Improving TALES OF MONKEY ISLAND!

[Guy.brush]

I love the expression in his eyes. Like he didn't find the fuel for the chainsaw and now LocustChuck is about to jump in his face.

[parabolee]

He is a crabby sod most of the time but he's not that bad - you get used to it and a lot of it isn't meant to be taken at face value. 9 times out of 10 if he's really being a dick to someone it's because they're being a dick too. You can see from this post he's not shy about putting his hand up and saying "I was wrong" when the need arises.

 

I know I may not have a massive post count, but I've actually been around these parts for a fair old while and, honestly, SyntheticGerbil is pretty cool once you get to know him.

 

Got to know, him. Still a dick. And that post was right after he just got called out for being a dick.

 

And in our last argument I pointed out a bunch of times when he claimed he said things that he had not said (or that he was talking about something he wasn't because he was proved wrong on his first point). He just ignored the fact he was clearly wrong, so I have to question his ability to admit he was wrong too. Other than right after he's been called out for ****ting on everyone else while not actually contributing anything of worth himself.

 

Whatever, I have better things to do than waste my time on idiots like him.

 

I actually come here to have pleasant and polite discussions with other decent and like minded people. Of which there is plenty, but there is always that one jerk who has to start trouble every times he posts, it's what he gets off on.

[Nickelstein]

So I shouldn't make the popcorn for epic Internet fight?

Awwwwwwwwwwww.... Well folks shows over

[Fealiks]

Jesus Christ this thread is just like my porno collection... full of dicks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WAIT

[Glokidd]

well i spent all night animating CoG Guybrush...

 

 

and a little emoticon version:

 

I was bored

[Tower Five]

Bored or not, that is excellent.

 

Guybrush looks wonderfully overwhelmed.

[Ascovel]

Anyway, ToMI doesn't need any improving. It looks good. Really.

[Thrik]

well i spent all night animating CoG Guybrush...

 

 

and a little emoticon version:

 

I was bored

 

Hahaha!

[QueZTone]

well that last animated icon is one of the few good things of this thread...

 

two people have been at it for a while now over here in the forums... and while they have worthy contributions next to these awful posts.. the latter ones pollute the atmosphere terribly. Just knock it off.

 

I feel some of the first (elaine, lechuck) screenshots guy.brush posted are indeed an improvement lighting-wise. I'm quite the critic myself when it comes to graphics, especially when we've been met with such high standards in previous titles.

 

While the TMI graphics are nowhere near my preferred gfx level for a 'MI5' I think we can be glad to even see this game released. They're a small studio and they've already accomplished amazing things. Big Whoop to them! (no really, not in a lame way)

 

I agree with the lack of quality in lighting, the lack of detail in textures and modelling and the lack of pirates on LeChuck's ship. But let's hope the story-telling, voice acting (which is superb) and eventual gameplay will more than make up for it.

 

Bring it on!

[Fealiks]

Haha, that COG guybrush is excellent... it should get added as an emoticon here.

 

Also, do people want a Monkey Island with bumb maps, meticulous detail and realistic colours? I like it the way it is, I hadn't even considered poor graphics until people started talking about it. I like the new style. I hope they don't bring in a load of high end graphicsy people to make all of their games "beautiful"... Telltale would die if that happened.

[Thrik]

Haha, that COG guybrush is excellent... it should get added as an emoticon here.

 

Done.

[Fealiks]

Done.

 

 

Oh God yes

[Guy.brush]

Ha I contributed something to the site!

Also, do people want a Monkey Island with bumb maps, meticulous detail and realistic colours? I like it the way it is, I hadn't even considered poor graphics until people started talking about it. I like the new style. I hope they don't bring in a load of high end graphicsy people to make all of their games "beautiful"

 

Well to be honest, yes I would like that. Not bump maps for the sake of adding tech details but for the sake of bringing the 3d art closer towards a fully detailed rich 2D-ish environment.

 

I have thought long and hard about this and I believe there is a general rift between two camps of Monkey Island fans.

One camp (guys like me), who imagined the world depicted by the 1990 2D pixel art to be a lot like the Steve Purcell cover art. Rich in detail, a little exaggerated but almost natural in lighting. Oozing atmosphere.

We would love nothing more than for the Monkey Island movie concept art to come to life. As a 2D animated film, or a 3D videogame, who cares. But we'd like to have a real piratey, swash-buckling adventure where the humor is integral but no the only thing contributing to the exotic "Caribbean" atmosphere.

These images are of course 200 years old, ultra-romantic and natural, but give a sense of how the world of Monkey Island could feel when it would be approached from a more POTC angle.

Now I don't want a Caspar David Friedrich Monkey Island , but some of those elements, like the more natural looking vegetation or the beautiful lighting, characters that are slightly less cartoony would go a long way (imho).

Not every screen or frame has to be a painting, worthy of being framed on your wall, but imagine every 3rd screen to be beautiful enough that you would consider hanging it up there

 

To do a world that would feel similar to this would mean immensive work and care, especially when it comes to characters.

Now when CMI was made in 1997, the videogame world was at a crossroads.

3D still was ugly looking. Remember the Indiana Jones 3D game from then? Well Monkey Island would've suffered a lot, cause it depends on atmosphere and art style, almost as much as on humor and characters (at least in my opinion)

So instead of doing an ugly looking CMI in 3D they went with 2D.

BUT: They practically were forced to cartoonify the graphics a lot more, because of the higher resolution they were working in and the constraints they had. Bill Tiller says so in an interview. Animating highly detailed 2D characters with lots of lines and facial features would've been a nightmare and not feasible at all. Imagine animating a 2D Steve Purcell LeChuck cover art. NIGHTMARE!

So they made the best out of that situation and CMI really is beautiful. It walks a fine line stylistically. I'd say it sits between the more intricately detailed animated movies (e.g. older Disney features) and the more simplified stuff for Saturday Morning Cartoons.

 

I always hoped that the border that was established then would not be crossed too drastically, so that the piratey flavor, the romantic nature of living an adventure would not be buried under the more cartoony elements.

Again: I don't need MONKEY ISLAND to be THE DIG, but I don't need MONKEY ISLAND to be SAM & MAX either. The middleground between those two is the fascinating stuff, at least for me.

 

We are now in 2009, we had one very cartoony looking EMI in 2000 and 3D has come a long way since then. We can have characters where you don't see polygon features or hard edges anymore. We can have secondary, physics based animations for coats, hairs, tails whatever. Modern engines support lots of dynamic lights, pixel shaders and all kinds of mood enhancing little tricks and techniques. We have normal maps to simulate intricate detail on surfaces (perfect for house bricks, wooden planks, etc)

In a "perfect world", we would now see a new MONKEY ISLAND that would fully utilize (some) of those new techniques to bring characters to life, that would rival e.g. Purcell's Monkey Island - The Movie concept art.

Some of those "high-end" techniques could not only enhance the graphics and atmosphere, but give us all kinds of new puzzles. Why not do a physics based puzzles and traps? Think ships at sea!

Why not give Guybrush a torch and he would have to enter a cave labyrinth and decipher an old voodoo language?

Why not do something akin to the Black & White creature-slapping? Why not utilize the ability of the camera to roam freely and make a puzzle out of that? Guybrush always had a playful relationship with his master (the player) there could be lots potential in a 3d world for that.

 

What we get now is the safe bet. It's nice. I'll buy it. It's another cartoony MONKEY ISLAND that THANK GOD looks a lot better than EMI. But it's basically a game that is a nostalgic trip up memory lane for us old grumpy men wanting the same experience again, only this time in 3D - but not too much 3D, cause we wouldn't want Gears of War or any of that modern crap. And sadly a "high-tech" 3D Monkey Island would cost too much and be too much work for what is considered a fringe franchise at best nowadays.

I'd love nothing more for a game with real humor and wit and character to be at the forefront of 3D videogame advancements and not this twitch-shooter-crap that get's churned out endlessly by the industry.

But I guess we will have to wait...and enjoy TMI!

 

Now I forgot something: Yeah the second camp of Monkey fans. Well the second camp probably is everyone else thinking I'm a mad old grumpy man

 

EDIT: I forgot another thought I had: Look at the Batman reboot. Tonally and stylistically totally different, yet it's still Batman at it's core. And the best thing is: You can still watch the Keaton version without it being devaluated. I would love nothing more for someone to pick up Monkey Island 10 years from now and really reboot it. Maybe with an artstyle that noone has thought about yet

[InsoFox]

Ha I contributed something to the site!

 

 

Well to be honest, yes I would like that. Not bump maps for the sake of adding tech details but for the sake of bringing the 3d art closer towards a fully detailed rich 2D-ish environment.

 

I have thought long and hard about this and I believe there is a general rift between two camps of Monkey Island fans.

One camp (guys like me), who imagined the world depicted by the 1990 2D pixel art to be a lot like the Steve Purcell cover art. Rich in detail, a little exaggerated but almost natural in lighting. Oozing atmosphere.

We would love nothing more than for the Monkey Island movie concept art to come to life. As a 2D animated film, or a 3D videogame, who cares. But we'd like to have a real piratey, swash-buckling adventure where the humor is integral but no the only thing contributing to the exotic "Caribbean" atmosphere.

These images are of course 200 years old, ultra-romantic and natural, but give a sense of how the world of Monkey Island could feel when it would be approached from a more POTC angle.

Now I don't want a Caspar David Friedrich Monkey Island , but some of those elements, like the more natural looking vegetation or the beautiful lighting, characters that are slightly less cartoony would go a long way (imho).

Not every screen or frame has to be a painting, worthy of being framed on your wall, but imagine every 3rd screen to be beautiful enough that you would consider hanging it up there

 

To do a world that would feel similar to this would mean immensive work and care, especially when it comes to characters.

Now when CMI was made in 1997, the videogame world was at a crossroads.

3D still was ugly looking. Remember the Indiana Jones 3D game from then? Well Monkey Island would've suffered a lot, cause it depends on atmosphere and art style, almost as much as on humor and characters (at least in my opinion)

So instead of doing an ugly looking CMI in 3D they went with 2D.

BUT: They practically were forced to cartoonify the graphics a lot more, because of the higher resolution they were working in and the constraints they had. Bill Tiller says so in an interview. Animating highly detailed 2D characters with lots of lines and facial features would've been a nightmare and not feasible at all. Imagine animating a 2D Steve Purcell LeChuck cover art. NIGHTMARE!

So they made the best out of that situation and CMI really is beautiful. It walks a fine line stylistically. I'd say it sits between the more intricately detailed animated movies (e.g. older Disney features) and the more simplified stuff for Saturday Morning Cartoons.

 

I always hoped that the border that was established then would not be crossed too drastically, so that the piratey flavor, the romantic nature of living an adventure would not be buried under the more cartoony elements.

Again: I don't need MONKEY ISLAND to be THE DIG, but I don't need MONKEY ISLAND to be SAM & MAX either. The middleground between those two is the fascinating stuff, at least for me.

 

We are now in 2009, we had one very cartoony looking EMI in 2000 and 3D has come a long way since then. We can have characters where you don't see polygon features or hard edges anymore. We can have secondary, physics based animations for coats, hairs, tails whatever. Modern engines support lots of dynamic lights, pixel shaders and all kinds of mood enhancing little tricks and techniques. We have normal maps to simulate intricate detail on surfaces (perfect for house bricks, wooden planks, etc)

In a "perfect world", we would now see a new MONKEY ISLAND that would fully utilize (some) of those new techniques to bring characters to life, that would rival e.g. Purcell's Monkey Island - The Movie concept art.

Some of those "high-end" techniques could not only enhance the graphics and atmosphere, but give us all kinds of new puzzles. Why not do a physics based puzzles and traps? Think ships at sea!

Why not give Guybrush a torch and he would have to enter a cave labyrinth and decipher an old voodoo language?

Why not do something akin to the Black & White creature-slapping? Why not utilize the ability of the camera to roam freely and make a puzzle out of that? Guybrush always had a playful relationship with his master (the player) there could be lots potential in a 3d world for that.

 

What we get now is the safe bet. It's nice. I'll buy it. It's another cartoony MONKEY ISLAND that THANK GOD looks a lot better than EMI. But it's basically a game that is a nostalgic trip up memory lane for us old grumpy men wanting the same experience again, only this time in 3D - but not too much 3D, cause we wouldn't want Gears of War or any of that modern crap. And sadly a "high-tech" 3D Monkey Island would cost too much and be too much work for what is considered a fringe franchise at best nowadays.

I'd love nothing more for a game with real humor and wit and character to be at the forefront of 3D videogame advancements and not this twitch-shooter-crap that get's churned out endlessly by the industry.

But I guess we will have to wait...and enjoy TMI!

 

Now I forgot something: Yeah the second camp of Monkey fans. Well the second camp probably is everyone else thinking I'm a mad old grumpy man

 

 

You posted all this stuff on the telltale forums, too, as has been pointed out and I think the Telltale folks more than adequately answered why the sort of thing you're expecting of them is not really a reasonable ask at this point in Telltale's and their engine's development. But it looks like you get that, now.

 

But even THEN, this is just what you want. Other people might want it too, but personally am glad that TTG chose a bold, consistent style and stuck with it, and the latest screens to come out give me confidence that the final product will look great for it. I don't think this is a 'compromise', I think this is the result of a lot of hard work on TTG's part to make a great looking MI game for their engine.

[Monkey Mania]

We can only hope for season 2 that they make improvements.

[Scapetti]

We can only hope for season 2 that they make improvements.

 

Season 2?!?! o_O I don't know if I can deal with THAT much Monkey Island... They should make an episodic Maniac Mansion next!

[MusicallyInspired]

I wouldn't really call TMI a season since it's all one long game separated into parts unlike the Strong Bad, Sam & Max, and W&G games. Which is what I love about it. In which case I'd love another sequel.

[SyntheticGerbil]

Okay, long post here, and then I will be working all three day weekend:

 

He just ignored the fact he was clearly wrong, so I have to question his ability to admit he was wrong too. Other than right after he's been called out for ****ting on everyone else while not actually contributing anything of worth himself.

 

I've contributed more than enough in my 8 years here, "rookie," but go on.

 

Since you are so obsessed with who's wrong and who's right, can you tell me exactly that "first point" that I was wrong about? About the poses being stiff and harming the animation? That was pretty much my only point the whole time without me using my ****ty English and argumentative skills and derailing the topic. I don't understand. It's not like your 8 minute long pilot (If long snarky Newgrounds cartoons that don't move count as pilots) shows a good knowledge of strong poses, and you never did refer me to any animation book about how increasing the amount of frames washes over drawing problems. Someone even posted some Preston Blair pages from the part where he goes into strong poses, so I don't know what else you want. I deleted all my posts because I don't need to go back on forth on something so basic in animation with you in particular and I really can't keep up with all of the long posts.

 

If you want to go on about how clearly right you are, then go on, whatever, you win. I noticed even after you kept hammering the same points ad nauseam nearly every post in like six different threads, even if they were not directly pointed to me. Okay, I can't sit here and rip graphics and put together gifs at work all day. Sorry about that. I guess your job is fine with you spending a whole work day on it, but mine is not.

 

Anyways, back on topic here:

I have thought long and hard about this and I believe there is a general rift between two camps of Monkey Island fans.

One camp (guys like me), who imagined the world depicted by the 1990 2D pixel art to be a lot like the Steve Purcell cover art. Rich in detail, a little exaggerated but almost natural in lighting. Oozing atmosphere.

We would love nothing more than for the Monkey Island movie concept art to come to life. As a 2D animated film, or a 3D videogame, who cares. But we'd like to have a real piratey, swash-buckling adventure where the humor is integral but no the only thing contributing to the exotic "Caribbean" atmosphere.

 

Funny you have said this, because I have thought about this too in the past and I really agree with this. There are a lot of fans out there who are only fans of Monkey Island because of CMI or would like to see every game redone in CMI's style. While I loved the atmosphere in CMI, I wasn't so into the characters when I played it long ago although I can appreciate their construction a lot more now. I don't necessarily think after LeChuck's Revenge, that everything following and leading up to the non-stop one-liners in EMI was what was originally planned. LeChuck's Revenge was a pretty scary game to me when I was 9 years old. I still kind of get chills running around the underground tunnels when replaying the end.

 

But some people really love CMI, and they can't be abandoned, so what can you do? There's probably more fan art and fan fiction based on CMI designs than any LucasArts game out there (that isn't Star Wars).

 

images posted

 

Those are indeed very beautiful, but maybe a little more moody than Steve Purcell would ever do. Some of Purcell's stuff, while mostly goofy in a darker way, tends to be moody because I would guess the influence from his old pal Mike Mignola. Jake did admit they needed and were working on better lighting, but I bet even with the best engine, they wouldn't go that dramatic, or at least not on every part. Although I would love a return to form to MI2.

 

The intro could use that sort of dramatic lighting though.

 

BUT: They practically were forced to cartoonify the graphics a lot more, because of the higher resolution they were working in and the constraints they had. Bill Tiller says so in an interview. Animating highly detailed 2D characters with lots of lines and facial features would've been a nightmare and not feasible at all. Imagine animating a 2D Steve Purcell LeChuck cover art. NIGHTMARE!

 

Well, you really aren't going to solve that problem with any 2D animation. It's an age old problem. Character designs in animation are always streamlined for that purpose. Animating a detailed painting is something no man can properly do for longer than a few seconds, if even that. Steve Purcell sure wouldn't be able to do it.

 

I don't know how familiar you are with Richard Williams beyond the work in Roger Rabbit, but a lot of his work is super complicated and moves characters with high details. It's all masterfully done, but he is very gifted. Outside of shorter commercials and films he has done, even The Thief and the Cobbler had streamlined characters just to avoid the nightmare you speak of.

 

3D has indeed somewhat skirted around the age old problem, but has added more problems. Stiffness, lack of character, and a personal artist's touch would be my argument against that. But the stuff is okay enough for a video game. I'll let the people on Cartoonbrew go back and forth about it.

 

What we get now is the safe bet. It's nice. I'll buy it. It's another cartoony MONKEY ISLAND that THANK GOD looks a lot better than EMI.

 

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I know of a few people on the team who lean much more towards the LeChuck's Revenge style in terms of what they enjoy. It may even get there if given another season. I can only hope.

 

The fact that they rebooted Guybrush back to his MI2 self and have already used darker cool greens and blue colors in some of the gameplay makes me happy for now.

 

Don't get me wrong, I was originally arguing with you about Telltale's resources, I'm not about to jump on the bandwagon and say the game is lit that way because that's what's suitable to Monkey Island. I guess I had been told before about limitations in the Telltale engine in terms of lighting, but it sounds like they are trying and improving on such lighting support.

 

Sorry I sort of coaxed you into the Telltale forums. I kind of feel bad about it. The team may have responded a little harsh at first and some of your language came off a little harsh like when you said they had "no excuse" at one point. But I think it's really all for the better, because they confirmed to you it's problem they know they have and will take your stuff into consideration later as Mark Darin said. The guy who also posted the original Gears of Guybrush picture was a programmer though, not a lighting artist. He was just having some fun.

[Guy.brush]

Thanks for understanding me in a way. I'm fine with the cartoony look, heck I might have a little kid in 3 years who knows, and I'd love nothing more for her/him to experience the cartoony TelltaleGames at an early age.

But there is always the inner child in me, that played through MI2 and was a little scarred what might await him in the next screen.

I was literally "in a little over my head". I was 10 at the time and that little dark-spooky-voodoo touch really stuck.

Basically the same thing happened two years later with GABRIEL KNIGHT: SINS OF THE FATHERS. The content was a little more mature, but i was again a little two young for the content on display, but man was it a magical ride!

 

I think what I really miss is the good ole end of 80s, early 90s adventure days. Look at GHOSTBUSTERS. Hilarious at times, and still - it contains lots of elements that make a child a little frightened. It's those elements, that made films like GHOSTBUSTERS, THE GOONIES, BACK TO THE FUTURE, INDIANA JONES etc...

They all had the hilarious humor element but also the darker "growing of age" stuff. Nowadays it's all very clearly separated. You get your horror games, your twitch shooters or your cartoony funny games.

I think there is room for crossover.

[SyntheticGerbil]

Basically the same thing happened two years later with GABRIEL KNIGHT: SINS OF THE FATHERS. The content was a little more mature, but i was again a little two young for the content on display, but man was it a magical ride!

 

I agree! The first Gabriel Knight is also one of my favorite adventure games. Monkey Island 2 and Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers certainly share a lot in terms of mood, of course with GK being much more sinister. Both games are also very funny at times.

 

I see what you are saying with Ghostbusters as a reference too. I think I really enjoy the horror or dark part of life mixed with a bit of humor. Maybe that's why I'm so attracted to Hellboy as well...

 

All Hellboy video games really suck though.

[Fealiks]

I think you misunderstood what I said, guy.bush (actually, I think I worded it pretty badly) - I agree that the darker stuff and atmospheric elements have a place in the game. What I meant was that I would hate to see a photorealistic Monkey Island, in a sense. I mean, I wouldn't mind it being photorealistic in terms of actual graphics, but if it was fully realistic in style then it would lose a lot.

 

Basically, I'm okay with what you're saying as long as you aren't suggesting the removal of a certain style (which I don't think you are now ).

[Nickelstein]

Gabriel Knight was too scary for me. I'll stick to my Monkey island games. I hate the fact that you can die at any moment and if you didn't save for a while you'll have to start the whole thing AGAIN. I remember when I was playing Beneath A Steel Sky (BASS, no relation to the fish). I hadn't saved for at least half-hour and I died becuase I forgot an inventory item. When I reloaded the save I was pissed. I had to redo the puzzle that involves hacking into LINC in order to get a virus. I hated it when I had to hack into LINC. I really did.

[Antibacterial]

 

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the above screenshot, grabbed directly from the game. As far as I'm aware, that's not even the highest graphics settings the game provides. Where is the issue?

[Guy.brush]

No of course not Fealiks. MONKEY ISLAND - IS - style. I wouldn't want FINAL FANTASY: SPIRITS WITHIN characters running around my beloved Caribbean Islands.

But to sum it up: In my view of Monkey Island I wouldn't mind if a secondary character would die some time. There would be real actual DEATH (!) [sHOCKING].

Remember there were some pretty gruesome animations in LECHUCK. e.g. when his leg breaks apart in the tunnels.

I'm not talking horror or mayhem and massmurder here, but why not do a game with something like a FULL THROTTLE premise? Where the stakes are high. Where there is something to be gained, lost.

The eternal wedding struggle between LeChuck-Elaine-Guybrush is growing a little old by now. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have the old fellas and themes back, but I wouldn't mind for the universe to grow a little, both in size and in maturity.

 

EDIT: To reply to the screenshot posted above. No there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it. It totally fits within the style of TMI.

The skycolor looks a little too much like lagoon water for my taste, but that is my opinion.

My personal taste would suggest the surroundings could have a lot more detail though. Especially the ships could need more work (if that is a ship). They look a little bit like made out of stone (especially in the intro, but maybe that comes with the lack of detail items).

In animation, often times the characters themselves have a little less detail than the actual surroundings. (cause it's easier to paint intricate backgrounds than to do the same with animated characters)

In the case of TMI, i feel this is somewhat reversed. The characters look more detailed than the screens they run around in. I would love to have the TMI Caribbean to have a little more pepp and atmosphere.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the above screenshot, grabbed directly from the game. As far as I'm aware, that's not even the highest graphics settings the game provides. Where is the issue?

 

Er, I don't know. It's only ONE screenshot. I think we were referring to a hell of a lot more than that. It's simply true to say that TTGs lighting in their games isn't the best (I'm guessing it's really mostly done with textures, which would take a lot longer to produce). I'm sure they're getting better, though... it's not a deal breaker.