Israeli/Palestinian Conflict MEGATHREAD

[GarfieldJL]

gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world <snipped>

 

So you just admitted the difficulty Israel has trying to hit the terrorists without hitting civilians in the process.

 

an example of israel's actions against the palestinians and how little they care about palestinian civilian deaths

 

If they didn't care about civilian deaths they would have carpet bombed the place because unguided bombs cost a lot less than smart munitions.

 

yep, the israelis only killed some palestinians no reason for the ceasefire to be broken.

 

 

i return your chuckles to you sir (because you are wrong).

 

Don't try that song and dance, I did a report on the media using doctored photos trying to condemn Israel.

 

so you're own source is what you say it is even if it's contrary to what's posted? interesting.

 

No I'm saying they over-simplified the timeline. Furthermore the interview given on Fox News which I posted the link to, gives a more detailed view as to what's going on.

 

only they did kill people in their incursion. and it does make since because the israeli government consists of hardline militants who consider genocide a valid military option.

 

Did you even bother to look for the reason as to why Israel went into Gaza, cause I can tell you it sure wasn't boredom like what you're painting it as.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

So you just admitted the difficulty Israel has trying to hit the terrorists without hitting civilians in the process, and I'm not spreading lies thank you kindly.

it'd be easier if they'd stop targeting civilian targets.

 

this seems to be your only worthwhile point (that you don't care).

 

Don't try that song and dance, I did a report on the media using doctored photos trying to condemn Israel.

and i did a report on how garfieldjl and all of his sources are liars therefore i am an expert don't try and refute me.

 

Did you even bother to look for the reason as to why Israel went into Gaza, cause I can tell you it sure wasn't boredom like what you're painting it as.

yes, i even posted about it. they broke the ceasefire, hamas retaliated, israel bombed them and played the victim with the help of arm twisting and sympathetic press.

[GarfieldJL]

Israel isn't targetting civilians they're targetting Hamas whom is hiding behind civilians so they can parade dead children on the news.

[Tommycat]

Can we just point out the elephant in the room and note that if we offered to give each of these groups one of the Dakotas if they would call it off, neither would take us up on it? This whole thing is over who gets to have pissing rights to Jerusalem.

Sadly the truest statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. We could bomb the whole area into being a water filled crater, and people would still be fighting over who gets to fish there.

[Web Rider]

Israel isn't targetting civilians they're targetting Hamas whom is hiding behind civilians so they can parade dead children on the news.

 

If there's a terrorist behind you, and you don't know it, and in front of you is a guy with a gun, do you:

 

A: want the guy to shoot through you to kill the terrorist, killing both of you in the process.

B: want the guy with the gun to ask you to move, THEN shoot the terrorist.

C: obey the cease-fire you all agreed upon and not kill anybody for the time being.

 

 

You do realize, those dead children wouldn't be dead to be paraded around on the news if Israel STOPPED BLOWING UP SCHOOLS. Who cares if every last adult in that school is a terrorist, you DONT BLOW UP CHILDREN to kill terrorists. Anyone who thinks it's OK to kill civilians who are totally unaware of who is or isn't a terrorist, and kill children who are totally innocent of anything, to kill a terrorist, needs to have their head examined.

 

Israel does not have the right to blow the beans out of Gaza whenever they please, heck, if they'd work WITH the DEMOCRACTICALLY elected Hamas government, and stop killing people, surprise, there might be fewer terrorist attacks because guess what, people don't want to kill you as much when you aren't being a complete asshat to their friends and family.

 

EDIT: and yes, to be fair, both sides are full of religious zealots who enjoy killing each other over a holy mount of dirt. God is everywhere, no one spot can be more holy than another.

[Astor]

That's a laugh, seriously Israel has not restricted shipments of food, they have required everything going in to be searched though for good reason.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Israel, which governed the Gaza Strip from 1967-2005, still controls the strip's airspace, territorial waters, and offshore maritime access, as well as its side of the Gaza-Israeli border. This continued control has allowed the Israeli state, which opposes Hamas, to control the Gazan inflow and outflow of multiple types of resources, including food. Whenever food is in short supply, Gazans have had little choice but to take in food supplied by World Food Programme workers in the area.

 

Looks pretty restrictive to me.

 

It's also important to note that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were never intended to belong to Israel in the first place - they were to become part of a new Arab State in the UN Partition Plan of 1947.

 

UN Partition Plan.

 

This whole thing is over who gets to have pissing rights to Jerusalem.

 

If everyone (and this includes both sides - Arab and Jewish) could have acted like grown ups and agreed to the original plan, without wanting it all for themselves, then Jerusalem would have effectively been neutral ground.

[Tommycat]

If there's a terrorist behind you, and you don't know it, and in front of you is a guy with a gun, do you:

 

A: want the guy to shoot through you to kill the terrorist, killing both of you in the process.

B: want the guy with the gun to ask you to move, THEN shoot the terrorist.

C: obey the cease-fire you all agreed upon and not kill anybody for the time being.

 

 

I'd choose A, but that's a bad example. See I would willingly sacrifice myself to have a terrorist removed from society, but it is MY choice the kids don't have that choice. A better analogy would be if I would shoot through my kids to kill a terrorist. That is the moral dilema. I would choose NOT to shoot.

 

Ya know the thing that bugs me about the palestinians claiming to be the victims... It's the rockets.. I mean they keep getting more. It's unlikely that the Israelis are intentionally letting them through... Yet they say that they can't get food etc. You'd think that they would use those resources to get food rather than one shot devices.

 

Oh well...

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I'd choose A, but that's a bad example. See I would willingly sacrifice myself to have a terrorist removed from society, but it is MY choice the kids don't have that choice. A better analogy would be if I would shoot through my kids to kill a terrorist. That is the moral dilema. I would choose NOT to shoot.

did you not see option b...? it's about what you'd prefer as far as i can tell...

 

Ya know the thing that bugs me about the palestinians claiming to be the victims... It's the rockets.. I mean they keep getting more. It's unlikely that the Israelis are intentionally letting them through... Yet they say that they can't get food etc. You'd think that they would use those resources to get food rather than one shot devices.

 

Oh well...

they use ****ty, homemade qassam rockets, no need to smuggle them in. if they could smuggle something better in, they would, qassam rockets suck, they've even been known to explode before getting off the ground.

[Achilles]

If everyone (and this includes both sides - Arab and Jewish) could have acted like grown ups and agreed to the original plan, without wanting it all for themselves, then Jerusalem would have effectively been neutral ground.

Most likely true, but it still misses the point.

 

What is the significance of Jerusalem?

[mimartin]

What is the significance of Jerusalem?

Touche

 

I suggest anyone think real carefully before answering this question.

 

As for me, I’m going avoid the question as if it is the black plague, other than to say that is the sums of the problem quite nicely. If there was no religious significance to that piece of real estate by the Muslims, the Jews and the Christians there really would not be a reason for this conflict.

 

Again Achilles, Touche. Game, set and match to Achilles.

[Web Rider]

I'd choose A, but that's a bad example. See I would willingly sacrifice myself to have a terrorist removed from society, but it is MY choice the kids don't have that choice. A better analogy would be if I would shoot through my kids to kill a terrorist. That is the moral dilema. I would choose NOT to shoot.

 

There are two problems with that answer though.

1: You don't know it's a terrorist. As far as you know, there may not be a terrorist behind you at all. Only the guy with the gun knows/thinks there's a terrorist behind you.

2: You are society. If we kill society to "save" it from the terrorists, even if that's what society wants, then there will be no society left to save in the end.

 

What is the significance of Jerusalem?

 

Nothing.

 

Everything.

[Achilles]

Nothing.

 

Everything.

No more Ridley Scott movies for you.

[Jae Onasi]

Yes, but the current iteration of Israel has only been around for 60 years.

The people-groups have been there thousands of years, regardless of whatever arbitrary lines get marked on the ground from time to time.

Can we just point out the elephant in the room and note that if we offered to give each of these groups one of the Dakotas if they would call it off, neither would take us up on it? This whole thing is over who gets to have rights to Jerusalem.

Well, I'd think they'd be pretty smart if they turned down life in Blizzard Central, but I''m not a big fan of wind chills in the -50F range, so I might be a little biased on that.

 

And yes, Jerusalem is a huge part of the conflict.

[Achilles]

The people-groups have been there thousands of years, regardless of whatever arbitrary lines get marked on the ground from time to time.

We're talking about the actions of a government. If you want to conflate that with a indigenous tribe feel free, however I won't be joining you.

[Jae Onasi]

We're talking about the actions of a government. If you want to conflate that with a indigenous tribe feel free, however I won't be joining you.

Who have been fighting thousands of years in that region? Arabs and Israelis.

Who are running the governments currently in that region? Arabs (Palestinians) and Israelis.

[Web Rider]

No more Ridley Scott movies for you.

 

Awwww, well, at least you got the reference. Also, who names their kid "Ridley"?

 

On a more serious note, that answer does actually explain my view on the subject. To me, Jerusalem means nothing, if God if as all-powerful and omnipresent as these religious groups say, then it's impossible for one spot to be more holy than the other. There cannot be any more of God in one spot than any other, for that would mean there is less of God somewhere else, and that God is not as infinite as they say.

 

To them, it does mean everything, they are short-sighted and narrow-minded to believe that their religious belief NEEDS this holy location. To prove that they are somehow "more right" than the other guy. It makes them feel more religious to possess it, which honestly comes off to me as Idol Worship since they are valuing the land so highly. And they will do anything, except work together, to possess it. Which honestly annoys me as if they just worked and lived together, they could both have it and nobody would die over it.

[GarfieldJL]

Well the mainstream media was all over the Israelis dropping bombs on a UN Outpost in 2006, but many of them failed to report that the UN knew that location was being used as a launching plantform.

 

The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.

 

Those words, written in an e-mail dated just nine days ago, offer a possible explanation as to why the post -- which according to UN officials was clearly marked and known to Israeli forces -- was hit by Israel on Tuesday night, said retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie yesterday.

-- Hezbollah was using UN post as a 'shield'

 

Hamas does the same thing that Hezbollah did.

[jrrtoken]

Well the mainstream media was all over the Israelis dropping bombs on a UN Outpost in 2006, but many of them failed to report that the UN knew that location was being used as a launching platform.

Please provide proof that the mainstream media went up in arms about this certain incident.

[GarfieldJL]

Please provide proof that the mainstream media went up in arms about this certain incident.

 

Here is one example:

 

BEIRUT, Lebanon - An Israeli bomb destroyed a U.N. observer post on the border in southern Lebanon Tuesday, killing three observers and leaving another feared dead, officials said. U.N. chief Kofi Annan said Israel appeared to have struck the site deliberately.

-- MSNBC: Israeli strike destroys UN post, kills three (they got their article from AP)

 

Another:

 

UNITED NATIONS � In a development that could prove a turning point in Israel's war to rid its northern border of Hezbollah, the United Nations yesterday suffered casualties in the fighting, and Secretary-General Annan immediately accused the Israeli Defense Force of a "deliberate targeting" of four blue-helmeted U.N. observers.

 

Military sources said the incident occurred during an air and artillery attack near Khiyam, at the eastern region of southern Lebanon, where the IDF was preparing a large ground assault meant to create a Hezbollah-free buffer zone on the area north of Israel's border. Four members of the United Nations's interim force in Lebanon, identified as being from Canada, Austria, China, and Finland, were killed.

-- NY Sun

[jonathan7]

Well, I had promised myself that I wasn't going to post in this thread, but having seen Israel's idiot Interior minister on the TV, I was reminded of this quote;

 

One definition of insanity is to believe that you can keep doing what you’ve been doing and get different results.

 

Hamas seems to think they are going to achieve something different to what has been achieved for the last 60 years (5,000 in total), and the same with Israel. The situation will go on as it is because the above is true; they're nuts if they think the way either side is acting is going to solve anything, it will merely produce the same continual results; suffering, death and hatred.

[Achilles]

Who have been fighting thousands of years in that region? Everybody.

Who are running the governments currently in that region? Arabs (Palestinians) and Israelis.

Fixed.

[Jae Onasi]

Fixed.

True that.

[Christos K]

I saw this thread and decided to post in it after a while... I wasnt going to at all because I thought this just wasnt the place. This is my opinion. Both sides need to stop being so damn greedy. That land is a holy place for more than just Jewish people anyone should be able to live there, vote, run and have the same laws. From what I have seen and heard I could be wrong it it the Israeli government clearly cannot stand Muslims living there. The government of that land needs to be made up of Christians, Muslims and Jews. It will not work another way. And splitting the country in to two is not gonna work that was an extremly idea. And being part American I dont mind saying this at all the U.S. goverment has no place to lend support. They can give their view of the issue but SHOULD not give favor to the Israeli government or the Palestinian government. And obviously this war means money making which is probably why the U.S. supports the Israeli governments view more money comes from there. Damnit why doesnt God just make one SUPER DUPER religion. Jesus is real and truthful, Mohammed is real and truthful, Dont know any only Jewish holy guys, gals and everything is put together for the SUPER DUPER religion. OH yah did I mention they just GET RID OF THAT CITY which has caused so many people to die it is probably equal to our current population. Now here is me picking a side. If I had to pick a side I would go with the Palestinians. To me its the more holy choice. The Israeli goverment is to greedy and manipulative in my opinion. I am not saying I hate all Israelis but that IF I had to pick a side.

[Achilles]

I saw this thread and decided to post in it. This is my opinion. Both sides need to stop being so damn greedy. That land is a holy place for more than just Jewish people anyone should be able to live there, vote, run and have the same laws.

Wouldn't that require that all three of these religions would have to believe that each of the other two have some legitimacy? Wouldn't it mean having to curtail some of their own religion's mythology?

 

I won't let a stranger borrow my car, but you expect very religiously motivated people to trust people with completely different belief systems with their most holy land? I'm not saying it's not possible. I will say that I don't see how we can expect such behavior from the people engaged in this conflict.

 

From what I have seen and heard I could be wrong it it the Israeli government clearly cannot stand Muslims living there. The government of that land needs to be made up of Christians, Muslims and Jews. It will not work another way.

I can think of one other way that it would work, but I don't think that's going to happen in our lifetimes either.

 

And splitting the country in to two is not gonna work that was an extremly idea. And being part American I dont mind saying this at all the U.S. goverment has no place to lend support. They can give their view of the issue but SHOULD not give favor to the Israeli government or the Palestinian government.

The rapture right believes that christ won't return until Israel belongs to the Israelis. I don't see them sitting this one out.

[Christos K]

You have your points. But come on the three sides are only using religion as an excuse. They ALL want eachother dead so they can claim the money. They do not fight over religion. It started out as religion but than got extreme, out of control and exagerated. The thing is this conflict has so many f!@$ing beliefs each time someone wants to get involved instead of checking the beliefs they just add their own and boom they wanted to be involved to stop it but now hate one side or the other.