Am I the only one who thinks Star Wars should die?

[Primogen]

I wouldn't bet money on her dying.

[Sabretooth]

Well, dibs on her getting sold off to a Hutt as a sex slave then.

[Samnmax221]

No one ever stays dead in Star Wars. They show up in one form or another no matter how much it might **** up the story.

 

Also that guy in the background of [random scene], he's a secret Jedi.

[VeniVidiVicous]

Well even bad taste is taste.

 

Just proves we all have different taste and saying you think something is good or bad is very different than making a statement saying something is good or bad.

 

Right, well i'll right now make the official statement that the Force Unleashed is bad.

My main beef with this is that books and films try and not make the force users seem too invincible and this game comes out with CrashDown from BattleStar Galactica and pisses all over that idea.

They've even written novels on the force unleashed now!!

 

 

So one of your many beefs is that there is a kids show at all?

 

I don't care that it's a kids show, I just think it's a really poor show that happens to be a kids show.

 

If you are complaining about "ruining other canon in different time periods", Traviss was one of the worst offenders, regardless if her writing was good or not. Not to mentioned the ultimate Gary Stu-ness of her Mandos and Boba Fett.

 

Can you give me an example of canon she messed with? Can someone fill me in on what this Mary Stu/Gavin Stu thing is all about btw?

 

And for the record, she left of her own accord.

 

After saying we're going to forget your Republic Cammando series because we want to use the crap kids tv show as official canon.

[Tommycat]

After saying we're going to forget your Republic Cammando series because we want to use the crap kids tv show as official canon.

They always do that. Video games books and comics are always considered lesser canon than film and TV shows. It shouldn't have been a surprise.

 

Video games are low on the totem pole. Right above fan-fics.

 

And again, even though you don't like it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be canon. I mean if the Sun-King and the Season Scepter can be canon, then so be it. It doesn't mean I have to like that, or even reference it in future works(thank heavens there's no references to them in any other works...that I know of).

[mimartin]

Right, well i'll right now make the official statement that the Force Unleashed is bad.

My main beef with this is that books and films try and not make the force users seem too invincible and this game comes out with CrashDown from BattleStar Galactica and pisses all over that idea.

 

They've even written novels on the force unleashed now!!

 

So what, you don't like it. I don't like Justin Beaver or Miley Cyrus. It does not mean that other people can't enjoy their music (although to be honest I'm not even 100% sure Justin Beaver is a musician). I know at least three kids that absolutely love Force Unleashed. What does that mean? Nothing, but just saying something did not meet your personal taste requirements only means one thing. YOU did not like it. Others are just as entitled to their opinion as you are and their opinion is more important to their person taste than your opinion, just as your opinion is more important to you.

 

You do know the opposite of loving something isn’t hating something? It is being indifferent towards it because it isn’t worth the effort to gripe about it.

[Darth Avlectus]

 

Uhuhuhuhuh-huhuh. Beaver. Huhuh-huh-huhuhuhuh.

[Taak Farst]

thread derailment at it's best GTA:SWCity..

[Primogen]

That's probably because Traviss' books were Travisstys (Oh BURN). Look at what she did to Scout, she had no respect for the rest of the universe. travesty

[Tommycat]

So what, you don't like it. I don't like Justin Beaver or Miley Cyrus. It does not mean that other people can't enjoy their music (although to be honest I'm not even 100% sure Justin Beaver is a musician). I know at least three kids that absolutely love Force Unleashed. What does that mean? Nothing, but just saying something did not meet your personal taste requirements only means one thing. YOU did not like it. Others are just as entitled to their opinion as you are and their opinion is more important to their person taste to them than your opinion, just as your opinion is more important to you.

 

You do know the opposite of loving something isn’t hating something? It is being indifferent towards it because it isn’t worth the effort to gripe about it.

 

Yeah. Opinions are like bottoms. We all have em, and they all stink(just ask my dog). If you don't like it, ignore it. I ignore the Vong, and the Ewoks series. It isn't something that I'm going to demand they change canon for.

[mimartin]

Yeah. Opinions are like bottoms. We all have em, and they all stink(just ask my dog).

That was what I was trying to say, but couldn't think of a nice way to put it so I would not have to ban or infract myself.

[Primogen]

Complicated questions provoke thought. Simple questions provoke more instinctual reactions.

[Tommycat]

That was what I was trying to say, but couldn't think of a nice way to put it so I would not have to ban or infract myself.

 

I had kids... I know how to say most of those old sayings in a G rated way.

 

 

Complicated questions provoke thought. Simple questions devolve into all out flame wars.

There, I fixed it for you

[mimartin]

If you have a problem with a post or posts please use the report button (the little yellow button below the users name and avatar). Other than the couple places where I've posted a warning or edited a post I have not seen anything that I thought violated the forum’s rules. That does not mean that there isn’t anything though. I have a tendency to be a little callous at times.

[VeniVidiVicous]

They always do that. Video games books and comics are always considered lesser canon than film and TV shows. It shouldn't have been a surprise.

 

Video games are low on the totem pole. Right above fan-fics.

 

And again, even though you don't like it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be canon. I mean if the Sun-King and the Season Scepter can be canon, then so be it. It doesn't mean I have to like that, or even reference it in future works(thank heavens there's no references to them in any other works...that I know of).

 

I have no idea who the Sun-King and Season Scepter are, are they in SW canon?

 

I see your point on a tv show trumping a book series, I suppose the only reason i'm a bit annoyed about is that I liked those books where I didn't like that tv show.

 

So what, you don't like it. I don't like Justin Beaver or Miley Cyrus. It does not mean that other people can't enjoy their music (although to be honest I'm not even 100% sure Justin Beaver is a musician). I know at least three kids that absolutely love Force Unleashed. What does that mean? Nothing, but just saying something did not meet your personal taste requirements only means one thing. YOU did not like it. Others are just as entitled to their opinion as you are and their opinion is more important to their person taste than your opinion, just as your opinion is more important to you.

 

You do know the opposite of loving something isn’t hating something? It is being indifferent towards it because it isn’t worth the effort to gripe about it.

 

While i respect what you're saying in that everyones entitled to like what they like regardless of what other people think i'm "griping" only because I happen to like SW in general it's just that a lot of directions they've taken recently have putting me off it a bit. I'm sympathizing with the OP you could say.

[Prime]

I do not dispute that some episodes are throwaways; they have no real implication into the overall Star Wars universe. That does not however mean they are all throwaways. Many of the episodes seem to grow the characters beyond the cardboard cutouts of the prequels.

Indeed. I think Anakin in particular has really been made a deeper, more mature, and sympathetic character than we get from the films. I think one way that the PT fails to a degree is that no one is really cheering for him, and so no one really feels the tragedy of his fall. Seeing him as a capable hero with humanity makes that arc much better. I think there is value in those sorts of stories for him and other characters that shouldn't be disregarded just because the taking of Muunilist only affected some supply lines somewhere.

 

At the end of the day, the PT era was never really about the Clone Wars. It is much more about how the characters were affected, the fall of Anakin and the Jedi, and the rise of Palpatine and the Empire. The Clone Wars was just the mechanism by which those things happened.

 

It's nitpicking, or cherry-picking maybe, because you are using the fact she gets it wrong once every 15 appearances (please don't nitpick this as well, focus on the main argument, i would hate to someone to go saying "Ha!!! by my count she gets it wrong every 11,5 appearances") as proof of her non sue-ness

I'm not trying to nitpick. And I'm certainly not trying to say that it is one time out of 15. I think it is substantially more than that, and that overall she is clearly shown to have a lot to learn.

 

But having a tied down Star wars series, honestly, it's not for me...That's the whole story, someone asked why people have problems with the thing, i think it was prime, and i obliged, i don't like it because it never goes anywhere and it's not even suppoused to go anywhere.

I do appreciate that you responded with an actual answer and not just "CW is dumb and for the kiddies" (not being sarcastic here), but I do think you are selling the show short in part for that reason.

 

Can you give me an example of canon she messed with? Can someone fill me in on what this Mary Stu/Gavin Stu thing is all about btw?

Mostly I'm thinking of LotF series and Boba Fett and the Mandalorians. When Jaina had to take on her Sith Lord brother, who did she go to get an edge? Boba and the Mando's of course! Boba has killed many Jedi over the years (wait what?) so he would know. Some of the later books of the series have every character, even those that shouldn't, be completely pro mandalorian and marvel in awe at their abilities. I actually stopped reading the series because of it all.

 

After saying we're going to forget your Republic Cammando series because we want to use the crap kids tv show as official canon.

But they haven't been forgotten, they just have to sort how canon is going to look after TCW. Whatever they can make fit they are going to fit. And this situation is happening to many authors and contributors, but they are not getting their panties in a bunch.

 

Yeah. Opinions are like bottoms. We all have em, and they all stink(just ask my dog). If you don't like it, ignore it. I ignore the Vong, and the Ewoks series. It isn't something that I'm going to demand they change canon for.

This view of things is refreshing.

 

While i respect what you're saying in that everyones entitled to like what they like regardless of what other people think i'm "griping" only because I happen to like SW in general it's just that a lot of directions they've taken recently have putting me off it a bit. I'm sympathizing with the OP you could say.

The older you get you will realize that some people are put off with every direction they take, and that has been happening forever. Do you remember the outrage when spaarti cloning was retconned?

[VeniVidiVicous]

Mostly I'm thinking of LotF series and Boba Fett and the Mandalorians. When Jaina had to take on her Sith Lord brother, who did she go to get an edge? Boba and the Mando's of course! Boba has killed many Jedi over the years (wait what?) so he would know. Some of the later books of the series have every character, even those that shouldn't, be completely pro mandalorian and marvel in awe at their abilities. I actually stopped reading the series because of it all.

 

Out of curiosity, is it the fact that certain characters "were in awe" (for lack of a better term) with the Mando's that bugs you or are you disputing Boba Fett having plenty of experience fighting/killing jedi (on a canon standpoint)??

Or is it possibly both things?

 

I read LotF and i'll admit I didn't percieve that part of it the same way you did. The way I perceived it was that Jaina came to the conclusion that she had to change her game plan if she was going to be able to stop her brother seeing as he'd be just as familiar with Jedi teachings as she would be but he had the benefit of force training outside of the Jedi Order. From her point of view at that time Boba Fett was the best person to help her achieve that. That's how I perceived it anyway.

 

But they haven't been forgotten, they just have to sort how canon is going to look after TCW. Whatever they can make fit they are going to fit. And this situation is happening to many authors and contributors, but they are not getting their panties in a bunch.

 

I thought she quit becase they were going to completely change the canon to most of the work she's done regarding her writing in the PT era?

Maybe other authors should be a bit vocal if they feel that other content is going to ruin their work? At least if they raise the issue than there can be a negotiation as opposed to different elements of the franchise pulling away from each other or cancelling other parts out.

 

The older you get you will realize that some people are put off with every direction they take, and that has been happening forever. Do you remember the outrage when spaarti cloning was retconned?

 

I'm not sure what you mean when you say spaarti cloning was retconned. What are you referring to exactly?

[Primogen]

Spaarti Clones have pretty much been retconned out of existence at this point.

 

Anyway, Traviss deserved what she got. She emasculated the Mandalorians, they went from being badass raiders that were the remnants of an Empire that had once threatened the Old Republic itself into being noble, heroic warriors, and Boba Fett got turned from a deadly and effective hunter into a bloody -family man-.

[mimartin]

The mando fans can’t gripe about canon being changed. Without George caving to fanboys Boba Fett would still be canonize as being an appetizer for the Sarlacc. Hell I still think of him that way. Was really confused seeing Boba Fett again while playing Dark Forces. To me Boba Fett will always be the Star Wars equivalent of a shrimp cocktail.

[mstr kenobi]

I think Anakin in particular has really been made a deeper, more mature, and sympathetic character than we get from the films. I think one way that the PT fails to a degree is that no one is really cheering for him, and so no one really feels the tragedy of his fall. Seeing him as a capable hero with humanity makes that arc much better.

 

I actually agree with this, for the first time we see Anakin as a hero and not a big jerk. They tried that in ROTS for like 2 mins... and right back to jerk, i don't have to tell you it didn't work.

 

At the end of the day, the PT era was never really about the Clone Wars. It is much more about how the characters were affected, the fall of Anakin and the Jedi, and the rise of Palpatine and the Empire. The Clone Wars was just the mechanism by which those things happened.

 

You make a strong point here, but i'm still a bit disappointed by how little war, there is in the TCW.

I just think that more major battles and less of the small side plots, would have made for better episodes.

 

Mimartin made a point that this is the way of the American tv shows, a whole lot of dancing around the issue, drop a bomb to end the season, but i've never been a big fan of this concept/strategy, most shows stretch out too long, characters become a caricature (not talking about TCW here just my hate for the concept), and plots that never get finished (that Rachel-Ross thing).

 

 

I do appreciate that you responded with an actual answer and not just "CW is dumb and for the kiddies" (not being sarcastic here), but I do think you are selling the show short in part for that reason.

 

Just a little explantion here, when i "name dropped" you i wasn't trying to point fingers on who is to blame for all the bickering that happened on this thread, i was just pointing out that i was giving my honest answer to your question and not trolling.

 

But anyway, your point is that the whole prequel era, including TCW, is about the characters, Anakin's fall, his relationship with Padmé, Obi-Wan... And Sidious schemes. Which is all true. (btw i just realized that the reason non fans think the prequels suck, might be the fact that everything is based around those not very likeable characters)

 

But, even though Anakin is finally a hero, which is good, and his relationship with Padmé is a lot less creepy (still very... meh, just a personal opinion), they also can't do a whole lot in this area, every major piece is already in place for ROTS.

Obi-Wan already made the jump from his AOTC persona (strict, bossy), to his ROTS persona (a lot more easy going)

Sidious still scheming.

Yoda is Yoda, can't be touched.

Dooku running the show from the other side but under direct orders from Sidious.

And Mace Windu is just an ass, why is he so cranky now?

 

IMO the prequel era should be done for the time being, the fall has been done and that is very little else to say, Anakin being a hero is cool, but ok, i saw him as the hero that he was always suppoused to have been now, can we do something else? It's very little to make me sit for how many seasons they want to make.

 

Unless they started showing a huge relentless war, then i could sit just by sheer awesome of it.

 

One extra thing, What's a spaarti clone? lol

 

The mando fans can’t gripe about canon being changed. Without George caving to fanboys Boba Fett would still be canonize as being an appetizer for the Sarlacc. Hell I still think of him that way. Was really confused seeing Boba Fett again while playing Dark Forces. To me Boba Fett will always be the Star Wars equivalent of a shrimp cocktail.

 

I had no knowledge of anything EU at the time and it was a big WTF? moment for me too.

[Liverandbacon]

The mando fans can’t gripe about canon being changed. Without George caving to fanboys Boba Fett would still be canonize as being an appetizer for the Sarlacc. Hell I still think of him that way. Was really confused seeing Boba Fett again while playing Dark Forces. To me Boba Fett will always be the Star Wars equivalent of a shrimp cocktail.

 

To be fair, it makes some sense that a heavily armed and armored guy could blow his way out of the Sarlacc. Personally I'm cool with that. As a kid, I always thought he was a pretty cool guy, and shouldn't have died that way. I also thought he was the last mandalorian or something. Little did I know, that apparently there was an entire planet full of tragic hero space warriors who everyone (even those who hated them) respected and feared, who could all take a powerful jedi in a one on one fight.

[Primogen]

How do the Mandalorians survive, I wonder? Can you sustain an entire planet on the income of mercenaries? If they have a homeworld, the homeworld must have a permanent population. And you can't have a Mandalorian farmer or trader, they're all warriors, right?

[Darth InSidious]

The warrior stuff is just what they do on the weekend. During the week, they're all management consultants. Search your feelings - you know it's true.

[Totenkopf]

How do the Mandalorians survive, I wonder? Can you sustain an entire planet on the income of mercenaries? If they have a homeworld, the homeworld must have a permanent population. And you can't have a Mandalorian farmer or trader, they're all warriors, right?

 

That's what slaves are for.

[Astor]

I read LotF and i'll admit I didn't percieve that part of it the same way you did. The way I perceived it was that Jaina came to the conclusion that she had to change her game plan if she was going to be able to stop her brother seeing as he'd be just as familiar with Jedi teachings as she would be but he had the benefit of force training outside of the Jedi Order. From her point of view at that time Boba Fett was the best person to help her achieve that. That's how I perceived it anyway.

 

It wouldn't have been half as bad it was only that.

 

I'm quoting myself here from the 'Overrated Garbage' thread, apologies for the length -

 

Mandalorians, or at least as Karen Traviss would have them, are unrivalled in every field. Their fighter craft are not only faster than an X-Wing, they’re clad in armour (or beskar’gam) that is impervious to everything. This same armour is used by their warriors, and is, unsurprisingly, lightsaber resistant.

 

Let’s take the Legacy of the Force book Revelations as an example.

 

They are also very, very scary. During the course of this book, Jaina Solo visits Mandalore, and it is noted that she is intimidated by them. Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi, a Jedi Knight who not only fought the Empire before the age of 10, a veteran of the Yuuzhan Vong War, Dark Nest crisis, and countless other struggle of galactic importance, is intimidated by a group of thugs (albeit well trained ones) who are drinking in a bar.

 

Yet, despite being the leader of Rogue Squadron, and by all accounts one of the best pilots of her time, Mandalorians are apparently better.

 

Just like they are constantly able to best her in combat.

 

"It was over in two seconds flat and he hadn't even used the blade... It was the first time she had been taken down in a saber fight of any kind in years."

 

One fight in this book has her unable to sense the movements of her Mandalorian opponent, again, perhaps unsurprisingly, flooring her instantly. Perhaps it was a one off, or perhaps the Mandalorian was secretly a Yuuzhan Vong. There’s no explanation as to how Mandalorians can’t be read by Jedi (or perhaps there is, so I’ll concede that point if that is the case).

 

Constantly, the Mandalorians beat her into a pulp, because, again, they’re superior to a Jedi in every way (that’s something I’ll discuss later, though).

 

Mirta shouldn't have been able to beat a Jedi's reaction time. But she did."

 

 

There is even a point when the elite Mandalorians manage to board Darth Caedus’ flagship, killing everything in their path (taking no casualties, thanks to their ubiquitous beskar’gam), and manage to corner and wound him. A Sith Lord. But they don’t kill him. They did, however, totally manage to wound him because they’re awesome.

 

Now, on second reading, it seems as if my main dispute is that the Mandalorians can beat Jaina at all. It isn't. I don't expect her to be invincible, but then again, neither should the Mandalorians. Traviss doesn't even try to make the fights seem fair.

 

And all of this is compounded by her rather obvious bias against the Jedi.

 

Again, apologies for length.

 

 

I see Vader as a tragic character who's been betrayed by everyone, and I can't help thinking of the Jedi as self-serving unelected elitist spoon-benders making whoopee on Republic taxpayers' credits. It's an iconoclastic journo world-view. Believe me, Order 66 was long overdue. I have a couple of Jedi that I don't want to shoot on sight, but they're my own creations, so I could make them a little humbler and more aware of the consequences they create for others.

 

Getting into Jedi heads was that much harder. But I swore I could get into the most repellent characters' heads and see them as they see themselves, so I had to. I still wouldn't trust the Jedi Council with my wallet, let alone with running my country, but you won't spot that in the books. I keep my spoonbenderist views to myself.

 

Except she didn’t. At every turn, Traviss seemingly does her best to vilify and demonise the Jedi, turning them into space Nazis, without offering any alternative viewpoint of them. They’re evil, end of story.

 

"I left the order because I couldn't stomach how we talked about compassion and then turned a blind eye to using human clones for our slave army... I did whatever I could to atone for the wrong the Jedi did to these men."

 

Of course, it’s not like the Mandalorians have ever kept slaves, is it? Never mind the fact that the Jedi had nothing to do with the creation of the Clones.

 

And that is just one of the many lectures by an ex-Jedi turned Mandalorian on how evil the Jedi really are. Yet not once is the Jedi he is lecturing allowed to defend herself. No, she just stands there, and either has no answer, or agrees with everything he says. Even the Jedi characters in her books, her own creations, believe they are evil. They’re evil, end of story.

 

So much of the three LotF books written by Traviss is taken up by pure hatred (apart from when it’s taken up by guff about Mandalorians) towards the Jedi, and again, no alternative viewpoint is given. They’re evil, end of story.

 

At one point, Traviss even accused fans of the Jedi of being as bad as neo-Nazis (and before you ask for proof, it's here). Which brings me to my next point.

 

I thought she quit becase they were going to completely change the canon to most of the work she's done regarding her writing in the PT era?

 

Again, apologies for length, and possible irrelevance, but I think I covered some of that below -

 

5 – Karen Traviss is not a nice person

 

Rather like the fans she has christened Fandalorians, Ms. Traviss seemed to have a hard time accepting any criticism of her works, even going so far as to name them ‘Talifans’. But I suppose that's alright, they are Jedi fans, after all, so they’re evil, end of story.

 

Let’s look at the word that’s based on – Taliban. The Taliban are an extremist organisation which is currently engaged in acts of terrorism across Afghanistan and Pakistan. Apparently, the criticism levelled at her by Star Wars fans is so hurtful that it warrants a name that evokes a Terrorist organisation.

 

That’s not even mentioning her accusations that fans were sexist when they said she hadn’t researched the topic well enough (which is true enough, she proudly claimed that she had never read any Star Wars material, and wouldn't), or any of the other insults she hurled at fans who offered valid criticisms (again, insults that have been deleted).

 

And, let’s not forget her exit from the Star Wars franchise. She left because she was unhappy with the direction the Clone Wars TV series was taking with numerous things, and that it made some of her work irrelevant (which has been proven not to be case in some areas). I find it hypocritical that she should leave over retconning (which is a laughable claim - she say herself she left over 'contractual' issues - i.e. money), when she was responsible for many retcons, completely ignoring many of the early sources of information concerning Mandalorians (going as far back as the novelisation of The Empire Strikes Back, for instance). The way she behaved was as if she had invented the Mandalorians from the ground up. She didn’t, and to claim so is laughable. She certainly invented them in their current warriors-with-a-heart-of-gold-and-awesome-armour guise, but that was only through ignorance of previously established sources.

 

To add insult to injury, she left before she could finish her Republic Commando series. If, as she has often claimed, she really cared about the series and its fans, surely she would’ve at least seen that through? Unfortunately, throwing her toys out of the pram was more important.

 

Her work has not been completely retconned. The Mandalorians she created still exist - they are the 'True Mandalorians'. I don't see why that's so hard for most of her fans to understand or accept. The Star Wars universe is plenty big enough for there to be different clans of Mandalorians, but it seems that, to her fans, at least, unless they're wearing three inch thick plot armour and spouting out badly formed words, they're not 'proper' Mandalorians.

 

I apologise for the length, and possible tone of this post - I could have linked to my original post, but that would have included arguments that aren't relevant to this discussion. I'm not trying to beat you into submission that our viewpoint is the right one, just trying to elaborate the main grievances that some of us have when it comes to Karen Traviss and her works.

 

I don't have a problem with people liking her books, and it's great that they got you back into Star Wars again. It's simply that some of the things she's done, or introduced to Star Wars are completely against the grain. And, just like many of her fans would like to see TCW and their sect of the Mandalorians retconned, there are those of us who would rather see Traviss' work either retconned or toned down.

 

But it's not all completely lost if you're a fan of Ms. Traviss - I hear she's writing Gears of War 3, and from what I hear, her books based on GoW are just as good.

 

To be fair, it makes some sense that a heavily armed and armored guy could blow his way out of the Sarlacc.

 

Perhaps, but he shouldn't have survived the second time he fell into the bloody thing.

 

How do the Mandalorians survive, I wonder? Can you sustain an entire planet on the income of mercenaries? If they have a homeworld, the homeworld must have a permanent population. And you can't have a Mandalorian farmer or trader, they're all warriors, right?

 

Farming. Seriously. When they're not off laying waste to enemies for the highest bidder, they're farming.