Proposition 8: Good or Bad?

[Rogue Nine]

Three lawsuits filed against Prop 8

 

Good to know that they'll be taking it back to the courts and away from the people to decide what rights homosexuals should have. This proposition was a disgusting abuse of democracy.

[Arcesious]

  EW said:

Wow, even though you agree with us, you still feel like arguing bible meanings with us.

 

I'll repeat:

I'm quite aware of what the context was of what I wrote, and I didn't misinterpret it. Interesting that you could make a normative claim on my understanding, though.

 

I'm a Christian - and a better one than you, to be honest. Not really an insult, just an understanding that God isn't fond of atheists.

 

As for what I comprehend about the bible, the verses I wrote were to make a point. The fact that you went ahead and insulted me for no apparent reason, and called me ignorant even though you actually have no real clue as to what I know about Bible verses is kind of disappointing. And then, to top it off by insinuating that you do understand the native greek and hebrew is so arrogant that I wish they had a stronger word for it.

 

I concede then, you are correct, I am incorrect.

[zelda 41]

  Rogue Nine said:

Three lawsuits filed against Prop 8

 

Good to know that they'll be taking it back to the courts and away from the people to decide what rights homosexuals should have. This proposition was a disgusting abuse of democracy.

 

 

Very nice

 

I must say, I was extremely disappointed when I got to school today and everyone was cheering about Prop 8. Even my teachers, the people who have told me my whole life that it is wrong to hate or discriminate, were happy with the passing. I was a tad put off by this.

 

I honestly can't understand why we find it morally acceptable to hate someone for being homosexual, lesbian, or anything in between, yet we find it unacceptable to hate a person of different ethnicity or anything else of that matter. I see hardly a difference between two, in my opinion.

[JediMaster12]

I agree zelda that there is no difference between ethnicity or sexual orientation as far as discrimination goes. I admit I can be a coward when it comes to discussing politics of a sensitive nature with my family but I made a promise to myself and I kept it. This election I voted no on Prop 8.

 

I believe jonathan said it best in his siggie bout love from Corinthians. However there are the two greatest rules within the Bible that Jesus tells the people. The first was to love the Lord your God. The second was to love your neighbor as you love yourself. Then it goes on to say that those are the greatest of commandments or something like that. I take those to heart and try to live my life by them.

 

I have had time to think about homosexuality. I believe that everythign exists for a reason. If God says that homosexulaity is so bad then why does it exist. Believe it or not it did exist in biblical times. Sodom ring a bell? So if it exists there must be a reason for it. We may not know all the whys but it is there so why should it be treated differently than others?

 

I think part of the problem with the issue of Prop 8 is the fact that there were a lot of misnomers used to promote for it. That busines with education in schools, totally irrelevant since the proposition mentions nothing about it and California law guarantees parents have a right to hear what they want them to hear regarding sex ed etc. Frankly I am all for a re-open of prop 8 or shooting it down from a Constitutional standpoint.

[Corinthian]

Murder also exists. So does Rape, Pedophilia, and a host of other stuff. Stuff can't be okay just because it exists.

 

Also, Sodom got nuked.

[Astor]

I don't know the whole deal regarding this, but I have a question - is it going to hurt anyone by allowing homosexuals to 'marry/partner/bond'?

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

  Astor_Kaine said:

I don't know the whole deal regarding this

it amended the california constitution to define marriage as a union between one man and one woman.

[Jae Onasi]

Something True_Avery pointed out to me awhile back was that civil unions apparently don't have the same rights as marriage in CA. I thought they were pretty much the same. I think if they're going to amend the constitution to define marriage but also have civil unions, then I think civil unions should have the same rights as marriage.

[Corinthian]

Sounds fair enough to me.

[The Doctor]

  Rev7 said:

According to my religion, homosexuality is a sin, and I do not want people to sin, so I do not agree with homosexuality.

According to your religion, you also can't eat pork, cut your hair, shave your face, nor let a Jew walk past you without murdering him for not accepting Jesus as his Messiah. Much less an agnostic, or heaven forbid an atheist. I look forward to seeing you come to my door with a hatchet sometime this weekend.

 

  Rev7 said:

You put out there that the Bible says not to shave, kill anyone with a different religion, not wear clothes with more than one fabric. And the thing about pork. None of that is relevent to the topic.

It establishes the fact that you yourself are doing exactly what Corinthian accused EW of (which, ironically enough, he also appears to be guilty of): cherry-picking the bits of the Bible you agree with, and ignoring the bits that you don't want to face, such as, let's say, the rest of the book of Leviticus.

 

I'll grant you one point: I don't agree with homosexuality either. I don't understand how one man can fall in love with another man, nor a woman with another woman. I just simply don't get it, and I seriously doubt I ever really will. However, I also don't get how people can eat brocolli, or find Jerry Sinfeld even remotely funny. That doesn't give me the right to tell you you're not allowed to ruin perfectly good cheese by coating it over a plate of brocolli, or buy the 4th season of Seinfeld on DVD. I don't get it, and I'd never do it myself, but I can't stop you from doing it.

 

The passage in the Bible proclaiming that no man shall lie with another man, nor a woman with another woman, is in the Old Testament (specifically Leviticus). The Old Testament is full of teachings that are not supported today by a single Christian. That's an indisputable fact. Face it: the Old Testament was a book written for a much older time when the world was a vastly different place than it is now. It simply doesn't apply to life in the 21st Century, much less the future.

 

  Corinthian said:

So, basically, Ender, what you're saying is that we should pick and choose among the Bible for parts that we agree with? Just ignore anything that doesn't suit your worldview?

In my mind, the teachings of Christ should take precedence in the Christian faith over the teachings of the Old Testament, and Christ is not recorded saying anything on the matter. If you're going to preach the out-dated teachings of the Old Testament, preach them all, please. Doing otherwise is simply hypocritical.

 

Besides, it is the mark of an intelligent Christian when one does not simply take everything the book says at face value, but questions it, and form their own beliefs and interpretations of the words. It's called Interperative Christianity, and it's a beautiful thing. Some people call it "reasoning", or even "intelligence".

 

But no, I'm sure that Matthew got it wrong. He must have forgotten to write down Jesus' entire sermon that day. After reading your posts, I'm now positive that Jesus said "Judge not, lest ye be judged - except for those damned gays, of course."

[Corinthian]

Corinthians and Romans are not in the Old Testament.

 

Also, I don't see how being opposed to sin is somehow being Anti-Christian.

[EnderWiggin]

  The Doctor said:

It establishes the fact that you yourself are doing exactly what Corinthian accused EW of (which, ironically enough, he also appears to be guilty of): cherry-picking the bits of the Bible you agree with, and ignoring the bits that you don't want to face, such as, let's say, the rest of the book of Leviticus.

 

Sorry, let me clarify. In case anyone is referring to my passages on Leviticus, they were to make a point.

 

If you are referring to my passage in Matthew, I invite you to take a broader view. I didn't say: "Hey, guys, judging is in the bible, let's make a law forbidding it!"

 

Even if you don't believe in "Judge, lest you be judged," which is fine, it still doesn't address my points about removing others' rights when they cause you no harm.

 

From now on, I'll just say 'don't judge people,' since it's something I personally live by. That way I don't have to be called a cherry-picker for putting Jesus-quotations around it.

 

FWIW, I tend to take everything in the bible as interpretive.

 

_EW_

[Tommycat]

I've always felt that the government should not be dealing with Marriage. Marriage is a religious institution. Civil unions should have the same rights as marriage currently does. Whether someone is married or not should be up to the church performing the ceremony. All marriages should be just another form of civil union.

[Rev7]

  The Doctor said:

According to your religion, you also can't eat pork, cut your hair, shave your face, nor let a Jew walk past you without murdering him for not accepting Jesus as his Messiah. Much less an agnostic, or heaven forbid an atheist. I look forward to seeing you come to my door with a hatchet sometime this weekend.

I am not perfect. I am sure that you were being sarcastic with that statement as well. I do not murder people for not agreeing with my religion. I am not gonna be killing anyone.

  The Doctor said:

I'll grant you one point: I don't agree with homosexuality either. I don't understand how one man can fall in love with another man, nor a woman with another woman.

That is also one of the reasons that I don't agree with homosexuality.

 

  The Doctor said:

In my mind, the teachings of Christ should take precedence in the Christian faith over the teachings of the Old Testament, and Christ is not recorded saying anything on the matter. If you're going to preach the out-dated teachings of the Old Testament, preach them all, please. Doing otherwise is simply hypocritical.

As Corinthian pointed out Corinthians and Romans are in the New Testament.

  The Doctor said:

Besides, it is the mark of an intelligent Christian when one does not simply take everything the book says at face value, but questions it, and form their own beliefs and interpretations of the words. It's called Interperative Christianity, and it's a beautiful thing. Some people call it "reasoning", or even "intelligence".

Many Christians are like that.

[EnderWiggin]

  Rev7 said:

That is also one of the reasons that I don't agree with homosexuality.

 

I don't understand how Quantum Field Theory works either but I don't disagree with it just based on my lack of comprehension, doubting Thomas. (yes, the Thomas part was a joke.)

 

_EW_

[Achilles]

I have to admit that I'm a little blown away by the fact that all the same-sex marriage bans did so resoundingly well.

 

Apparently we're only capable of certain amount of acceptance at any one time and we used it all to elect a black man President this go-round. The good news is that I think these will all be ruled unconstitutional via judicial review.

[mimartin]

  Achilles said:

Apparently we're only capable of certain amount of acceptance at any one time and we used it all to elect a black man President this go-round.

I found it depressing that 70% of African-Americans supported Proposition 8.

[CommanderQ]

Let me be frank, I'm REALLY glad that Prop 8 passed. Not only is it against my religion and its wrong, but think, if everyone was a homosexual, then in maybe, oh, one generation, everyone would be dead. There would be no offspring of a same -sex generation. Humans are not meant to be like that, it isn't right at all anatomically and in every other way.

 

I side with Rev7 and the others on many of their beliefs.

 

And to say something on earlier posts, God will always love everyone, God does not HATE anyone on Earth{unless you say the devil} he hates sin, not the sinners.

[Q]

Whether people think it's right or wrong is not the point.

 

The point is whether it's right or wrong to impose your belief system on another.

[CommanderQ]

True, IMPOSING a belief is probably a very evil cause{ that goes way back before Nazi Germany} but as Christians we don't impose on others beliefs, imposing is forcing. In history, imposing a belief would be like the Spanish Inquisition of the 1600s saying "do this or we chop something off," that isn't what Christians or other religous groups do, at least not anymore{I hope}. But there are certain things that are just, wrong, not meant to be. Not that that will stop anyone from doing them, which brings action from forms of Government.

[Tommycat]

  Qliveur said:

Whether people think it's right or wrong is not the point.

 

The point is whether it's right or wrong to impose your belief system on another.

 

Welllll that is kind of the point. People in the minority are trying to impose ther beliefs onto a society that does not agree with it. Either way it goes, you end up forcing beliefs on a group that does not want it.

 

While I tend to be in favor of same sex couples having all the rights and privelages of male-female couples, the reality is that the majority find it to be a negative thing. It's going against biology and against the majority of religious views. Many are afraid of normalizing the abnormal.

[The Doctor]

  CommanderQ said:

True, IMPOSING a belief is probably a very evil cause{ that goes way back before Nazi Germany} but as Christians we don't impose on others beliefs, imposing is forcing. In history, imposing a belief would be like the Spanish Inquisition of the 1600s saying "do this or we chop something off," that isn't what Christians or other religous groups do, at least not anymore{I hope}. But there are certain things that are just, wrong, not meant to be. Not that that will stop anyone from doing them, which brings action from forms of Government.

 

And where do you draw the line between what is imposing your own will on others and "things that are not meant to be"?

[CommanderQ]

That's a very good question, everyones own opinion would bring up a different line of no crossing. That's just the problem about pretty much everything, the lines between the "Right" and the "Wrong" are often blurred by people's own opinions and beliefs, the idea, I guess is to keep your faith in your own belief. Now, "The Things that are not meant to be," those things are things that can be dangerous to your own self {example:it isn't healthy to jump off a cliff}. But I guess the line would probably be somewhere between "not allowing it" and "being brutal about not allowing it." There must be some line in between good and bad in the world's society {I'm very sure in my belief and choice but that is only for me and others who share it}. There's always going to be a disagreement when a choice is made, that's gaurunteed.

[Achilles]

  mimartin said:

I found it depressing that 70% of African-Americans supported Proposition 8.

Apparently you need to listen to more hip-hop.

 

Being a b***h-a** n***a is a no-no.

 

  CommanderQ said:

Let me be frank, I'm REALLY glad that Prop 8 passed. Not only is it against my religion and its wrong, but think, if everyone was a homosexual, then in maybe, oh, one generation, everyone would be dead.

How do we go from "gay marriage ok: yes, no, maybe" to "everyone would die if everyone was a homosexual"?

 

  CommanderQ said:

There would be no offspring of a same -sex generation. Humans are not meant to be like that, it isn't right at all anatomically and in every other way.

Except we find homosexuality lots of other places in the animal world. Nevermind the fact that homosexuality can be healthy, as fewer males competing for females can actually help propagate a species (females mating with multiple males = increased genetic diversity, etc).

 

  CommanderQ said:

And to say something on earlier posts, God will always love everyone, God does not HATE anyone on Earth{unless you say the devil} he hates sin, not the sinners.

Yet god created us, sin, and the ability for us to sin. If you believe that in predestination, then you also believe that god intentionally made some of us to be more sinful than others. Kinda hurts the whole "god loves you" thing.

[ET Warrior]

  Tommycat said:

Welllll that is kind of the point. People in the minority are trying to impose ther beliefs onto a society that does not agree with it.

Nnnnot really. Allowing gay marriage does not force heterosexuals to be gay, or partake in gay marriage. In fact, allowing gay marriage has absolutely no impact on the lives of heterosexuals. None. Zero. Which is why it should be such a non-issue, but heterosexuals feel like it is necessary to impose their beliefs onto others.