Imperial Star Destroyer vs. USS Enterprise

[Kuuki]

doesnt anyone know that this sort of discussion will NEVER END!?

[Darth_Yuthura]

doesnt anyone know that this sort of discussion will NEVER END!?

 

What can we say, it's fun!

[Kuuki]

meh.

 

i suppose it's the sort of question that comes from a person who thinks Picard is the better Captain.

 

i mean

COME ON!

 

7 seasons verses 3! pfft.

sure Kirk's got more movie's, but Picard's got his fair share to compete with him!

[swphreak]

Look at what I dug out of my picture archives. I made this when I was on the high school webteam back in the day. We did absolutely nothing but screwing around in that class.

 

 

I think it's pretty clear who wins this battle

 

P.S. This was made when I was first learning Photoshop. I am only slightly better now.

[RedHawke]

If canon is contradicted by more recent canon, the more recent canon wins, offhand there was a first Season TNG episode that contradicts your argument on Ion power.

Having seen all of them I don't remember one single thing that contradicts the earlier statement about Ion power.

 

But it has been a while. Source?

 

Furthermore, the TNG Technical Manual contradicts your arguement as well, since because of the Fusion reactors on the Impulse Engines, the Enterprise also uses a form of Ion Propulsion at sublight.

I have also seen technical manuals that present the Impulse Engines on the Enterprise D as standard nuclear power, so what of it? These mean nothing as there are so many out there with varying degrees of anything that can be called accuracy.

 

It is obvious that you favor Trek, I can respect that, but I do have a right to point out the errors in your logic when they arise, as you do have a right to re-butt it.

 

I would absolutely love to get you here for a little old fashioned Napoleonic Naval Warfare gaming, and of course the venerable Star Fleet Battles, then maybe some B5 Wars... it would open your eyes on star ship tactics. If I could only get some of my old group back it would be a blast.

 

You'd be capping a 'T' like a pro in under a week.

 

Not really. Canon when based on an existing world can be wrong. For instance, Geordi in one episode claims that we had never seen a silicon based life form. Then we find tube worms here that are silicon based. Real world contradicts canon, and therefore that canon is wrong.

No matter the changes in your understanding of things in a story like Trek stated canon overrules that for that universe. In the Trek universe they have no tube worms... or they are different than ours, simple as that.

 

Note: In the Classic episode 'The Devil in the Dark' the Horta is concluded by Spock to be a silicon based life form, so in this case the earlier canon would override the newer one, as a whole episode is based on it, just like in the Ion power issue. I would defer to Gene's statements/written episodes over any of the newer ones as he was the creator of the whole universe, like Lucas can and does with Star Wars.

[Tommycat]

No matter the changes in your understanding of things in a story like Trek stated canon overrules that for that universe. In the Trek universe they have no tube worms... or they are different than ours, simple as that.

 

Note: In the Classic episode 'The Devil in the Dark' the Horta is concluded by Spock to be a silicon based life form, so in this case the earlier canon would override the newer one, as a whole episode is based on it, just like in the Ion power issue. I would defer to Gene's statements/written episodes over any of the newer ones as he was the creator of the whole universe, like Lucas can and does with Star Wars.

 

Wrong. Since the universe that Trek is based on is OUR UNIVERSE. Earth is a part of that universe. It takes place AFTER our events. So it has to take into account our science, and the LATER canon takes precidence over the EARLIER. And really... we're talking about Star Trek here... It isn't exactly the most stable of canon. It isn't like Star Wars where the canon is (mostly) preserved. In one episode, they CAN'T do that. Then the next episode they can. It is very inconsistent.

[Q]

Oh, come on!

 

The only thing consistent about Star Wars canon is the massive amount of retconning.

[Tommycat]

Oh, come on!

 

The only thing consistent about Star Wars canon is the massive amount of retconning.

 

Haha well it's still more consistent than Trek.

[Q]

They're both guilty of it.

[SW01]

Look at what I dug out of my picture archives. I made this when I was on the high school webteam back in the day. We did absolutely nothing but screwing around in that class.

 

 

I think it's pretty clear who wins this battle

 

Yep...Defiant's clearly comng in to mop up Imperial resistance.

 

Good job in having NX-01 being blown up in the centre!

 

I wonder how an Imperial crew would react to a tribble infestation...

 

And, the 'retconning' in both Wars and Trek is incredibly irritating - the only good thing about Trek is that it is only really the live-action things (and The Animated Series) that contributes to its canon, rather than every novel written on the subject. Some of those make pretty dramatic changes - I remember starting to read one that stated Kirk had not died on Viridian III, and had become active in the TNG era again.

[Wedge Suron]

Just to establish, which USS Enterprise?

 

Original? A? B? C? D? E?

 

Letters and winner

 

Original? Star Destroyer

 

A? Star Destroyer

 

B? Star Destroyer

 

C? Star Destroyer

 

D? A Tough battle but Star Destroyer

 

E would have a fair chance I think. So, it could go either way.

[Darth_Yuthura]

It is obvious that you favor Trek, I can respect that, but I do have a right to point out the errors in your logic when they arise, as you do have a right to re-butt it.

 

I would like to point out an error in your logic: It is all based on a single quote. Instead of attempting to reinforce the validity of that one source, why not find more sources to verify what you've claimed?

 

Ion energy is probably just fusion energy, which is the kind they used in torpedos aboard early star ships. They switch to photon torpedos (anti-matter warheads) because they were more powerful. I would hardly imagine they would suddenly decide to go back using huge buttons instead of touchsceens. Boxes with a speaker instead of devices as small as cell phones. Cartridges instead of flash memory for computers.

 

Canon is like geoforming and when you have a destructive event like a volcanic eruption, it destroys or deforms the landscape that was once there. It didn't mean there wasn't a forest before, but there clearly wasn't one along the slopes of Mount st Helens. Likewise, new canon dominates and replaces old canon.

[EnderWiggin]

I would like to point out an error in your logic: It is all based on a single quote.

 

How is that an error?

 

What he said was neither fallacious nor false.

 

_EW_

[GarfieldJL]

How is that an error?

 

What he said was neither fallacious nor false.

 

_EW_

 

It's in error because another episode had the USS Enterprise NCC-1701 survive a direct hit from a weapon designed to completely destroy planets and use the rubble as fuel. To add to that the USS Constellation also survived a hit from that weapon, so it wasn't a fluke.

 

 

So we have Kirk's Enterprise surviving a weapon that was the equivalent of the Death Star, and you're telling me that an ISD stands a snowball's chance in hell of taking on the NCC-1701 let alone Enterprise D or E? Seriously, the only way a star destroyer could win is if it was Archer's Enterprise that didn't have decent shielding... By the time the Constitution Class starships rolled out, Trek tech largely surpassed the tech seen in Star Wars.

 

The single quote that is being used is contradicted by an entire Star Trek Episode and that's just from the original series, there are other episodes in TNG, DS9, and VOY that contradict that one quote. More recent Trek episodes take precidence over the ones in the 60s and entire episodes take precidence over a single quote from an episode, in which you could argue that Scotty happened to be drunk when he said the line.

[Q]

Ah, you're referring to the Great Cornucopia from Hell:

 

 

Kinda reminds me of where this thread is going:

 

 

 

[Darth_Yuthura]

The single quote that is being used is contradicted by an entire Star Trek Episode and that's just from the original series, there are other episodes in TNG, DS9, and VOY that contradict that one quote. More recent Trek episodes take precidence over the ones in the 60s and entire episodes take precidence over a single quote from an episode, in which you could argue that Scotty happened to be drunk when he said the line.

 

Thank-you!

 

Now this episode is divine proof that if the 1701 can take a hit that would destroy a planet; it most certainly is more powerful than a Star Destroyer. This ONE episode proves beyond a doubt that Star Trek shield/power sources are many times greater than Star Wars. A star destroyer couldn't withstand that.

[True_Avery]

Or we could come to the conclusion that the writers had no idea and still have no idea what they are talking about and trying to piece it together and determine what is "true" and what is not ends up just being as much BS as just making up the science on the spot.

 

I'm going to go with that.

[Tommycat]

Or we could come to the conclusion that the writers had no idea and still have no idea what they are talking about and trying to piece it together and determine what is "true" and what is not ends up just being as much BS as just making up the science on the spot.

 

I'm going to go with that.

seconded

[Astor]

Ah, you're referring to the Great Cornucopia from Hell:

 

Kinda reminds me of where this thread is going:

 

 

We're already there, man.

[Quanon]

Or we could come to the conclusion that the writers had no idea and still have no idea what they are talking about and trying to piece it together and determine what is "true" and what is not ends up just being as much BS as just making up the science on the spot.

 

I'm going to go with that.

 

True !

 

Its all made up in the end by people who have no idea what science is and just slap names on things that sound cool

 

But I like the sinister design of the ISD, so it wins the design contest

[GarfieldJL]

Or we could come to the conclusion that the writers had no idea and still have no idea what they are talking about and trying to piece it together and determine what is "true" and what is not ends up just being as much BS as just making up the science on the spot.

 

I'm going to go with that.

 

In this case the writers did know what they were talking about, hate to break it to you, but that one Trek episode completely debunks the idea that an ISD could actually take on Kirk's Enterprise.

 

 

There was another episode involving an alien cloud creature that fed on blood that there was an antimatter bomb used to kill it.

 

Kirk decides to use himself as bait and remain behind to detonate the bomb. He orders Garrovick back to the ship, but the young officer refuses to abandon his Captain and a fight ensues before Kirk can explain that he does not mean to sacrifice himself. Garrovick winds up on report. The two ready the bomb as the creature draws near. With the creature ready to envelop them, Kirk and Garrovick beam away and the antimatter bomb explodes, annihilating the entity and most of Tycho IV with it.

-- Wikipedia summary of Star Trek TOS Episode: Obsession

 

I underlined the key word of most of the planet being destroyed, and that was from a device that wasn't anywhere near the size of a Turbolaser, and yet it on explosion it took out most of the planet, and that's what the Enterprise uses to generate fuel.

 

That's two ToS episodes that directly contradict that one line being used, and prove that an ISD wouldn't stand a chance against the Enterprise.

[EnderWiggin]

That's two ToS episodes that directly contradict that one line being used, and prove that an ISD wouldn't stand a chance against the Enterprise.

 

Actually, what you posted does not 'directly contradict' that line. In fact, it doesn't contradict it at all

 

The first one may, but this one... doesn't.

 

_EW_

[GarfieldJL]

Actually, what you posted does not 'directly contradict' that line. In fact, it doesn't contradict it at all

 

It actually does, since the device that Kirk used was extremely small and could be manipulated without heavy lifters and most of that would have been containment field generators, it counters the line completely and shows that an ISD doesn't stand a chance.

 

The antimatter used was from the Enterprise's own fuel supply, that explosion was just from what the Enterprise uses for power. Apparently the damage was enough to be visible from orbit, that much power from an object that was smaller than a human being.

 

A Star Destroyer needs to use a series of turbolaser salvos to cause that kind of damage. Yet the Enterprise crew would just need to use a small amount of their equivalent of what we use gasoline for in automobiles to cause that kind of damage.

 

The first one may, but this one... doesn't.

 

Considering that a Photon Torpedo has a matter/antimatter warhead and the device Kirk used was essentially matter/antimatter explosive device, it not only contradicts the line about Ion power (which we can say Scotty had too much Scotch Whiskey), it also makes the idea that an ISD could last even five minutes against the Enterprise NCC-1701 laughable, let alone taking on a Galaxy Class Starship.

 

To calculate the energy released by a photon torpedo on impact.

 

E (total energy) = ((mass of matter + mass of antimatter for warhead)*c^2)+(mass of rest of torpedo)*(velocity of torpedo)^2

 

I believe the standard yield of a photon torpedo at rest translates out to at least 64.4 Megatons and that's without throwing the added damage kinetic energy causes.

 

A real life example of the damage kinetic energy can do, look at the Gulf of Mexico, which is supposedly caused by a large meteorite.

 

Proton Torpedos (that X-Wings carry) from Star Wars aren't nearly as large as a photon torpedo and are supposedly a glorified H-Bomb. The Proton torpedos of an X-Wing Starfighter supposedly have the destructive power in the Kiloton range.

 

Note, it is mentioned in the X-Wing books that a full squadron of X-Wings firing a salvo of torpedos into a Star Destroyer's shields (the same shield area let's say the dorsal side), can down that shield and a tactic is then to roll the ship to present areas where the shields are still up to protect the ship.

 

12 X-Wings with 2 Proton Torpedo tubes each translates into 48 torpedos. Even if all of them were at 1 Megaton (which wookieepedia states that the Torps on an X-Wing are in the Kiloton range) that would translate into 48 megatons to take down the particle shields.

 

A single Photon Torpedo with 1.5 kg of matter and 1.5 kg of antimatter which by the formula E=mc^2 (wikipedia) would be equivalent to a 64.4 Megaton explosion.

 

So a single Photon Torpedo has more destructive power than 48 Proton Torpedos and the Enterprise D can fire 10 Photon Torpedos from the same torpedo tube in rapid succession before needing to reload.

 

If based on the math (from the sources), 1 Photon Torpedo should be able to bring down the shields of an ISD, imagine what the remaining 9 would do to the unshielded hull before the ship could roll over and present another shield to protect the ship... I'm not even sure the ISD would be in one piece after the first volley let alone long enough to do serious damage to a Galaxy Class starship (which has 2 Photon torpedo launchers (3 if the saucer is seperated from the stardrive and is also in the fight)). Photon torpedos have the ability to change direction and home in on a target. So that's an additional 10-20 Torpedoes all coming at the Star Destroyer in rapid succession...

[Darth_Yuthura]

This was a great thread! It's so amusing to see one side battle another like this. It's almost like two religions clashing over who's god is the one true god.

 

"What? She killed them with mathematics... what else could it have been?"

~Adam Baldwin playing Jayne in Firefly

 

I must say I really find this whole thing very interesting and hope that it won't erupt into some kind of war. It's all fictional, but let's not let continuity problems get in the way of real sci-fci evidence... I can't believe I could actually suggest that.

 

GarfieldJL actually brings a perfect argument that CAN'T really be argued. Translate proton torpedoes to nuclear weapons and they still can bring down a star destroyer's shields and it shows that a single photon torpedo has the same destructive power as 48 (under most favorable estimations of proton torpedo's explosive yield) Clearly, a Galaxy class ship would dominate based on the photon torpedos alone.

[Mav]

ISD wins because it is hueg liek xbawks

>:[