The Great Tribulation? Very Controversal and The Second Coming of Christ (merged)

[The Source]

I fixed what was written. I was thinking one way, but I didn't clearly write was in my mind. Fixed.

 

Mistakes happen.

[mimartin]

Anyone who can get 200,000ish people to gather into one place, and has done nothing to deserve such recognition, has to be approached with cautious skepticism (sp?).

 

As far as I'm concerned, only the devil can amass such large groups.

 

I knew NASCAR was pure evil.

 

Personally, I see no problem with someone that can inspire others towards action. I also fail to see how JFK and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. use of slogans was a problem. One inspired humanity to the moon and into the Peace Corps and the other helped to inspired America not to accept second-class citizenship for a segment of its citizens.

[The Source]

I knew NASCAR was pure evil.

 

Personally, I see no problem with someone that can inspire others towards action. I also fail to see how JFK and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. use of slogans was a problem. One inspired humanity to the moon and into the Peace Corps and the other helped to inspired America not to accept second-class citizenship for a segment of its citizens.

JFK and Martin Luther King did some great things. Keep in mind that Hitler and Jimmy Jones shared their philosophy of a 'Utopian Society', and they took it into the wrong direction. Hitler and Jones promised a world of peace, prosperity, and salvation. Each one sold the philosophy of change, hope, and Eden. After amassing thousands of followers, Hitler and Jones revealed their definition of such slogan and words. Its all about definition.

[Emperor Devon]

Anyone who can get 200,000ish people to gather into one place, and has done nothing to deserve such recognition, has to be approached with cautious skepticism (sp?).

 

But apparently those 200,000ish people think he deserves recognition, no?

 

JFK and Martin Luther King did some great things.

 

They're 'great' only insofar as (most) people have decided they are. How are we supposed to determine, in that case, which figures actually deserve the recognition they've gotten? By your own totally arbitrary standards?

 

(I'm also sure there's a fallacy that corresponds to this, though I can't remember the name. Achilles?)

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Source please?

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

 

 

 

Source please?

No sources, as it's my opinion. But I think you'd agree that time and bureacracy are human made concepts.

 

Source please?

Refer to the first quotation.

[Achilles]

(I'm also sure there's a fallacy that corresponds to this, though I can't remember the name. Achilles?)

I don't see The Source's posts so I don't have any context for the quote, but I'll take a stab in the dark and guess that you're either looking for appeal to authority or appeal to popularity.

 

<snip quote>

That doesn't answer the question. You've quoted a fictional character from a text that has undergone numerous revisions and translations and has been subject to forgery, creative editing, mistakes, etc over thousands of years. I was hoping for something more definitive.

 

No sources, as it's my opinion.

Oh, ok.

 

But I think you'd agree that time and bureacracy are human made concepts.

I'm not sure what time has to do with your earlier point, but no I would not agree that time is a human concept. Burearcracy may be, however that doesn't help with your definitive statement that god is not one. However since you've clarified that you were sharing your opinion and nothing more, there's no reason to pursue the issue. Thanks for your assistance with that.

 

Refer to the first quotation.

Please refer to my rebuttal of your first quotation.

[Rabish Bini]

Roman Catholics pretty much think that Obama is the antichrist?

 

Sorry, no.

You know that's not what I meant.

 

Your opinion that all sects of Christianity are the same.

You know that's not what I said also.

 

Just because some Christians believe that Obama is the Antichrist doesn't mean all do, that's pretty silly to believe.

 

And not once did I say all sects of Christianity are the same, I said they have minor differences. Catholocism and Christianity all believe in the one God, and I'm pretty sure all believe in Jesus Christ, as it is called Christianity. The differences are numerous, such as certain dates and the like, but the main principle holds true, if you really want to learn all the differences, there is this nifty thing nowadays, circulating around the net known as Google

[Darth InSidious]

I can't speak for Ender, Rabish, but I for one am thoroughly bamboozled as to what you meant. So far, your statements have been, at best, perfunctory and vague.

[EnderWiggin]

I can't speak for Ender, Rabish, but I for one am thoroughly bamboozled as to what you meant. So far, your statements have been, at best, perfunctory and vague.

 

Yes. Yes you can

 

_EW_

[tk102]

@Rabish Bini: Some of your posts have generated more confusion than meaningful discussion (eg. link,link). Please try to keep future posts unambiguous and on topic. Thanks for your attention to this.

[Achilles]

The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the proper counter argument is that Obama is Jesus

 

Many people believed that the rapture would occur in 1988 (1988 being forty years, or "one generation" in some interpretations, after the return of "god's chosen" to Israel).

 

In 1988, George H.W. Bush became President of the U.S.

 

In 2000 (the year that many people considered to be the beginning of the new millennium) George W. Bush became President of the U.S.

 

He had been in office for 7 years when Barack Obama announced his candidacy.

 

Jesus was supposed to return after 7 years of "hell on earth" following the rapture.

 

Therefore, the rapture happened in 2000 though no one knew about it because only Jim Varney was qualified to go. The 7 years of Bush the Younger's presidency signify the bad parts and Obama himself is Christ returned.

 

Sure, it's full of holes and doesn't make much sense, but neither did the argument we started with. If nothing else, perhaps Arcesious can use it to frustrate some of his church friends. Glad I could help.

[jonathan7]

Many people believed that the rapture would occur in 1988 (1988 being forty years, or "one generation" in some interpretations, after the return of "god's chosen" to Israel).

 

In 1988, George H.W. Bush became President of the U.S.

 

In 2000 (the year that many people considered to be the beginning of the new millennium) George W. Bush became President of the U.S.

 

My own favourite Millennium-doomsdayist; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Roa

 

Earning £20,000 a week; one of the best goalkeepers on the planet at the time - lets retire as the world is going to end...

[Rabish Bini]

Ender said that I think all sects of Christianity is the same, yet not once did I state that.

 

And he said that Roman Catholics believe Obama is the Antichrist, not once did I say that either.

 

I don't know where he got those thoughts from, but I know for sure I never stated either of those.

Sorry if my posts have confused you, I will try to clarify more in the future.

[vanir]

I wanted to get some thoughts on this.

 

Now, I've always said belief is irrelevent. Trust me, it is (faith however, is very relevent).

So let's suspend disbelief. For the sake of argument let's say it's real and it's going to happen and get to the point.

 

What exactly are you expecting?

 

What do you think will happen?

 

Just curious

[Tommycat]

Assuming Jesus is real, I would expect him to do a massive facepalm. With all of the corruptions of his teachings, and the number of people that just don't believe at all I would think he would just shake his head at all the wierdness we have.

 

However, supposedly before his return we are to expect all the true believers to completely dissappear(taken to heaven). Naturally people like Achilles would be happy to see all those thiests gone from the world. Admittedly I might be happy as well... depending on which version of Christianity is right....

[jrrtoken]

Assuming Jesus is real, I would expect him to do a massive facepalm. With all of the corruptions of his teachings, and the number of people that just don't believe at all I would think he would just shake his head at all the wierdness we have.

QFT

 

Let's just say that anything brought up by fundamentalists, especially the Left Behind series, is a load of rhetorical crap. The notion that only real Christians would be saved and anyone else form other religions would be damned to Hell is rather prejudiced. Personally, I'd like all of the fundamentalists to spirited away, who knows where, I prefer them to be somewhere south of heaven, but hey, according to them, most of us will be in Hell anyways.

 

My thoughts? There probably won't be any sort of apocalyptic thing. I believe that Revelation was a metaphor for events that had already happened during the time of the Romans, i.e., Peterism.

[jonathan7]

The notion that only real Christians would be saved and anyone else form other religions would be damned to Hell is rather prejudiced.

 

Hmmm, what is a Christian? Which isn't perhaps the easiest question to answer. I think perhaps we need to decide that before anything else.

 

Certainly a creed accepted by all the 'usual' denominations (Catholic, Protestant etc) is this;

 

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

 

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made.

 

For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

 

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

 

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

 

I dunno, the more pertinent question perhaps is what did Jesus have to say on the matter;

 

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

Of course we also have;

 

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

So, I think we cannot ultimately judge where people will end up, indeed I think there will be a lot of shocks as to who is, and isn't in heaven. However, you may wish to consider the following;

 

I think all the great religions of the world-Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam and Communism-both untrue and harmful. It is evident as a matter of logic that, since they disagree, not more than one of them can be true.

 

Or to put it differently;

 

‘To say “All roads lead to God” is as illogical as saying that a bus ride to the shops is much the same as taking a trip to the moon on a space shuttle. The route, mode of transport and destination are all completely different!’

 

(as this is a big problem, with thinking all religions lead to God)

 

Under an Islamic conception of God, I'm certainly not going to Paradise, I'm going to hell, because I believe the blasphemy that God came down in human form.

 

Thoughts?

[EnderWiggin]

90 posts, on the next page of this forum :

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=190750

 

Merged again -- j7

 

_EW_

[jrrtoken]

Hmmm, what is a Christian? Which isn't perhaps the easiest question to answer. I think perhaps we need to decide that before anything else.

Broadly, anyone who believes that Jesus=God.

 

(as this is a big problem, with thinking all religions lead to God)

Not really. Every religion, at its core, all share similar values, i.e., don't murder, don't steal, etc. Yet, each also have several differences, however, are they really more important than basic tenants, such as not to kill? Are these matters, such as the belief of a god, really matter when compared to actions.

 

In example form, let's compare a philanthropist and a clergyman. This philanthropist gave away much of his wealth to the poor and the needy, and with that money, he porobably saved thousands from starvation and death. However, he was an atheist. The clergyman, on the other hand, spent his life warning people of selfishness and damnation, however, he himself rarely, if ever gave helped others through charity, yet he believed in God. So, the question is, who would be seen higher in the eyes of God: the generous atheist, or the hypocritical theist?

 

Under an Islamic conception of God, I'm certainly not going to Paradise, I'm going to hell, because I believe the blasphemy that God came down in human form.

And in extreme Christianity, vice-versa.

[Rev7]

Let's just say that anything brought up by fundamentalists, especially the Left Behind series, is a load of rhetorical crap. The notion that only real Christians would be saved and anyone else form other religions would be damned to Hell is rather prejudiced

QFE

 

I tried reading one of the books in that series, but stopped after reading several pages. I do not believe that there will be a rapture of any sorts. IMO, that when/were many Christians will fall because there was no rapture. I am rather pessimistic on the rapture theory--I am either right, or pleasantly surprised.

 

So, the question is, who would be seen higher in the eyes of God: the generous atheist, or the hypocritical theist?

None of them are. All are equal in the eyes of God.

17For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward

[GarfieldJL]

The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the proper counter argument is that Obama is Jesus

 

Many people believed that the rapture would occur in 1988 (1988 being forty years, or "one generation" in some interpretations, after the return of "god's chosen" to Israel).

 

In 1988, George H.W. Bush became President of the U.S.

 

In 2000 (the year that many people considered to be the beginning of the new millennium) George W. Bush became President of the U.S.

 

He had been in office for 7 years when Barack Obama announced his candidacy.

 

Jesus was supposed to return after 7 years of "hell on earth" following the rapture.

 

Therefore, the rapture happened in 2000 though no one knew about it because only Jim Varney was qualified to go. The 7 years of Bush the Younger's presidency signify the bad parts and Obama himself is Christ returned.

 

Sure, it's full of holes and doesn't make much sense, but neither did the argument we started with. If nothing else, perhaps Arcesious can use it to frustrate some of his church friends. Glad I could help.

 

I'm going to say it makes some sense but you've got the players wrong in the scenario you're speaking of. Obama would actually signify the bad parts as you said. I'm not saying he is the being of great evil, just his charisma and the blind devotion he gets from followers like he does fits a great deal more closely than President Bush.

 

Bush doesn't fit the stuff about the bad ones, because he wasn't out to take over the world. If you looked at the bible the being of great evil is extremely charismatic, something President Bush is not.

 

However, I'm hoping the world doesn't end in 2012, I'm also hoping the United States still exists as a Constitutional Republic in 2012.

[vanir]

I've been hearing a lot lately from many of the people I know in real life that they think the Great Tribulation, (prophecied in the Bible) is going to happen soon. All of the people I go to church with think Obama might be the Antichrist... This is a really delecate thing to discuss with them. I tend to say 'It's pure speculation' when trying to disprove it... The world is in a pretty big mess, but these kinds of ideas are rather... Disturbing. I've heard them all my life of course, so I pretty much know all about how this prophecy works. I thought this would be interesting to disucuss. We've been talking about aliens and UFOs already, and this particular prophecy is peaking my interest due to the amount of people who beleive it. The whole 666, rapture, antichrist, new world order, tribulation, etc, etc thing is a rather controversal, delicate thing to talk about with the religious.

 

Your thoughts on this? I don't know a lot of the smaller details on this, and I though it would be interesting to discuss.

 

No. J7 is the antichrist...

 

Just kidding. Best candidate for the antichrist is Hitler, plain and simple. That would place the rapture about now, sometime around this generation. I think. Religiously speaking. Luckily I'm not religious

[mimartin]

Now Obama is the anti-Christ.

 

You’re always good for a laugh. I hope, for your sake, you really don’t believe this stuff and it is all a ploy to get a rise out of the other members.

[Yar-El]

I wanted to get some thoughts on this.

 

Now, I've always said belief is irrelevent. Trust me, it is (faith however, is very relevent).

So let's suspend disbelief. For the sake of argument let's say it's real and it's going to happen and get to the point.

 

What exactly are you expecting?

 

What do you think will happen?

 

Just curious

Sticking to the bible as the key reference.

 

(1) Satan will create a false peace in the Middle East.

(2) Fundamental believers and nonbelievers of Christ will worship the fake Christ.

(3) Everything will slowly come to a hault, and then hell will break loose after a assassination attempt on Satan.

(4) Two witnesses will arrive.

(5) End of act I.

 

Examination -

(1/2) What will Satan look like? Human leader with blind followers. Could be a religious leader, president, prime minister, etc... Someone with a strong pull on people who are looking for salvation or healing. Followers will believe *he or she is the savior; thus, they will worship *him or her without question.

(3) Satan's ability to amass large amounts of individuals will make him a target. Some unknown person of faith will see through *his or her deception; therefore, he or she will attempt to kill in the name of God. Satan will recover from a wound to the head.

(4) Two witnesses? They will be prophets or observers. Enoch is rumored to be one of them; therefore, one might be an immortal.

 

*There is a biblical passage of importance; however, I'm not at liberty to point out a flaw in Satan's plan.

[EnderWiggin]

I'm going to say it makes some sense but you've got the players wrong in the scenario you're speaking of. Obama would actually signify the bad parts as you said. I'm not saying he is the being of great evil, just his charisma and the blind devotion he gets from followers like he does fits a great deal more closely than President Bush.

 

Bush doesn't fit the stuff about the bad ones, because he wasn't out to take over the world. If you looked at the bible the being of great evil is extremely charismatic, something President Bush is not.

*facepalm*

 

Do you even know what satire is?

 

_EW_