Oblivion: ESRB hits again...

[Darth333]

Oblivion's rating has been changed to "M": http://pc.ign.com/articles/704/704726p1.html

 

I can't say I disagree with this change in the rating of the game. In fact I was a bit surprised that it got an initial T rating due to the dark nature of the story and some sidequests like the Dark Brotherhood in which cold blooded murder is encouraged. There's also the necromancy part per example. I think there are a lot adult themes in that game.

 

However, in order to render it's decision, the ESRB has taken into consideration "a locked skin allowing players to make their on-screen female heroes topless. A third-party modification unlocks the skin in the PC version." The other reason that made them change their mind was the "more detailed depictions of blood and gore than were considered in the original rating." (Note that I haven't seen the ESRB original decision - from experience, what appears in the news often tends to include only the few sentences that catch attention).

 

What really surprises me here is that it seems to be only the "graphical depiction of blood" and the topless female mod that made them change their minds. I'll never understand why cold blooded murder is fine as long as there is not too much blood and no boobs and why boobs are just wrong. (cold blooded murder sounds worse than the two others IMHO. As for the topless female skin, these ESBR guys should go to a beach in France...I'm really tired of this ridiculous puritanism).

 

Oh well we've heard all that before...but one of the things that really bothers me is Bethesda's answer:

There is no nude female character in a section of the game that can be "unlocked." Bethesda can not control tampering with Oblivion by third parties. Bethesda is taking steps to ensure that modders can not continue to hack into Oblivion's art archives to create partially nude figures."

 

If the ESRB starts looking not just at the game content but at what 3rd parties can/cannot do with a game, and hold the devs accountable for this, I am afraid that the devs (not only Bethesda but generally speaking) will start to hardcode even more elements. Right now it is technically possible to make nude skins for almost every game...

 

It doesn't sound good for modders, nor it does for PC gaming...

 

 

What do you think?

[stingerhs]

i think the whole point was that there was topless skins for female characters left inside the game's data files. so, given that Oblivion is such an easy game to mod certainly didn't help the situation since those data files are hackable using the existing TES Construction Set, which is provided by Bethseda.

 

IMHO, the ESRB is well within the bounds to do what they did, and i applaud them for it since it keeps Congress from restarting the whole 'games are killing our kids' debate. in this case, i do think that Bethseda is at fault. if a developer can't go through the game files to verify that some questionable content hasn't been omitted from the final product, then they deserve what's coming.

 

if this ordeal had been the result of a mod that didn't unlock content that already existed in the game's data files, then i would be quite pissed off since it would put a damper on the modding potential of all future PC games. however, this isn't such a case, so i don't think its anything to be concerned with.

[Jae Onasi]

I'm guessing they _may_ have concerns about legal issues with young kids getting exposed to 'porn' mods, even if they don't make it or accept it. Welcome to lawsuit happy America, where everyone remotely associated with a product is sued, whether or not they were directly involved or even responsible. As long as someone has deep pockets, they're fair game. /sarcasm]

Or they may have made a philosophical decision to have everyone keep their clothes on.

 

We don't grow up seeing half naked women on beaches like in France, so we're not used to it. So, we're a little more hung up on boobs than other places are. It's part of the culture. Personally, I see nothing wrong with a little modesty. I prefer certain things to be left to my own imagination.

Yes, I think it's idiotic to not rate something M if the character's running around killing people. I'm not sure how someone decided that it's OK for a 13 year old to murder someone on screen. I don't plan to let my kids play violent killing games when they're in their teens.

Of course, I think it's just kind of dumb to have a character running around topless if they're going to be in battle. I prefer some protection from armor, thank you.

[ChAiNz.2da]

I'll just quote my post I used in the Swamp, but it pretty much sums up my opinion

 

---------------

 

Will this make the value of my software box go up? Mine says Rated "T" hehehe..

 

But yeah, this is ridiculous... unlike Hot Coffee where it's an entire "sex mini-game" that was *cough* 'forgotten' *cough*.. this modification is just a re-textured upperbody.nif (model) file used for humanoid beasts.. paint it flesh tone and yeah.. wheeeee boobies

 

I think TegSkywalker summed it up about the whole point that "real" nekkid-ness is available rather easily.. who give's a rat's ass about pixelated ones...

 

Besides, like any good perv, I've checked out the mod.. needless to say there's an unnatural "gloss" to the ermm... "extras" because of Oblivion's drawing engine...hehehe... unless they've been rolling around in olive oil.. well, I've seen better

 

I think I'd be more worried over my kid seeing the disembodied & half-mutilated corpses in the game that are VERY highly detailed moreso than something they're bound to see in their lifetime sooner or later...

 

Of course I have no kids, so I won't "play parent" on the subject.. but it just seems a bit absurd for anyone with common sense..

[stoffe]

Oblivion's rating has been changed to "M"

 

I can't say I disagree with this change in the rating of the game. In fact I was a bit surprised that it got an initial T rating due to the dark nature of the story and some sidequests like the Dark Brotherhood in which cold blooded murder is encouraged. There's also the necromancy part per example. I think there are a lot adult themes in that game.

 

However, in order to render it's decision, the ESRB has taken into consideration (snipped for brevity: harmless nudity, plenty of gore. Wanton murder and evil activities apparently OK)

 

What age does a "M" and "T" rating mean in North America? Over here Oblivion had a 16+ (Violence) PEGI rating, which seems about right concidering the blood, gore and dark themes present in the game (Though they should have included a Fear icon as well due to the spider daedra, but that's just the arachnophobe in me speaking. )

 

From a violence perspective it may be understandable, but I too have a hard time understanding how those people are thinking in regards to just showing some skin. I've not seen the mod in question, but it hardly seems like porn from that description. It's not like you won't see lots of people more lightly dressed than that just visiting a random beach during a hot summer's day. That should have no bearing on the rating of the game, really, unless they want to prevent women under a certain age from buying a mirror, or ban people under a certain age from going out during the summer for consistency.

 

Oh well we've heard all that before...but one of the things that really bothers me is Bethesda's answer:

 

If the ESRB starts looking not just at the game content but at what 3rd parties can/cannot do with a game, and hold the devs accountable for this, I am afraid that the devs (not only Bethesda but generally speaking) will start to hardcode even more elements.

 

Seems like it may be a good idea to hold off installing new patches for Oblivion in case they plan to lock down modding of the game. Fortunately they can't change the game I already have installed unless I let them.

 

Since pretty much any game that can be modded have nude skins and some mod that lets you do pretty despicable things all games would have to be rated "M" if potential 3rd party mods have to be a factor in rating games.

 

Since pretty much only one side is crying out loudly in (self)righteous indignation it's easy for developers to just cater to those who shout the loudest and create bad publicity and potentially lost sales for them. After all, the other side of that debate would buy the game either way.

 

Oh, and they should probably put an "Adult Only" rating on IE and Firefox as well, they can be used to view questionable content...

 

* * *

 

I think Bethesda are insane if they would prevent people from creating their own models and textures for the game. I would certainly boycott their "pay to download" addons if they did this. Some of the stuff that was made for Morrowind is very impressive, and I know for sure that I would not have bought the game, nor its expansion packs, at all if a few of those mods, the Better Bodies and Better heads mods had not been made. The original models were terrible, and ruined the game experience for me when I originally looked at the game when it was released.

 

At least the default character models in Oblivion aren't quite as bad as in Morrowind, though they look a tough too anorectic for my taste and they certainly aren't pretty. The textures are too low-res for the purpose as well, resulting in visible "dirt" in game. Nothing some baggy clothing and the face textures fix mod couldn't fix.

[Darth Manus]

I think the whole thing is ridiculous.

[Lantzen]

Evry day you see topless womens on tv, but if there is one in a game they change the rating. I think thats kind of weird, for in the most movies there is a topless scene.

 

And it's just wrong to increase the age limit because of mods, you dont find a nude mod if you not looking for one

[Jae Onasi]

Evry day you see topless womens on tv, but if there is one in a game they change the rating. I think thats kind of weird, for in the most movies there is a topless scene.

 

And it's just wrong to increase the age limit because of mods, you dont find a nude mod if you not looking for one

 

Movies with a topless scene where you see every part of the anatomy (not just glimpses of part of it) are rated R, at least in the US, and you can't go in if you're 17 or under without a parent (theoretically). Yes, you can see full nudity on cable, but you're paying for that channel and have the option of blocking anything you consider objectionable. You don't see topless or nudes on network TV, Jackson's famous 'wardrobe failure' notwithstanding.

 

As a parent, I would like to know about content that my kid could 'accidentally' unlock and arrange for it to stay locked or remove it, or just not buy the game at all. Some things he doesn't need to see at his age, even if it is just cartoon violence or cartoon nudity.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

What age does a "M" and "T" rating mean in North America? Over here Oblivion had a 16+ (Violence) PEGI rating, which seems about right concidering the blood, gore and dark themes present in the game (Though they should have included a Fear icon as well due to the spider daedra, but that's just the arachnophobe in me speaking. )

The "T" rating means 13+ and "M" rating means 17+.

[Astrotoy7]

lolz. M means 15+ here !

 

Ive just started playing Oblivion, and sure its fun, but I hardly see what all the hype is about. The way so many around here were carrying on about it I imagined unrivalled awesomeness. Lolz... pretty gfx only goes so far

 

Im looking forward to completing it, but NWN is *still* the greatest RPG in the universe [/bioWare Groupie]

 

mtfbwya

[Hallucination]

As a parent, I would like to know about content that my kid could 'accidentally' unlock and arrange for it to stay locked or remove it, or just not buy the game at all. Some things he doesn't need to see at his age, even if it is just cartoon violence or cartoon nudity.

Which is what any responsible parent would do, but is it necessary for the ESRB to raise the rating when no one pays attention to it? It seems to me that any 16-year-old who hasn't seen a breast won't be playing video games.

[Samnmax221]

That may be the only thing they're doing

[Emperor Devon]

I think the whole issue is absurd. Morrowind had some of the best mods I've ever seen in a game, and was the only thing that kept me playing it after several playthroughs. Oblivion is capable of having even better mods than Morrowind, since the game has been vastly improved, and then Bethesda wants to limit the amount of mods than can be made just to keep a few idiots who need a video game to satisfy their lust from making some topless female skins? This sounds like a mistake on Bethesda's part. People will probably be more willing to buy the game years from now if there is a large amount of mods available for it. In the mean time, I agree with stoffe and think I'll hold off from downloading any patches for Oblivion.

[~DarthGeek~]

That's the dumbest thing ever!!! ESRB: We're making this "M" because of the topless

girl you might find, not because of killing, or The Dark Brotherhood, or the dark setting, some helpless teen might find it and be scarred for life! Oh no! There were third party mods for Morrowind that made everyone nude, it's still "T". God, I HATE

them, the most ridiculous ratings on the planet, and some teen will be like: Ok! Time to buy Oblivion! This'll be fun! What it's "M"!?!? Then he'll grow up a cold-harded murderer. Bad move guys, very bad move...

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

That may be the only thing they're doing

Probably, but they're most likely so sheltered that they're playing Kingdom Hearts 2 or something.

[Samuel Dravis]

i think the whole point was that there was topless skins for female characters left inside the game's data files. so, given that Oblivion is such an easy game to mod certainly didn't help the situation since those data files are hackable using the existing TES Construction Set, which is provided by Bethseda.

 

IMHO, the ESRB is well within the bounds to do what they did, and i applaud them for it since it keeps Congress from restarting the whole 'games are killing our kids' debate. in this case, i do think that Bethseda is at fault. if a developer can't go through the game files to verify that some questionable content hasn't been omitted from the final product, then they deserve what's coming.

 

if this ordeal had been the result of a mod that didn't unlock content that already existed in the game's data files, then i would be quite pissed off since it would put a damper on the modding potential of all future PC games. however, this isn't such a case, so i don't think its anything to be concerned with.

The braless model is there only to avoid clipping issues with having the bra show through the clothes, and at no point in normal Oblivion play would you ever see a totally naked character. The model itself is just there so they didn't have to create an individual torso for every female character in the game. They just layer the clothes (or, if no clothes are worn, a bra) over the generic $race$ female body mesh. IMO, that is nothing to even consider when rating a game. It's not remotely 'questionable content'; it's just how the game works underneath. It's fully textured in the sense that it's covered with a texture so that when a bra model is used it looks correct. Tell me why they should avoid drawing the slight bit that is covered by the bra model when it surely changes along with body size? They drew it all so they didn't need to worry about parts of the model being untextured when the bra changes. May I remind you that there's no nipple? Quite simply, I think it's just rediculous puritanism, based on no reasonable explanation, that may indeed have an adverse impact on both my and other's ability to mod the game.

 

Oblivion does have some heavy violence in it for a teen game though. It definitely pushes the edge. However, the ESRB should have rated it M for that when it was rating it, not later. Changing the rating afterwards just makes people question whether the ESRB is actually doing anything. "What's the rating?" "It's Teen." "Oh, haha. You can't fool me. What's the REAL rating? You know, the one they're going to change it to in a couple of months?"

 

I venture to suggest that such behavior from the ESRB does not help keep the government out of ratings - in fact, I think it does the opposite.

[Jae Onasi]

Which is what any responsible parent would do, but is it necessary for the ESRB to raise the rating when no one pays attention to it? It seems to me that any 16-year-old who hasn't seen a breast won't be playing video games.

 

If it's M, at least theoretically an adult has to buy it, which means theoretically someone is at least looking at the box before it's getting purchased. There is a difference between seeing a breast in health class and seeing a breast in a sexually provocative scene. I highly doubt that the modded topless gals in the game are there for us to be educated on breast anatomy.

 

Edit--OK, I can live with Barbie-doll type topless if that's being used for a clothing base, though they could have put a strapless bra on or something if they didn't want the straps to show.

 

And I agree the M rating should have been more for violence than anything else.

[~DarthGeek~]

I'm guessing this also means I have to run out and get the Teen one now because they might block modding? If you could re-create the stuff that happens in Oblivion then it should be "M" but, if a kid goes up to his teacher and attempts to soul-trap them, then that kid just can't tell fake from reality then it's the kid's problem, not the game's.

[Samuel Dravis]

If it's M, at least theoretically an adult has to buy it, which means theoretically someone is at least looking at the box before it's getting purchased. There is a difference between seeing a breast in health class and seeing a breast in a sexually provocative scene. I highly doubt that the topless gals in the game are there for us to be educated on breast anatomy.

You're right. What would happen if you took your health class book and used it for, shall we say, purposes for which it was not designed? Would that action be the wrong, and NOT THE ORIGINAL PURPOSE? As it happens to be in this instance? The book is not the thing that is the problem. It's people's use of the book.

 

The mesh has a legitimate use in the engine. The appeal to the prurient interest by the mod does not. See the similarity?

[Jae Onasi]

You're right. What would happen if you took your health class book and used it for, shall we say, purposes for which it was not designed? Would that action be the wrong, and NOT THE ORIGINAL PURPOSE? As it happens to be in this instance? The book is not the thing that is the problem. It's people's use of the book.

 

The mesh has a legitimate use in the engine. The appeal to the prurient interest by the mod does not. See the similarity?

 

Yep, and editted above accordingly. I didn't see your post til after I'd already posted mine.

[~DarthGeek~]

This is a bit off topic but is there anyway to mod the Xbox Morrowind, I just got the game of the year edition, they took out the glitches and exploites and when I fight the gaurds they say stoopid, spelled just like that. I want to change that.

[Hallucination]

If it's M, at least theoretically an adult has to buy it, which means theoretically someone is at least looking at the box before it's getting purchased.

If a kid got I.D.'d trying to buy an M rated game I'd be quite surprised. I have a good set of M games, and no one ever asked me if I was old enough.

There is a difference between seeing a breast in health class and seeing a breast in a sexually provocative scene. I highly doubt that the modded topless gals in the game are there for us to be educated on breast anatomy.

The difference isn't going to stop nerds who can't get a date (and even if it did they could just use Google). But when the ESRB comes in it'll stop the people who don't need a handful of pixels to have fun and just want to get the Sword of Improved It Go Boom +6.

[RedHawke]

What do you think?

I think this all is a bunch of *Insert colorful metaphors here*!

 

I'm with you on being tired of the prudes here in the US.

 

Bethesda's response was also wrong, and makes me think twice before buying another of their products because they cave in to this kind of crap so easily. If they start to disallow modding that is a big mistake, and will only hurt themselves.

 

I would say more but a lot of what I wanted to say has been said.

[Prime]

For some reason, many Americans seem to be afraid of boobs.

[lukeiamyourdad]

For some reason, many Americans seem to be afraid of boobs.

 

That's because they're pissed that they've never seen real ones. Thus, their holy vengence is directed at modding since there's nothing else that's weak enough to attack.

 

This is something I find stupid. I've seen boobs before I got to 18. Hell, I've touched female breasts. And they're telling me that I can't see some pixels before 18? Hell, I'm pretty sure that NOT seeing breasts, even in games, will make you go crazy at some point and turn you into a cold-blooded murderer.

 

I agree with D333's point about violence vs nudity. Seeing a boob is worse then killing people. There's something inherently wrong in that idea. Saying that a simple harmless and totally natural thing is worse the violence is seriously lacking any kind of logic.