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Return characters in the style of curse. Think it's probably important to point out that this is in no way a criticism of the return style (which I love) but just a goofy experiment.

I think I'd always assumed 5. This shot is from a project I was working on years back using the GZDoom engine (not Autobiographical Architecture, another one) and never managed to finish. Several different game spaces "quoted" in it and strung together in a dreamlike way. I should finish it someday!

Isn't the fact that they've brought back Neil Ross kind of a reference to MI3? Wally really only had a cameo in that game anyway... In terms of time travel and multiple versions of Guybrush, etc, I am very much hoping the game doesn't self-referentially frame the other games as a kind of multiverse, or spend a lot of time revisiting the earlier games. I expect the game won't all take place in the same chronological time frame (if it is indeed starting where MI2 left off, and then jumping years ahead at some point), but I realllly don't want it to be about time travel. It's already going to be a nostalgia trip, for better or for worse. The narrative of Monkey Island 2, in a lot of ways, was about the impossibility of reliving past glories - Guybrush is searching for a treasure that just seems arbitrarily bigger than his last adventure, but no one's particularly impressed by him anymore, his spark with Elaine is gone, etc. This kind of cuts against the actual experience of the game, which actually is bigger and more technologically advanced than Monkey Island 1, which gives it a nice frisson. I think if the Monkey 2 really just rehashed Monkey 1 (ie you start on Melee Island and have to complete a second set of trials), it would have felt like a cynical cash-grab. Instead, we get Guybrush and the other characters call the adventure as a kind of cynical rehash, while the game itself does all kinds of new and interesting things, and it all feels kind of exciting. I think this trick of lampshading the desperation of sequels gets harder the longer the gap is between sequels for a whole bunch of reasons. The theme of longing for an idealised, simpler past is kind of funny in Monkey Island 2 because it's been like two years between the games. There hadn't really been time to get nostalgic about the first game yet, and here they were making a sequel that was chiding itself for being too nostalgic. For Return, that subtext is unavoidable. I played Monkey Island 1 when I was in fourth grade, and Monkey Island 2 when I was in fifth or sixth grade, and I think it affected me because they both felt slightly too 'grown up' to me at the time. Now I feel like Monkey Island 1 is kind of superficially about growing up, in that Guybrush wants to be a pirate, and doing that means meeting other people's weird expectations for what a pirate does, and learning how to navigate the rules of the pirate world. In Monkey Island 2 is more about the struggle to become mature -- Guybrush has already become a pirate, and no one cares. So he decides to become a better pirate -- but how? Compared to Monkey Island 1, a lot of the puzzles are about tricking people and bending the rules. Instead of insult sword-fighting, which you learn through repetition, you have the spitting contest, where you have to cheat in about four different ways at the same time. Monkey Island 2 tries really hard not to repeat itself, and in fact seems to be trying to caution the players from living in the past. The moment at the end where you are able to inexplicably revisit the alleyway on Melee Island felt so evocative and creepy to me, I think because it wasn't just a throw-back Easter Egg, but because it ties into that theme of the impossibility of going backward. I remember feeling desperately like I wanted to go back and explore the town again and find something that would help me defeat LeChuck, and so frustrated that there was no way to do that. You had to go back into the tunnels and face him -- Monkey 2 style. In that sense, I suppose the weird ending of Monkey 2 makes sense on a thematic level - if the game is about the futility of trying to recover the glory of past adventures, what's more appropriate than being shown the horror of what that means when taken to the extreme? Instead of maturing, learning and triumphing over the past, you end up regressed, infantalised, and trapped in the past. (This is a digression, but: in narrative terms, I don't think that ending fires on all cylinders because elements of it feel arbitrary - it's like, are we now supposed to care about Guybrush's childhood, or who his parents are? I don't think those things are important to the character, and I will be surprised if Return dwells on those things in any substantial way. It's also an ending that doesn't feel connected to anything the player does. On a conceptual, dream-like level I think it DOES work, but as the ending to an adventure game, which is narratively driven by the actions of the player-character, it doesn't feel totally earned. You defeat LeChuck and then just kind of watch as weird things start happening.) All of this is to say that I fully expect Return to deal with the past *as a concept*, but I'm hoping the story looks more to the future, and asks questions about how we can live and grow regardless of whatever past failures or triumphs we may have had...

@Marius' wonderful thread on the MI1 alley has brought me back to a topic I wanted to post about some time ago... We only see most of the islands during day or night. Actually, only "Tales" is the exception with Flotsam Island in chapters 1, 4 and 5 (and maybe the EGA sunrise in MI1). Now, I'm sure we've all wondered what one or another place looks like at a different time of day - and luckily there's a source or two to give us a little idea here: MI1 - Parts of Mêlée Island during the day (Fanart videos, apparently even playable) MI2 - Booty Island at night (Official Concept Art) CMI - Plunder Island at night (Fanart) CMI - Blood Island during the day (Fanart) Maybe there are even more of such wonderful "what ifs" out there? If so, why not post them here, too? 🙂 I find it totally exciting to see these places in a different light and mood, as it directly changes the whole scenery. Plus, it leads to certain mind games, such as: Where do the pirates go when they're not in the SCUMM Bar? What does the Voodoo Lady do when her store is closed? Does Carla also spin back and forth in front of her cabin during the day? What does Stan do in his spare time? (Same questions for all the other games of course!) Sure, there are no concrete answers to any of this (so far), but it's fun to think about. Let's see what happens!

I still think Weird Al's version fits best.

So what if Ron never really had a very concrete vision for Monkey Island 3... so what if there is no "real" Secret of Monkey Island... I'll tell you why I am so excited for a final *Ron Gilbert* Monkey Island game... I desperately want to get to the bottom of what is the real relationship between Guybrush and LeChuck. There are so many clues hidden in MI2: LeChuck's Revenge - the feather in the Booty Island shop, the dream sequence, the library book about the Junior Ultra Soldier Commando Assault Vehicle... and yet for all these decades we've never had a clear answer. I put a video together about it: I can't wait to play the new game... and I desperately hope we'll finally get some insight!

Something something this was intricate symbolism done on purpose to convey that Bob is on the wrong side, that he is naturally a friendly pirate who has no business being LeChuck's right hand man... or should we say, no business being LeChuck's RIGHT LEG man? He poses and stands as if he has nothing LEFT of himself, as if it were gone, but in actuality it is his side RIGHT BY LeChuck that is false though it pretends to be real. In actuality, it is the part of Bob's soul that is LEFT that is true and has been all along. Through most of MI1, Bob is the wrong way round. Now he is upside down. Heh heh heh, I am not laughing out of joy. Inside a dream, inside a dream, inside a dream. (recites more Manny poetry lines) The End.

Bob's pegleg changed sides when they decided to move the alley.

Ok I finally have time to respond. I can't put into words how amazing it is that you made this beautiful map @Vainamoinen. I love maps! My brain always tries to draw one mentally, and Mêlée Town specifically feels so real to me. This tiny move to the left Guybrush does while approaching High Street now has more context. I can see him going down that route you drew, followed by him climbing some stairs. Also, wild: I never felt that the town is built on a hill that you are climbing. But it's so obvious: Where is the water next to the mansion? I never really questioned it. Anyway, just some random thoughts that your map gives me. Amazing artwork! (Also: "Gefischtwarenladen" 😄) Duke Nukem voice: "Ooooh! A circus. I love a circus!" This looks so good. Back then I made a ton of levels in the Build engine. I love the restrictions of those old engines, they have this unique aesthetic.

Like I saw someone say once, I actually don't think for the most part plot matters substantially. You can convey the most fantastic plot in a terrible way, and likewise you can enliven the blandest plot with character work and world building, and just telling it well. Even the plot points I really disliked in, say, EMI (HT Marley, Ozzie Mandrill's whole... deal, etc) I feel like the game COULD have sold me on, the problem to me is less that those were the plot points and more that I don't think it did enough to bring me along for the ride (okay, I admit it would have had a hard time selling me on HT Marley but I still think it could have) We already know that the core of ReMI is going to be a piratey adventure game. If they want to put some time travelly or multiversey implications around the edges of that, I'm totally down for that, all they've got to do is sell it to me. And I don't think it should be too hard to do so because IMO what's in the first two games has already set me up for something being oddly out of place/time in the setting. In any case, I'm trying not to think too much along the lines of 'I hope the plot doesn't do this or that' because then when it does I'm going to be prejudiced against it, rather than just trying to take the story for what it is.

This is a beautiful drawing and quite similar to how I've envisioned it. That being said, I always thought the cliffs beneath the governor's mansion were above (or near the ocean), not with more town below. That's something I definitely agreed with when they recreated the mansion in EMI. Also, I guess I would have rotated high town by 90 degrees clockwise rather than having it come back towards the clock. Anyways, great job - if I had any artistic talent I'd try recreating it myself.

Melee during the day makes me think of Kings Quest for some reason... and not in a good way.

Just throwing my hat into the ring of this discussion, because I agree that modern media is infantilising... but not because they have a Hollywood Ending (where everything is tied up neatly in a bow -- although that IS part of it), but because the SOLUTIONS they present to problems are overly simple. That is all.

Nothing very exciting, I'm afraid.

Thank you! I might reevaluate the map after playing ReMI ... and draw a new one. Next time, with a bit more pizzaz. 🍕 And here I thought "Duck Island" would get you first. 😛 Thank you so much! I love maps so much, every time they show Wally as a gullible punching bag I'm like BUT HE DRAWS MAPS HE'S LIKE A SUPERHERO YOU DORKS. I hope Return can set the record straight and have him save Elaine and Guybrush from a burning building. Or maybe there's actually time travel involved, he goes back in time, the cannibals chop off his head and use him as a navigato ... oooookay, let's not go there. I always interpreted Mêlée Town as a tiny village at the edge of a vast island wilderness, just a starting port for budding pirates. Maybe I just wanted to feel like TSoMI gave us the full picture. My map mostly tries to link what we've already experienced as backgrounds with Secret's title screen. The title screen shows a certain elevation of the glowing lights already, but it's the clocktower background that really gave me a sense of 'going up': The archway to the right shows houses placed significantly lower. And left to the actual clock tower there's a building that could either be five or six stories high ... or it's simply placed much higher than Hand-at-ten Avenue. Add to that that coastal towns usually take care not to be accidentally washed away (Florida being the exception to the rule) and Bob's your ghost uncle.

There still is! https://stansellseverything.ytmnd.com/

Fair argument, and as I said above, I might have made a case for that for the same reason, but given the up down walk cycles exist I guess they are probably used somewhere (back in the day they often would have been cut for space if not needed I thiiink?), and they're the only way round where it's unambiguously on the right leg, I'm going to have to give it to the right leg still. The shocking truth that has been revealed to us here is that most of the time, Bob is the wrong way round Well, to me at least that's a far more fun thing to learn, after 30 years.

welll.. actually here's the sprite sheet. It's on the right leg. Except that they only drew one side-walk cycle, so when he's facing left like on the picture you chose, it's flipped.

Oh, the Sea Monkey! I understand now. I thought there was some weird conspiratorial fanon about Guybrush causing the Mad Monkey to sink, and that's how its last known coordinates were known and recorded, and that's why Guybrush knew it had been recorded in a library book... bwa ha. Confirmation that Bob was root beer zapped (either by Guybrush or someone else) and has lived in the Land of the Forgotten for so long that his spiritual form is beginning to break down and manifest inconsistently. If he can't remember which leg was a peg, then his reality of existence can't remember either.

It was definitely very much written with the deathly subject matter in mind, but I think it also works well as a recurring theme. It feels sacrilegious but I think the EMI version would probably work best because of the ocean ambience they mixed in:

These prices are to DIE for.

I don't have any DOSBox savegames near that spot, but if I understand it correctly the game has a helper script that implements three different operations: Remap all palette colors to the same color. Remap one palette color to another. Reset all palette color mappings. The flash is implemented as a series of "remap all colors" plus "remap color 0 (presumably black) to another". This looks fine at the voodoo lady's place, where large parts of the image is black and there is a symmetrical black border around the scene. But here only a few small bits are black, so it looks weird. In the CD version it calls the helper script with the same parameters, but the "remap all palette colors" operation is implemented as some kind of hard-coded "brighten/darken palette" thing, and the "remap one color" operation is ignored. So it's almost certainly not a ScummVM bug. From what I've seen on YouTube, the EGA version looked fine here, so I'd say it was a regression in the VGA floppy version that was fixed again in the CD version.

Would be a little something like this.

Well, maybe we can accept the fact that the alleyway was behind the shop in MI1/MI2 and then it moved behind the church in RtMI, canonforced by the mighty writing powers of the authors. That also implies that MI1 and MI2 have been retroactively decanonized, of course.

It's going to take a lot for my brain to adjust to the idea it's behind the church. It never even occured to me to think it might not be #1

[making_up_things] Right, they had to resolve that detail for RtMI, because the elevator door will be used again by little Guybrush to return to Melee. [/making_up_things]

Wow too bad Ron and Dave are wrong about their game. ReMI already down to 99/100 and it’s not even out.

Can I just say how much I love this site and Marius specifically

We've got official confirmation! (Apologies I shared your drawings on Twitter @Marius - I hope you don't mind!) If that wasn't enough, Ron chimed in with a canonical answer and a possible spoiler...!

The face of everyone who has read through this thread.

The connectivity between places is something that fascinates me, and I constantly draw maps in my brain when I walk through them. My head has a clear idea where the Mêlée Town alley is after passing the store (Drawing 2). But what about you? The E stands for the elevator Guybrush comes out of at the end of LeChuck's Revenge. The little street cone marks the position of the "under construction"-barrier in the same room. Some drawings quite don't make sense, especially number 3 and 4 where the elevator is inside the church. However, since the interior and exterior of the Mêlée Town store contradict themselves heavily, I think it's ok to put those options in. I'm mostly interested what your brain tells you when you enter the alley and the screen changes. Doesn't have to make logical sense. Maybe you have multiple maps in your mind?! And if you have a completely different idea of the placement, please share it!

These are great! I experienced myself how easily the pencil glides when drawing on the designs of Rex' team. These characters suggest so much detail, you just know how they look in any style.

It is funny that the inconsistency happens when Bob faces left, and he happens to be facing left the vast majority of his appearances.

I quite like Silverwolfpet's version: Stan's New Store. if you know, you know

No it hasn't? Edit: Still no, but it's the most confusing animation, sometimes it's always on the side facing the player, but when he walks it's clear.

*cough* Red Dead Redemption 2 *cough* But overall, yeah… you’re right! 🤔

Yeah, it's funny that Curse shares the death theme with his life insurance venture. But after that, not so much. EDIT: Actually? I guess in Tales, Stan exists as a symbol of the forces trying to kill you. So Secret and Escape are the oddballs. (Unless of course the secret of Monkey Island is death, in which case Stan sells you passage to it.) Stan in Grim Fandango universe when? "Mr. Threepwood! Well, son, I'm ready to take you now!"

👕 I beat #Mojole #148 and all I got was this stupid t-shirt. 4/6 🖤🖤🖤💛🖤 💛💛🖤💛💚 🖤💚💚🖤💚 💚💚💚💚💚 https://funzone.mixnmojo.com/Mojole/

Ok, so I wasn't too far off, at least I asked my girlfriend earlier today what she thought and she said that she always thought the alley was behind the church, and when I come to post about it I find this and find out that (of course) she's right

Not particular sure why I bothered doing this but I was curious how well they matched up after looking at the cover art earlier. I thought it mildly striking that they line up so well, particularly the eyes. It supports my belief that the EGA close-ups were based on the Purcell style seen on the cover and (to a lesser extent) illustrations such as the ‘dress a pirate’ and code wheel. 😅

In what galaxy is THIS a church? >:

30 years and now I have to rethink everything. >:

The fact that it was something they had to think about for MI6 is huge praise, Marius.

“Enjoy”… 👀 What I am totally missing in this discussion is the whole aspect of realism/cartoonism. 🤓 (Okay, I’m outta here…)

I think this is a ScummVM bug if you were using that. I spotted the same thing myself but when elTee ran it through DREAMM he didn’t get the same. 🤔

I love these responses. The logic in my mind's map also crumbles the more I think about it. But it never destroys the illusion. Even the contradiction of the shops exterior and interior doesn't do any harm. Both places are connected, and are not just seperately made background paintings. Thank you all for sharing!

This is some mind-bending stuff. I have always thought #4 and never even considered other possibilities. Looking at the two scenes more closely, the only way l can sort of make sense of it is by paying close attention to the store. Part of the building juts out and is supported by a diagonal beam, which we can also see in the alley: The only problem is that this puts the lift in the church, and the side of that building simply doesn’t line up with what we see on the street. It also makes it strange that Shinetop is able to lure Guybrush in and then get the drop on him by following him in. Of course LeChuck could do this, but it seems more likely this is just a second alley further back a la #5. However, unlike your #5 I’d expect the store to extend all the way back, hence we can see the jutting out and diagonal beam.

My instinct always said #3 (which makes no sense to me, now that I think of it…). I’d go with #4, with how I see the backgrounds.