchemy, ancient trinkets, holocrons and Sith spiritis. Lightning and Force choke are secondary (in fact, I believe they are absent altogether). So if Revan and Malak really learned the ways of the Sith from the "true heirs of the Old Sith Empire", as cannon sets them to, where are the holocrons? The amulets, the trinkets and the Sith spirits?

 

And don't even get me started on Ajunta Pall, them guys at BW didn't even deign to design a unique sprite for the character, rather preferring to make him look like your average Dark Jedi. And he goes on and on about "their secret", what gave them power, which if you take all the story of KotOR into consideration, it isn't really related to Sith-created artifacts, but really to an alien space station capable of sucking the life force of people and spitting an endless fleet.

 

There is a Jedi Master with apprentices (Master Arca and Ulic), the Jedi Master is called "Master".

 

That's good. I never questioned the use of the term Masters. I never questioned the taking of apprentices. That is a fundamental nature of the Jedi Order: their teachings are passed from Master to Apprentice. What I really question is the use of the term Padawan, which doesn't occur on TotJ, and doesn't occur on the next source of SW timeline after KotOR, which is, I believe, Jedi vs. Sith. The usage of the term Padawan is justified by one concept: it is a popular term in the prequels, and to summon a "Star Wars feel" to some, one must make his piece as similar to the movies as possible. As BW and Obsidian did.

 

They wear robes or capes (Master Arca resembles the one with the paldrons from KOTOR).

 

Like I said, the Jedi and Sith robes in K1 are some of the few unique aspects where design is concerned. But then again its killed because every robe is the same, it's kind of a sodding Jedi uniform, or Sith uniform, for that matter. While what we see in TotJ is every Jedi with a unique design to his robes. Some wear the Jedi armor (as Ulic and Nomi), some do not (as Arca and Vodo). Some don't even wear robes at all (Thon, that may be a unique case, hehe).

 

Thon and Vodo and Arca. Odan-Urr too. They have one thing in common, apart from being powerful Jedi Masters. They are not human. We see a great lot of diversity where species is concerned, in TotJ. A tchuukthai. A krevaaki. An arkanian. A draethos. Then you compare to KotOR. Vrook, Kavar, Atris, Zez-kai Ell, Lonna Vash, Dorak. All human. Then there is the twi'lek Zhar Lestin. That'd be OK (Tott Doneeta was a twi'lek after all) if the only alien Jedi Knights weren't twi'lek. And there is the Yoda - I mean, Vandar! That doesn't even need comment. I'll be damned if the creators wouldn't make him give us all that Yoda-talk, but LA must've said their piece on that.

 

Ulic-Qel Droma (the lead character) ship has a catch name, Nebulon Ranger, in the tradition of Millenium Falcon and Ebon Hawk.

 

You should actually say in the most ancient human tradition: giving out names. And names to things that are supposed to look fabulous or fearsome, tend to be catchy. The problem would then be: the Nebulon Ranger looks like nothing else but the Nebulon Ranger. The Ebon Hawk looks a bloody lot like an early version of the YT-1300, the Millenium Falcon.

 

There isnt a mention of a Jedi Council but there is no deny either. The relations between Jedi resembled to me the one of the Green Lanterns, which brings the idea of a higher council ruling it all.

 

Like I said, the very way things are done in TotJ speaks against any existance of a Jedi Council. It is supposed to be an important body (it actually is an important body throughout KotOR). But it is not even mentioned in TotJ. It plays no role in the storyline. No role in the Jedi Order of the time, for what it's worth. But then, all of a sudden it becomes the centerpiece of the Jedi Way.

 

Somone can say it's not in TotJ because it hasn't been conceived at the time. Maybe. Maybe if TotJ was released after Episode I, as K1 did, there would be a council there. I'd hope not: it would make the Order too much like the one we see in the movies. It's not supposed to be: the Order would've changed after 4000 years of fighting Sith: the Sith sure did change in the time, so it'd make much more sense for the Jedi to change as well. But the Jedi we see on KotOR are the Jedi of the movies. They are ruled by a council, they call their apprentices Padawans, they begin training exclusively from the day of their birth, they can't marry, their government centre is the Jedi Temple on Coruscant... That gets specially uninteresting especially if you expect Jedi of the era to be less burdened by the shackles seen in the PT. Because these shackles work very well when the Sith are only two and in secrecy, but are anachronistic to an order 4000 years younger. Out of all this, only one thing is certain: If KotOR had been released before Episode I, it certainly would not have a Council, either. And that's proving my point: the Council is only set in K1 and K2 because of the Prequels.

 

Like I said before, Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast Wars of Onderon and The Saga of Nomi Sunrider are introductory in nature: it serves to set the main characters of the time: Ulic, Nomi, Arca, Thon, Tott... The events that demand the whole of Jedi attention come by in The Freedon Nadd Uprising and The Dark Lords of the Sith. That would certainly demand the actions of this phantom Jedi Council you say that could possibly exist during Exar Kun's time. But the fact remains: there is no mention of any Council, and saying otherwise is trying to accomodate KotOR's contradiction within the already established canon. Unfortunately, that's what LA is more prone to doing, and that's the problem with the "owners" of SW continuity, instead of worrying about avoiding continuity errors by working together with game creators, they leave them all the freedom, and simply allow the use of anything that doesn't contradict Lucas-set canon, which is to say the films and those of Lucas' favourites, like yoda's species and Darth Plagueis.

 

The Beast Wars series has one of the worst paces in comics. It reminded me that Image Comics aesthetics, all about splash pages and no plot, no rhythm, no character development.

 

Maybe you're right, I'm not the man to disagree with you on that point, but there is some sort of character development: Ulic saw the Dark Side was not as simple as he thought. The conclusion of that, however, doesn't come on The Beast Wars, but rather in The Freedon Nadd Uprising, the next story arc.

 

The tale of Nomi Sunrider scalates the ladder a little bit. The design is very similar in tone with SW universe. Some species depicted there were used in KOTOR 1 and 2. There is a Hutt crime lord with a gang composed of Weequays, Nikto's and Baradas much like the original movies and i couldn't find any lack of harmony with KOTOR, except the fact that Nomi's was married to a Jedi.

 

Again, the two series are clearly set apart with the coming of The Freedon Nadd Uprising and The Dark Lords of the Sith.

 

All things considered and weighted i now more than before believe that if it would be fair to compare an interactive entertainement as KOTOR with a Comic Book, as the OP proposes, i would say that KOTOR is far more superior than it's predecessors without neglecting too much the continuitu stablished in the comics, with the exception of the things that made no sense in a SW universe.

 

And now you're saying Darth Galactus eating whole planets makes more sense than Sadow's ship destroying stars? Or maybe that the Sith zombie is also more Star Warsy than Force spirits? Or maybe you mean to say that it's a lot more Star Wars-like if the Sith Empire of old was only so powerful as it was because of a Space station they happened to find, a space station that the Sith did not construct, and was the centerpiece of their Empire. That their holocrons, blasters, their hyperdrives, their starships weren't really invented by any of the people in the Republic or some other bodies, but rather created by this godly unheard-of species, the Rakata? That is absurd.

 

Where KotOR tries to be "innovative", they harm the whole Star Wars universe. Where they strive not to be innovative, they spit on TotJ's face. And the fact they mention Kun and Qel-Droma, the destruction of Ossus or the Sith species has no bearing at all to the big picture: the whole KotOR speaks of them as if they were really 40 years old, but as you play the game, you get the feeling all that's just ancient. You don't hear of Nomi, of Vima (wouldn't she be a big time Jedi master at the time of KotOR? She'd be in her prime, 40 years of age). The only solid link the game cares to make with that time is an old Jedi that relays tales that are either incomplete, incompatible or otherwise contradictory with the time he's supposed to have experienced.

 

The comparison does not regarding different media. It regards the setting and feel of Star Wars in both pieces, that are pieces of Star Wars history. The fact the KotOR is a videogame doesn't mean they should build the prequel world with many Sith and a mysterious species that created everything in Star Wars technology. Those things are quite dissociable, and indeed they should be.

[Jae Onasi]

This thread has clearly reached the point where it needs a serious injection of Jae-canon.

BTW:

"Cannon" and "Canon" are two very different things. It was canon to have ion cannons in The Empire Strikes Back. Using 'cannon' in place of 'canon' is not canon, and is right out. Thank you.

 

Statement on the new 6 degrees of Star Wars Canon

 

We, at WookieWikiWarrickWicketpedia, wish to clear up the confusion of ‘Canon’ in Star Wars by instituting a new classification system on how to rank the different Star Wars and Star Wars EU materials. This will replace the Canon-a, b, c and g system (along with other letters and symbols), which was becoming just too confusing, resulting in many emails from forum administrators and moderators who were ‘having to deal with too damn many threads on arguments over Canon’.

 

1st degree Canon shall be The Movies. Radio adaptations, so long as they include voices from the Original Actors (and Actresses) shall also be 1st degree Canon. The Screenplays are also 1st degree Canon, but only if George Lucas put a ‘GL’ on every page. The official soundtracks are 1st degree Canon, because John Williams has included the use of both the bassoon and the triangle in his music, and quite possibly the krummhorn. Anything spoken by George Lucas is first degree Canon, including those more mundane statements like ‘I want to order a pizza’ and ‘I have to find the nearest restroom.’

 

2nd degree Canon shall include those radio adaptations that deviate from the script slightly but still maintain the ‘True Spirit’ of the movies. Those radio adaptations that include the voices of Harrison Ford or Liam Neeson shall automatically be changed to 1st degree Canon, because their voices are really sexy. Those adaptations that include excess amounts of Jar-Jar Binks or Ewok cuteness shall automatically be reduced to 6th degree Canon or less.

 

3rd degree Canon shall include any books that George Lucas decides shall be 3rd degree, which is pretty much everything else not in the 1st and 2nd degrees. It’s his world—if he wants to say a book is 1st degree or 6th degree, we shall bow to his greater wisdom. The exception are the Vong books, which shall be reduced to 6th degree or the 9th circle of Dante’s Inferno, whichever comes last. All Star Wars games are 3rd degree Canon. The Knights of the Old Republic games, because they are Really Righteous, are 2nd degree Canon. We hereby declare all permutations of Revan and Exile to be Canon, because trying to pick just one is really p!$$ing off the fans. The Star Wars Lego games would be 4th degree Canon because of the ‘cutesy factor’, except for the fact that my son really likes the games, so they stay at 3rd degree.

 

4th degree Canon includes any comic books. Graphic novels remain at 3rd degree because ‘graphic novel’ sounds more cool than ‘comic book.’ The exception is the Knights of the Old Republic comic book series, which is destined to become a Graphic Novel when bound together, and because they’ve drawn Zayne Carrick really cute. It’s at least 3rd degree, and we might even make that series 2nd degree if sales continue to be good.

 

5th degree Canon includes all fan-fiction, unless they are “Really Good,” which, by our definition, is anything with over 1,000 views on LucasForums or over 15 thumbs-ups on kotorfanmedia. If they’re “Really Good”, then they can, at the option of the administrators, moderators, machievelli, or the author, move to 4th degree. The exception is if the spam-per-view ratio approaches 1:82, in which case the fanfic shall be declared ‘spammy’ and the fic drops to 6th degree. Action figures are 5th degree Canon, unless they involve Yoda, Han Solo, or Luke Skywalker. These are 1st degree Canon because I like them and because Frank Oz rules.

 

6th degree Canon includes any speculative posts on any forums. It also includes any non-speculative posts, comments, jokes, pictures, and other written, visual, or aural media. Anything else not already specified shall be 6th degree Canon, unless the author finds something she really likes, in which case the Degree of Canon may be altered accordingly. Forum posts that are written by administrators or moderators shall be whatever Degree of Canon they desire, because the author feels the need to suck up, unless George Lucas declares otherwise, because his 1st degree is more equal than everyone else’s 1st degree.

 

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[Prime]

My head hurts, Jae!

[jonathan7]

First off, this website is for Star Wars lovers, not exclusively KotOR lovers. I happen to be a SW lover and KotOR hater.

 

Firstly as a member of staff, and specifically a forum moderator for this section, I'm pretty sure I know how the forums work... So first you say that, and then you say this;

 

Secondly, I expected no specific reaction at all from any of you. I was relaying my views on KotOR in the KotOR area of the Star Wars forum. Just that.

 

So on the one hand you know this is the KotOR section, yet you seem to think its for all Star Wars lovers? I'm pretty sure the KotOR section is the KotOR lovers but, maybe thats just some strange wacky idea I had. But I'm pretty sure you posted here BECAUSE it was the KotOR section... Where funnily enough people who like KotOR hang out.

 

Actually, I was wondering what you people had to say to KotOR's defense. Really, I'm not impressed. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm trying to explain my views. That's quite different.

 

I'm not impressed with a single argument you've made so guess that's moot, though undoubtedly Churchill was correct; "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject". This thread has been boring since page 1.

 

I guess it's because its villains are overpowered and in the end the plot was really just about destroying the Force. That's like plotting to take over the world or outright destroying the world if you ask me. So yes, that's Star Wars for kids, in an almost Gargamel-like fashion.

 

Sorry have you even read some of the post OT literature? Not to mention the fact that some of the Sith in Tales of the Jedi are just as ridiculously overpowered, yet your psyche seems to conveniently ignore these points and rationalize them away.

 

Besides, the storyline of the Prequel Trilogy is far deeper and more involving at all than the storyline of the Old Trilogy. So despite the flashyness and Jar Jar Binks. So the Prequels are more mature than the Original Trilogy, and the KotOR series as a whole.

 

THIS says it all.

 

KotOR is a fluid game, it has good gameplay, and an interesting combat and levelling-up system. But that's game mechanics. When I stop to compare KotOR to TotJ, however, where storyline and setting are concerned, I find the KotOR wanting in all those aspects I've already said.

 

I've found most of your arguments wanting, and given that you find the entire forums arguments wanting, why don't we just leave it there?

[Lynk Former]

At least you're all arguing/debating/whatever about stuff that actually matters in this world... video games

[Darth Avlectus]

like serious business.

[Canaan Sadow]

First off, this website is for Star Wars lovers, not exclusively KotOR lovers. I happen to be a SW lover and KotOR hater.

 

*refers to Jonathan7's post* It's true you know. You see up there when you reply it says LucasForums > Network > KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC > Community > Ahto Spaceport Catina > Why I hate KotOR and TOR

 

(The last three are irrelevant, what I have bolded and italicized is what really matters.)

 

Secondly, I expected no specific reaction at all from any of you. I was relaying my views on KotOR in the KotOR area of the Star Wars forum. Just that.

 

Odd, I assumed that by treading into these active forums you expected a response. Specific or not, you should have known that we would reply. Especially considering that there's usually a post ever hour (if not sooner).

 

 

Actually, I was wondering what you people had to say to KotOR's defense. Really, I'm not impressed. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm trying to explain my views. That's quite different.

 

*coughs* Talk about a contradiction to what you said previously before it. You were stating that you didn't want a specific reaction, yet you just said that you were curious as to how we would defend KotOR. Call me crazy, but that's a specific reaction.

 

 

I guess it's because its villains are overpowered and in the end the plot was really just about destroying the Force. That's like plotting to take over the world or outright destroying the world if you ask me. So yes, that's Star Wars for kids, in an almost Gargamel-like fashion.

 

Are our villians so much overpowered that you forget Darth Plagues (not sure I spelled his name right...). That Dark Lord had the ability to mess around with Midichlorians and create/preserve life. Anakin Skywalker was the prime example of that... that seems quite overpowered to me. Also, Darth Bane... completely reforming the ways of the Sith from a Brotherhood to the Rule of Two, overpowered, imo.

 

 

So here am I blabbering on about storyline and all that crap, and all I get for a reply is the game's rating, ewoks and the fact KotOR is an RPG. Did you ever play Super Mario RPG? It's an RPG. And it's for kids. Besides, 13-years old people are kids to me. I sure know I was a kid when I was 13. So was my sister. And my parents too, from what they tell me. But that's relative.

 

Umm... where are you going with this? You went from Super Mario RPG to you classifying 13 year olds as kids. o_o I

 

f your saying that anyone who plays Super Mario are kids, well then lock up my entire family for thinking otherwise... I'm 18 (my parents are 42-47) and we all still enjoy the old classic, hell... I even went out of my way to buy the old console just to play the "childish game".

 

However, KotOR is nothing in comparison. If you titled it a kid's game, just because it's an RPG then well... I know lots of rated M games that are "kid's" games. Fable Series for example.

 

Besides, the storyline of the Prequel Trilogy is far deeper and more involving at all than the storyline of the Old Trilogy. So despite the flashyness and Jar Jar Binks. So the Prequels are more mature than the Original Trilogy, and the KotOR series as a whole.

 

And what does the Old Trilogy have to do with anything? This isn't a forum about the movies... it's a KotOR.

 

And what the hell are you talking about the "flashyness and Jar Jar Binks"? I'm fairly certain the "flashyness" makes them "better" as you claim (though I still hold onto the Original Trilogy was much better).

 

Also Jar Jar Binks was one of the characters that I actually liked in the New Trilogy. Probably because I'm clumsy like he is... however that's getting off topic.

 

Also, explain what you mean that the New Trilogy is more mature than KotOR, because I'm fairly certain that the only more "mature" thing is that Anakin gets Padme pregnant.

 

KotOR is a fluid game, it has good gameplay, and an interesting combat and levelling-up system. But that's game mechanics. When I stop to compare KotOR to TotJ, however, where storyline and setting are concerned, I find the KotOR wanting in all those aspects I've already said.

 

And you're so certain that TotJ are the godkind of Star Wars. I could pull something out of my ass, throw in a few Jedi or Sith and call it Star Wars. I'm not saying that TotJ are crap, because I've never actually read them. But just that because a comicbook/book (not sure which it is) says something is Canon, doesn't necessarily mean it is. I mean hell, George Lucas is the father of Star Wars, he decides what is Canon and what is not.

 

 

Well, if TotJ is to be put on the wall, as it has been since the beginning of the thread, I guess I might as well say something about it. To me, the TotJ series is really defined by the Freedon Nadd Uprising, The Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith Wars. Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast Wars of Onderon and The Saga of Nomi Sunrider serve more as guidelines to the main context of the settings. It does that pretty clearly to me, and we'll get to that in a moment.

 

Oh so Freedon Nadd is now a huge part of KotOR? I'm fairly certain that I've only heard his name in passing. Yes he was ruler of Onderon and Talia's ancestor, but quite frankly he's only mentioned. He's not ever seen in the game (other than his corpse).

 

What Dark Lords of the Sith? Marka Ragnos, Ajunta Pall, ect? I fail to see how they're the major points of either game. Ajunta Pall was redeemable in KotOR1 and you had to find Sith Artifacts for Uthar, but they were just on one planet... the true focus of that game was Darth Malak, a FALSE Sith Lord.

 

As for KotOR2, the "Dark Lords" names were mentioned only in passing. The only Dark Lords seen in the game were the Sith Triumvirate and Darth Revan as a vision.

 

The Beast Wars of Onderon played a major role in KotOR2? Since when? The only thing is that the Beast Riders were allowed inside of the walls of Iziz and they're pretty much useless, I mean seriously.

 

Naomi Sunrider, eh? The only thing I've ever seen of that woman was her robe in KotOR2 and in a mod, she was seen. That is all.

 

Well, the feel is certainly different. The early stories in TotJ (I mean the first ones to be released, not the earliest in the timeline) all suggest a decentralized Jedi leadership. Each master trains his "batch" of apprentices mostly apart from each other, each has his own training center. In KotOR (the comics too, I believe, though I haven't had the opportunity to read more than one or two chapters), there are central places of learning, where batches of Jedi masters gather. Places such as Dantooine, Coruscant, Taris (and Telos too, unless I'm mistaken).

 

Telos wasn't a place of learning... it was merely Atris' escape destination.

 

As for everything else... Look at Luke Skywalker, Jedi Grand Master... he gave his position up for a Jedi Council, because he believed that his 'apprentice' who would take on the mantle could very well easily fall to the Darkside of the Force. Did it ever occur to you that the Jedi changed their minds as Luke did?

 

There also appears to be no clear distinction between a Jedi Knight and an apprentice at the time: Ulic, Cay and Tott all were apprentices to master Arca, but they were assigned missions of great importance to the Republic (such as the pacification of Onderon). While K1 has some similar features, such as sending an apprentice on the mission to destroy the Dark Lord of the Sith and sending another to hunt for the relics that would've made Revan powerful in the first place, the ones with the last word are always those in the Jedi Council. The Council forbade Jedi from joining in the Mandalorian wars. The Council ordered Bastila to hunt down Revan. The Jedi Council ordered Revan to find the Star Maps. The Council chooses who becomes Master, who becomes Knight or who remains an Apprentice. That is shown on the comics: Zayne Carrick would remain an apprentice, while his companions were to be made Jedi Knights, with a special ceremony and all.

 

Obviously there isn't much of a clear distinction between Padawan and Jedi Knight in KotOR either. They send a man and a woman who are still apprentices into the galaxy to hunt down the relics of the Star Forge. As well as to destroy Malak. Call me insane, but I'm fairly certain that in this regards, a Padawan is much like a Knight... and you can't even count Juhani as a Knight traveling with Revan and Bastila. Because LS she isn't Revan nor Bastila's master... and DS she's dead.

 

Yes, the Jedi Council told the Order what to do, however also realize that even if it had been one specific master rather than a group of four, that their mission still would have been the same.

 

K2, on the other hand, goes far away from that. Although there are few Jedi to speak of throughout the game, the counts given by those who exist (especially Atris and Vrook) and the recording in the droid on Dantooine suggest otherwise: apprentices shackled to their masters, who must do only as they were told by their particular master and as the Council instructs their master to do.

 

Those differences are fundamental, though really they are all I have to go with. But to me, they are central.

 

What differences? A the Council is made up of Jedi Masters... they themselves have trained Padawans... they know what must be done to preserve peace in the Galaxy.

 

And just so you can't say they were cowards for fleeing... yes the fled into hiding, but also didn't Master Yoda, Master Obi-wan, Master(?) Kota, Master Kazdan, ect... run into hiding after the Dark Lord ordered their destruction? Yes... because they knew that the salvation of the Jedi laid in wait... as did the Council then.

 

 

I'd only go as far as saying the design is unique in the Star Wars universe (I'm not saying unique overall, I don't even know Stargate and Conan). And what matters the most, it is different from both movies. And it is supposed to, as I said, because of the lapse in the timeline. It certainly makes no bloody difference at all, whether the Corsair looks as it did or if it looks as the Executor, but what really matters is that at least the drawers of TotJ had the initiative of doing something different. KotOR, in the other hand, did not. They went straight over to the design everyone is accustomed with: the Sith have all those wedge-shaped starships. The Sith have red-bladed lightsabers and so forth. K2 even goes as far as changing one of the few unique designs presented in K1, the Jedi robes, into the robes seen in the movies.

 

Oh so the whole Sith have Red Lightsabers thing, eh? Well... I know of one Sith in particular who did not use only Red Lightsabers... another thing is that there are Jedi who have used Red Lightsabers, hence the reason the PC is able to find Red Crystals on Dantooine... and if you disagree with me, that's fine... but I vaguely remember seeing a Jedi holding a red lightsaber in the Clone Wars... (though I haven't watched that old series in forever).

 

Yes and your point? There are mods that remedy that... yes I realize that in essence what you say is true about the robes being changed, however do realize that there is a modding society here who fixes/creates things they feel should have been in the game or should not have been changed/taken out.

 

I agree with you on that. The brain in a jar Jedi was a pretty stupid idea. As was the hutt owner of a repair dock, which doesn't at all act as a hutt is supposed to, with his warm-hearted attachment to the Daragons. But at least the setting is worried about "making things right": the hutt in the end is worried about his reputations, because hutts aren't really supposed to extend credit as he did, so he asks it to not be revealed to anyone. K1, on the other hand, puts hutts on menial tasks acting grand: one is the chief of a dueling ring. The other is the spokesman of Davik's bounty hunter corps (a hutt underling? That sounds plain stupid). And the last one is a minor owner of a swoop track.

 

I was under the impression that Hutts enjoy fighting, Jabba for example threw people he disliked to his rancor... and who said that particular Hutt worked for Davik? He was merely a bounty hunter's source of information... as well as the one who paid the bounty hunter for the work he/she did. That is all. Maybe he liked Swoop Races? *points to your post about the hutt in TotJ* If they are able to do something like that, why can't KotOR make a Hutt in charge of a Swoop Track???

 

 

That too is a very innovative idea. And it summons instantly the feel of change from the timeline of 5000 years later. As does Kun's invention of the double-bladed lightsaber, which is later trivialized by K1, putting the lamest of all Sith with double-bladed lightsabers allegedly "of their own construction" to summon Darth Maul feelings. Such a Sith is Darth Bandon, the evil-doer and very mean Sithy, and the poorest right-hand-man of a Sith Lord in all history.

 

Kun created the double bladed lightsaber, so who's to say they didn't follow the earlier Dark Lord's ideals? And where in KotOR does it say that the double bladed lightsabers are "of their own construction"? Bandon never mentioned such, nor did any other Dark Jedi/Sith.

 

As to BioWare's "mindfullness" (does that even exist? XD) of cannon is rather questionable, and ends when it comes to design, and to the nature of their "True Sith" empire: they are offshoots of Naga Sadow's empire, are they not? Why then does the legion that invades the Jedi Temple on Coruscant is comprised of no member of the Sith species? If they lived in isolation and secrecy, and were true Sith (in both the sect and species approach), how is it their leaders are all human? The thick of their forces are mandalorians? Where are the Massassi? And they say from the beginning their Sith Emperor was always, erm, a Sith Emperor. That instantly summons Naga Sadow. Except for the fact Sadow lived the rest of his life on Yavin IV and was not heard from since Nadd paid him a visit, became a Sith Lord, looted his treasure and went off to become king of Onderon. And who loots the treasure of a Sith Lord? The one who kills him, of course.

 

I fail to see where you're going with this? Do you not think it's possible that the True Sith died out or went into the Unknown Regions before Naga Sadow? I certainly did when I was only 13, because I open my mind to every possibility, not just one.

 

I won't disagree completely, where the tales of the Old Sith Empire are concerned. It seems forced and pushed over at times. But some things are very interesting, and set about by those two story arcs: the Sith at first were a species: TOR disconsiders that fact when their Sith Lords are all human that seem to follow Darth Revan's view of things, such as the design of the Sith officer's uniforms and all their red-bladed lightsabers.

 

Humans are also the dominant species in the Star War Universe, just saying. There are even very few Jedi who are other species than humans in the game. And it's possible that those are just the Jedi we see... and the same could go for the Sith. Darth Traya, Sion and Nihilus were all upon Malchor V by this time I assume, so there could have been other species of Sith, just those which were unseen.

 

As to Sadow's overpowered ability of destroying a star, I have to say again: just because its not shown doesn't mean there isn't some major drawback from using that sort of power. The fact Sadow left it as a manner of last resort is actually an argument to my favour.

 

And it wasn't really Sadow's power. That kind of power was allowed not by Sadow, but by his starship. But to use it safely, one must hold tremendous control over the Force and the dark side. Aleema Keto blew herself up trying to use that, so that proves my point. Besides, your KotOR also makes use of that tool: the Star Forge could be used in a similar way, not where destroying a star is concerned, but where only the most powerful Force-users and dark-siders could wield the Star Forge's power without harming themselves.

 

No one said that a Darksider had to use the Star Forge... Revan simply "fell" to the Darkside in the Unknown Regions because he/she thought that the Darkside would help him/her to protect the Republic. Master Vandar claims that he believes the Star Forge is dark in power if Revan chooses to side with Bastila, but is it not possible that the only Darkness he feels emanates from Bastila and Revan? Is there not the possibility that the Star Forge itself is an item of the Gray side of the Force, used for either the Darkside or the Lightside? Yes the Republic destroyed the Star Forge, to prevent the Sith from gaining more power... but it's also very likely that the Star Forge could have been used by the Republic's Jedi Masters to aid them as well... they just feared that it was one of the things that turned Revan. It's never really made clear that the Star Forge is an artifact of evil... just that it's users were Darksided themselves.

 

 

I don't disagree with you. But there is something to be said: in KotOR, the Sith and the Jedi, where power is concerned, are told apart by their Force lightning and their Force choke. Much like in the Prequels and the Original Trilogy. While in TotJ, the Sith's power is really defined by their touch to the old ways of the Sith: sorcery and alchemy, ancient trinkets, holocrons and Sith spiritis. Lightning and Force choke are secondary (in fact, I believe they are absent altogether). So if Revan and Malak really learned the ways of the Sith from the "true heirs of the Old Sith Empire", as cannon sets them to, where are the holocrons? The amulets, the trinkets and the Sith spirits?

 

Set Lightning and Choke aside. They can be learned by a Jedi and used on the Lightside of the Force. My Lightsided Revan learns those abilities, just as my Darksided Revan learns heal. The powers themselves do not define the Jedi/Sith that uses them... it's /how/ they use them. If what you said was true, then the Lightning and Choke would be locked in the game until after you decide to become Darth Revan with Bastila (if you choose that). Holocrons... there's one on Korriban, in KotOR2 as well (also Atris' meditation room is full of Sith Holocrons)... as for the Amulets, explain how the amulets would be known given the way the game is... there is no neck slot so in essence, no need for the amulets... as for Sith Spirits, there is Ajunta Pall in KotOR1 and the Hssiss in KotOR2.

 

And don't even get me started on Ajunta Pall, them guys at BW didn't even deign to design a unique sprite for the character, rather preferring to make him look like your average Dark Jedi. And he goes on and on about "their secret", what gave them power, which if you take all the story of KotOR into consideration, it isn't really related to Sith-created artifacts, but really to an alien space station capable of sucking the life force of people and spitting an endless fleet.

 

They didn't give Ajunta Pall a unique look, except for making him shimmer, this is true... but he was also seen for a grand total of maybe 10 minutes. What would have been the point to create a unique appearance for a Spirit which won't even be seen but once. The Star Forge was unable to suck the life force out of people... that was Malak.

 

That's good. I never questioned the use of the term Masters. I never questioned the taking of apprentices. That is a fundamental nature of the Jedi Order: their teachings are passed from Master to Apprentice. What I really question is the use of the term Padawan, which doesn't occur on TotJ, and doesn't occur on the next source of SW timeline after KotOR, which is, I believe, Jedi vs. Sith. The usage of the term Padawan is justified by one concept: it is a popular term in the prequels, and to summon a "Star Wars feel" to some, one must make his piece as similar to the movies as possible. As BW and Obsidian did.

 

That is a valid statement, I will not disagree there.

 

Like I said, the Jedi and Sith robes in K1 are some of the few unique aspects where design is concerned. But then again its killed because every robe is the same, it's kind of a sodding Jedi uniform, or Sith uniform, for that matter. While what we see in TotJ is every Jedi with a unique design to his robes. Some wear the Jedi armor (as Ulic and Nomi), some do not (as Arca and Vodo). Some don't even wear robes at all (Thon, that may be a unique case, hehe).

 

Oh so they should have taken the time to create unique appearances for robes on everyone? If that were the case, I highly doubt the game would be released yet... as for the Jedi Armor, I highly reccomend that you go play KotOR2 again. They have Sith and Jedi Armors. :]

 

Thon and Vodo and Arca. Odan-Urr too. They have one thing in common, apart from being powerful Jedi Masters. They are not human. We see a great lot of diversity where species is concerned, in TotJ. A tchuukthai. A krevaaki. An arkanian. A draethos. Then you compare to KotOR. Vrook, Kavar, Atris, Zez-kai Ell, Lonna Vash, Dorak. All human. Then there is the twi'lek Zhar Lestin. That'd be OK (Tott Doneeta was a twi'lek after all) if the only alien Jedi Knights weren't twi'lek. And there is the Yoda - I mean, Vandar! That doesn't even need comment. I'll be damned if the creators wouldn't make him give us all that Yoda-talk, but LA must've said their piece on that.

 

There are other Species in the game... as I have stated earlier, do you not think it's possible that we just didn't see the other species? As for the Vandar/Yoda species, did you honestly believe that Yoda and Yaddle were the only two of the Species? Of course they'd need to descend from somewhere... and it's only natural that their species be strong in the Force considering how strong Yoda was... it's not really an odd thing to see Vandar on the Council, if you honestly think about it.

 

You should actually say in the most ancient human tradition: giving out names. And names to things that are supposed to look fabulous or fearsome, tend to be catchy. The problem would then be: the Nebulon Ranger looks like nothing else but the Nebulon Ranger. The Ebon Hawk looks a bloody lot like an early version of the YT-1300, the Millenium Falcon.

 

It does, but did it ever occur to you that the YT-1300 needed a father/mother ship to have it created? A ship model is not something you can just pull out of thin air... they gradually evolve.

 

Like I said, the very way things are done in TotJ speaks against any existance of a Jedi Council. It is supposed to be an important body (it actually is an important body throughout KotOR). But it is not even mentioned in TotJ. It plays no role in the storyline. No role in the Jedi Order of the time, for what it's worth. But then, all of a sudden it becomes the centerpiece of the Jedi Way.

 

*refers you to my earlier statement about Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Council*

 

Somone can say it's not in TotJ because it hasn't been conceived at the time. Maybe. Maybe if TotJ was released after Episode I, as K1 did, there would be a council there. I'd hope not: it would make the Order too much like the one we see in the movies. It's not supposed to be

 

Oh so you decide what is and what isn't supposed to be now? Interesting... I had no clue you were George Lucas.

 

: the Order would've changed after 4000 years of fighting Sith: the Sith sure did change in the time, so it'd make much more sense for the Jedi to change as well. But the Jedi we see on KotOR are the Jedi of the movies. They are ruled by a council, they call their apprentices Padawans, they begin training exclusively from the day of their birth, they can't marry, their government centre is the Jedi Temple on Coruscant...

 

That just goes to show you that you have /no/ clue as to what you're talking about. Bastila remembers a time with her family... she wasn't given to the Jedi Order upon birth...

 

No they can't marry but look at where it got them just before KotOR? Husband turned on Wife and it nearly split the Order in two... (hmmm... perhaps maybe the Jedi Council came into being just after this to prevent another situation such as the from happening again.)

 

Oh the "government" center is the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, huh? Explain then why there were Jedi Masters on Dantooine that had formed a Council. They consulted with the Masters on Coruscant, yes, as did the Masters on Courscant consult with the Masters on Dantooine.

 

That gets specially uninteresting especially if you expect Jedi of the era to be less burdened by the shackles seen in the PT. Because these shackles work very well when the Sith are only two and in secrecy, but are anachronistic to an order 4000 years younger. Out of all this, only one thing is certain: If KotOR had been released before Episode I, it certainly would not have a Council, either. And that's proving my point: the Council is only set in K1 and K2 because of the Prequels.

 

Oh so you know that for a fact huh? It must be great to have such powers of divination. I certainly would like to know how things could be different had things been just a bit different. Prove to me how you know everything you stated in the above quote and I'll believe you... but the fact of the matter is you /can't/ prove it. (:

 

Like I said before, Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast Wars of Onderon and The Saga of Nomi Sunrider are introductory in nature: it serves to set the main characters of the time: Ulic, Nomi, Arca, Thon, Tott... The events that demand the whole of Jedi attention come by in The Freedon Nadd Uprising and The Dark Lords of the Sith. That would certainly demand the actions of this phantom Jedi Council you say that could possibly exist during Exar Kun's time. But the fact remains: there is no mention of any Council, and saying otherwise is trying to accomodate KotOR's contradiction within the already established canon. Unfortunately, that's what LA is more prone to doing, and that's the problem with the "owners" of SW continuity, instead of worrying about avoiding continuity errors by working together with game creators, they leave them all the freedom, and simply allow the use of anything that doesn't contradict Lucas-set canon, which is to say the films and those of Lucas' favourites, like yoda's species and Darth Plagueis.

 

BLAH BLAH BLAH! You're repeating yourself because you think it'll strengthen your argument, when it makes no sense for it to be there at all... I failed to see anything in Xavier's post about any of that.

 

Maybe you're right, I'm not the man to disagree with you on that point, but there is some sort of character development: Ulic saw the Dark Side was not as simple as he thought. The conclusion of that, however, doesn't come on The Beast Wars, but rather in The Freedon Nadd Uprising, the next story arc.

 

Revan didn't see the Darkside as simple either... just sayin...

 

And now you're saying Darth Galactus eating whole planets makes more sense than Sadow's ship destroying stars? Or maybe that the Sith zombie is also more Star Warsy than Force spirits? Or maybe you mean to say that it's a lot more Star Wars-like if the Sith Empire of old was only so powerful as it was because of a Space station they happened to find, a space station that the Sith did not construct, and was the centerpiece of their Empire. That their holocrons, blasters, their hyperdrives, their starships weren't really invented by any of the people in the Republic or some other bodies, but rather created by this godly unheard-of species, the Rakata? That is absurd.

 

Darth Galactus eh? Cute. However Nihilus did not "eat" the planets, he sucked the Force clean out of them... leaving the entire planet a former husk of itself. If he "ate" the planets then it would have been destroyed completely... but no, unlike with Sadow and Sidious, the planet remained.

 

Where KotOR tries to be "innovative", they harm the whole Star Wars universe. Where they strive not to be innovative, they spit on TotJ's face. And the fact they mention Kun and Qel-Droma, the destruction of Ossus or the Sith species has no bearing at all to the big picture: the whole KotOR speaks of them as if they were really 40 years old, but as you play the game, you get the feeling all that's just ancient. You don't hear of Nomi, of Vima (wouldn't she be a big time Jedi master at the time of KotOR? She'd be in her prime, 40 years of age). The only solid link the game cares to make with that time is an old Jedi that relays tales that are either incomplete, incompatible or otherwise contradictory with the time he's supposed to have experienced.

 

I was unaware that a time period would be unable to change things. Who's to say Vima didn't die? There's no proof she did, but there's also no proof that she didn't.

 

The comparison does not regarding different media. It regards the setting and feel of Star Wars in both pieces, that are pieces of Star Wars history. The fact the KotOR is a videogame doesn't mean they should build the prequel world with many Sith and a mysterious species that created everything in Star Wars technology. Those things are quite dissociable, and indeed they should be.

 

No one claimed the Rakata built everything in Star Wars technology. Merely that they created the Star Maps and the Star Forge. Kreia when she mentioned the use of the Great Hyperspace War did /not/ mention the Rakata built the hyperdrives or anything.

[Darth Primus]

Firstly as a member of staff, and specifically a forum moderator for this section, I'm pretty sure I know how the forums work... So first you say that, and then you say this;

 

 

 

So on the one hand you know this is the KotOR section, yet you seem to think its for all Star Wars lovers? I'm pretty sure the KotOR section is the KotOR lovers but, maybe thats just some strange wacky idea I had. But I'm pretty sure you posted here BECAUSE it was the KotOR section... Where funnily enough people who like KotOR hang out.

 

Well, then this was a result of a faulty usage of words. By website, I understood Lucasforums as a whole, not just the KotOR section of the website Lucasforums.

 

I'm not impressed with a single argument you've made so guess that's moot, though undoubtedly Churchill was correct; "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject". This thread has been boring since page 1.

 

I might be saying the same. To me, my arguments are perfectly justified. So much so that you won't convince me otherwise, no matter what you say. To you, certainly your arguments are perfectly justified as well, though I cannot say if anything I say can actually change your mind (I sure as hell know that's not the reason I posted this thread in the first place).

 

Sorry have you even read some of the post OT literature? Not to mention the fact that some of the Sith in Tales of the Jedi are just as ridiculously overpowered, yet your psyche seems to conveniently ignore these points and rationalize them away.

 

"Some" of the Sith. In the entirety of TotJ, only Sadow can use his power safely (for himself). In the entirety of TotJ, that power is used only three times. Two times by the power's master, one time by an average Jane who didn't know what she was dealing with, and in the process destroyed the very means of ever using such power again.

 

I may be rationalizing, but at least it's possible to rationalize it over in this case. What's to say of Darth Sion then? Or Darth Galactus, what would you say about him? So yes, TotJ may have overstepped in putting Sadow's nova-inducing starship. But you should also admit the zombie and Galactus are far worse, in most respects.

 

I've found most of your arguments wanting, and given that you find the entire forums arguments wanting, why don't we just leave it there?

 

As long as there are people willing to discuss this (a.k.a., people replying to this thread), I'll sure as hell do too.

[Jae Onasi]

like serious business.

Hey--where's that picture of Niner?

[Boba Rhett]

[Jae Onasi]

*Jae hugs Boba Rhett*

 

I may be rationalizing, but at least it's possible to rationalize it over in this case. What's to say of Darth Sion then? Or Darth Galactus, what would you say about him? So yes, TotJ may have overstepped in putting Sadow's nova-inducing starship. But you should also admit the zombie and Galactus are far worse, in most respects.

 

There is no "Galactus" in either Kotor or TSL.

 

Why are we comparing comic books to video games, anyway? That's like comparing the Wii plastic lightsabers to sex.

[mimartin]

Only five more post of the Niner pic to reach 1000 times posted. Keep posting and you could win a chance at a no-expenses paid trip to Jae’s house for all the rum cookies you can eat.

 

This thread has been boring since page 1.[/Quote]You should be up for Sainthood J7. I got bored shortly after reading the word “hate” in the title.

 

That's like comparing the Wii plastic lightsabers to sex.

Not going to ask how you came up with that. Not going to ask...

[The Doctor]

Why are we comparing comic books to video games, anyway? That's like comparing the Wii plastic lightsabers to sex.

 

Surely such comparisons can only be made by those who've...

 

Never mind. >_<

[Canaan Sadow]

I may be rationalizing, but at least it's possible to rationalize it over in this case. What's to say of Darth Sion then? Or Darth Galactus, what would you say about him? So yes, TotJ may have overstepped in putting Sadow's nova-inducing starship. But you should also admit the zombie and Galactus are far worse, in most respects.

 

Oh so Sadow's nova-inducing starship is okay, even though it screams a complete replica of the Original Trilogy. *coughs* *Sidious' Death Star* *coughs* But it's not okay for KotOR to "mimick" the Prequal trilogy and have a Jedi Council. Odd how such a "rationalization" makes sense.

 

What of Darth Sion? Darth Vader was nothing but a walking zombie as well... that suit was the only thing that kept him alive. As for Darth Nihlus how is someone who destroy's a world any worse than Sadow or Sidious? They both did the nearly the same.

 

*raises an eyebrow* You know you try to rationalize and make others see your way of thinking, but in trying to prove your point, you just give us more fuel. If you really want to know the truth TotJ reflect that of the OLD trilogy as KotOR reflects the Prequal Trilogy (and a bit of the Old Trilogy as well, but that's besides the point). So instead of bad talking KotOR why don't you get off your high horse and try to stop your useless ranting?

 

Why are we comparing comic books to video games, anyway? That's like comparing the Wii plastic lightsabers to sex.

 

*facepalm* Only one who has ever experienced both would know to compare them to the others. *grimaces and backs away from Jae slowly*

[Mav]

This is all well and good, but who would win in a fight? Revan vs. OP?

[Canaan Sadow]

Revan definitely. The OP will just yell "insults" at him telling him he's a retarded Sith who is nothing more than a remake of Anakin and that his Jedi Council is false and the Sith that follow him shouldn't use Red Lightsabers.

[Alexrd]

I say the OP. At least he doesn't seem to be a Mary Sue.

[Negative Sun]

In response to the first post, when a developer makes a video game based on an existing franchise, staying true to the original material and trying to get every single detail spot on to please fanboys is the most important thing to them I'm sure, not make a product that will be commercially viable and will actually sell copies, that always takes the back seat.

[Sith Holocron]

Why are we comparing comic books to video games, anyway? That's like comparing the Wii plastic lightsabers to sex.

 

Or a fish to a bicycle?

[Darth Avlectus]

Ok, something oddly resonates with that one episode of "drawn together".

[Boba Rhett]

For some of us, plastic lightsabers are sex.

[Jae Onasi]

For some of us, plastic lightsabers are sex.

 

You seriously need a new job, my good man. That one you're at is making you a little loopy if you're confusing your bride with a plastic lightsaber.

[Darth Avlectus]

For some of us, plastic lightsabers are sex.

 

You seriously need a new job, my good man. That one you're at is making you a little loopy if you're confusing your bride with a plastic lightsaber.

 

The implications of the type of aforementioned sexual activity, I find to be most disturbing.

[Sith Holocron]

The implications of the type of aforementioned sexual activity, I find to be most disturbing.

 

The day I confuse those two things, my wife will smash my KOTOR and TSL discs. LOL

[purifier]

The implications of the type of aforementioned sexual activity, I find to be most disturbing.

 

Well there's nothing wrong with that it's just different strokes for different folks that's all he's (Rhett) really saying.

 

Hell..every man has gotta have a hobby, you know.