The Doctor Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Alright, this thread was inspired by a discussion - actually, a heated argument - I participated in on another forum. What are your views on evolution? And by that I mean: Do you believe that mankind evolved from a lower form of life millions of years ago, or do you believe in creationism alone? I have a mixed view - I believe in both evolution and creationism. But I don't believe in the Bible's version of it. I view most of the Old Testament - with the exception of the Books of Moses - as metaphorical, Genesis in particular. I believe that God created mankind in a primitive form - nothing like what we look like today. Even more primitive than the Ramapithecenes. I view the line "God created man in his own image" differently than anyone else I know: God did not create man in the image of himself. I think it's the height of arrogance to assume that we could be even remotely similar to God. I believe this line means that Man was created with his own image - set apart from the other creatures, sort of as God's 'favourites' (for lack of a better expression). He created us with the intention of allowing us to understand the whole of his creation - something he didn't let anything else on this planet do. I also believe that he gave all life on the planet the ability to adapt and change in order to survive. Kind of like a built in 'there-you're-created-now-you're-on-your-own' device. He created DNA to give us a means of change, and sent us on our way to understanding his creation. In order to do this, of course, we had to survive long enough. Hence why He gave us the ability to evolve beyond our current state. Those are my views on the subject. What do others think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samnmax221 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Evolution and creationism cannot exist side by side in my frame of mind, of course I also don't believe in any supernatural power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I see I have a new thread to keep an eye on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samnmax221 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I see I have a new thread to keep an eye on. Before it evolves into pointless namecalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick5770 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Well, As a firm Christian, I believe that God Created us, and that eventually he will come back for us. My main reason for discrediting evoloution is I find it easier to believe the I was created by an all powerful being, than by chance and a volcanoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davinq Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I am a firm believer in the efforts made to coincide science with religion. So yeah, I concur with The Doctor. DQK out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Devon Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 As an atheist, it would be inconsistent beyond belief if I believed in creationism. But to look at it from the religious point of view, why not think that God created man and used evolution as his tool? That would explain the scientific evidence that shows we're descended from apes. But we are obviously not godly creatures, and it is claimed that God is perfect in everything he does. To create an imperfect thing is not a perfect act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davinq Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 But we are obviously not godly creatures, and it is claimed that God is perfect in everything he does. To create an imperfect thing is not a perfect act. That has got to be the most confusing paradox I have ever read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Devon Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 That has got to be the most confusing paradox I have ever read. How is creating an imperfect thing a perfect act? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountVerilucus Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I'm with science and evolution. I believe in god, but I think they just made that stuff up because they had no way of explaining it back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Do we need another thread like this one? Frankly, this has been debated to death and no one will give up his side, even when all evidence points to it being wrong. Evolution is proven. There is enough evidence to prove it. Creation is unproven, based on faith. You have to believe in it without any evidence. The debate is more about origins, whether God created us or we just appeared. A scientist, whose name I have forgotten, has called it absurd. Meaning there's no origin. Both theories, God creator and the Big Bang, have one big question: What happened before? So if God created man, who created God? God cannot just appear. The same about the Big Bang. What existed before it? Masses of gas? What made those masses of gas? Basically, what my scientist is saying, is that looking for the moment 0 in time is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 How is creating an imperfect thing a perfect act? How do you know it's imperfect? We don't know the mind of the designer well enough to determine whether some things really are as imperfect as they seem on initial inspection. God may have had other things in mind when designing something, and what looks like an imperfection may actually be a design advantage in the long run. Some things may look like they're imperfect on cursory examination, but on further research turn out to be designed in the best way after all. For instance, some think the human retina is imperfectly designed because the actual receptors are located behind 8 other layers of cells/membranes that might affect how the light is perceived by these receptors. After further study, however, the way it's set up puts the receptors closest to the blood supply, and since the receptors need a lot of oxygen, they need to be close to the blood supply. The cell layers in front of the receptors are transparent to visible light, but they also help block out some of the ultraviolet light that could damage the receptors. There are plenty of different designs in the human body that we don't currently understand, but which we might comprehend when we advance physiology knowledge. We still know so little about the human body that we can't begin to effectively question design. 100 years ago, the only medication we had in our pharmacy was aspirin. The physiologists who got the Nobel prize in visual physiology in '85 got it for learning how animals see the orientation of 1 single line. Our knowledge is in its infancy. If we fully understood human anatomy and physiology, then we might be able to discuss imperfections. Until that point, however, we should try to learn more about how it works. @LIAYD--things that have a beginning had to have a cause. Since the universe had a beginning, it had a cause. If God had a beginning, then God would have to have a cause. However, since God didn't have a beginning, God does not need to have a cause. That being said, if I can't even begin to fully comprehend embryology and biochemistry, how the heck can I fully understand God? I can't. Here's my view in a nutshell--God made the laws of physics, chemistry, and other sciences that govern this particular planet and universe. I think God used those same laws to create the world and everything in it, so I don't have an issue with God guiding evolution along. The only point of difference is how that very first living thing was formed, and I think God had to have a hand in that. A single functioning cell is incredibly complex, and I think it's far too complex to have happened by chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Devon Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 How do you know it's imperfect? Several instances from the Bible that prove our perfection are how Adam and Even displeased God, and were cast from the garden as a result. There is also how He was displeased at building a tower high enough to touch the heavens, and also how He grew so disgusted at everything He made that He flooded the planet. But since the Bible isn't t he best source of information in my opinion, other examples are how we pollute and poison our planet, while also being able kill off 2% of our population with direct intent in six years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Prove? What is this proof? Science is no proof of anything. Science is a collection of *evidence* based on our perceptions. If a blind man lives alone on an island all his life, how will he know that he is blind? Did you not read Jae's post? I believe in intelligent design through evolution. It allows for faith *and* reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I believe in intelligent design through evolution. It allows for faith *and* reason. More and more, I'm seeing this as a distinct possibility. ED: I gather that mankind was created perfect; not omnipotent, but still perfect (blameless) on its level of existence. It was in disobeying God that mankind became imperfect. Why this happened, I don't know except that mankind is stupid and ignorant while Satan is brilliant and wise. Mankind is to blame for its fall and that is why it has suffered by its own hand ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbieZ Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I find it hard to believe in god for alot of reasons, personal mainly. Because of this, i always understand the science of evolution and have difficulty trying to understand why people credit evolution to a man described in a book who hasn't been physically proven to exist. Bearing in mind, i personally believe that a religeon based on old writings and beliefs that have been twisted so much in time is just wrong. Who is to say that with wars happening in the future and new powers coming into affect that Star Wars would'nt be seen as a story of "what happened" and moreover, how different it would be having been twisted with time. Before i start to accrue personal attacks, i'm not bashing the people that have faith. Faith in something is great whatever the faith may be placed on. We all have faith in something or someone which i believe is something we need. Emperor Devon mentioned before that "Adam and Eve displeased God, and were cast from the garden as a result. There is also how He was displeased at building a tower high enough to touch the heavens, and also how He grew so disgusted at everything He made that He flooded the planet." For me, i have such a problem believing that the creation of the earth and evolution is governed by something that sounds like an excellent cartoon. I believe in the facts, and as much as i would love it if science and religion can find a way to co-exist, the way we are today. It can't. Because only if we ALL followed a singular purpose and a single path can we truly all co-exist. People have tried this before and it ended in Genocide, forced relocation and death tolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace MacLeod Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=169094 Deja vu all over again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I find it hard to believe in god for alot of reasons, personal mainly. Because of this, i always understand the science of evolution and have difficulty trying to understand why people credit evolution to a man described in a book who hasn't been physically proven to exist. Bearing in mind, i personally believe that a religeon based on old writings and beliefs that have been twisted so much in time is just wrong. Who is to say that with wars happening in the future and new powers coming into affect that Star Wars would'nt be seen as a story of "what happened" and moreover, how different it would be having been twisted with time. Archaeological evidence would flatly contradict it, for one thing. Before i start to accrue personal attacks, i'm not bashing the people that have faith. Faith in something is great whatever the faith may be placed on. We all have faith in something or someone which i believe is something we need. Emperor Devon mentioned before that "Adam and Eve displeased God, and were cast from the garden as a result. There is also how He was displeased at building a tower high enough to touch the heavens, and also how He grew so disgusted at everything He made that He flooded the planet." For me, i have such a problem believing that the creation of the earth and evolution is governed by something that sounds like an excellent cartoon. I believe in the facts, and as much as i would love it if science and religion can find a way to co-exist, the way we are today. It can't. Because only if we ALL followed a singular purpose and a single path can we truly all co-exist. People have tried this before and it ended in Genocide, forced relocation and death tolls. What facts? There are no facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMaster12 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 In response to the original question, I am a Christian and believe that God created the world in seven days. What some people tend to overlook is that the Bible specifically says at one point that a day is but a thousand years and a thousand years is but a day in heaven. Based on the fossil record we can point out when the Age of fishes came and when the reptiles emerged. Heck we know that humans have only been on this Earth for about 30,000 years. The animals came a long time before that. As to evolution itself, it is what Darwin called it when he wrote the Origin of the Species: natural selection. No I don't mean survival of the fittest. It is differential reproductive success and usually assumes that a population of animals has an equal opportunity to reproduce. The reason we get the many species we have today are factors like reproductive isolation, natural disasters of the females prefer the wierd looking male as opposed to the normal male. I am not touching on the bipedal apes even though I have gone through three years of Homo erectus and Homo habilus and the Australopithecines. I have looked at the skeletal structures and yes there is evidence of bipedalism. As to the ape like appearance, that is hard to explain. I just tend to think that it was God's idea of a joke. And what of the Neandertals? They look like hefty humans with them powerful skeletal structurs and we have the evidence that they liked to tackle their food to kill it due to the 'bronco busting' injuries found. That is my take on things. Perhaps I don't go into it because I know that it is still a hotbed of discussion. That doesn't mean I pretend it doesn't exist because it does. We have science, which by the way disproves rather than proves. We can't go through life pretending something doesn't exist because in a sense we can get left behind. Because only if we ALL followed a singular purpose and a single path can we truly all co-exist. People have tried this before and it ended in Genocide, forced relocation and death tolls. That my friend is what the Antichrist will try to do during Tribulation. He will unite the world under one banner, one religion that will eventually worship him. He will persecute the followers in Christ and execute them for not taking his mark. Some people say that he is already here but I'll tell you one thing, this won't happen under Israel has undergone a period of peace and she will be attacked by Syria, Russia and Ethiopia. That is all from the prophets and Revelation. Yes it is from the Bible, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negative Sun Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 There will never be peace in the Middle-East I don't think there is a God, there's too much sh*t going on before I ever believe in that...I believe we give our own purpose to life, and every religion is just another take on this, I believe there should be as many religions as there are individuals, but people are lazy sheep... It's easier to take something that already exists and believe in it than actually thinking about it for yourself and try to find your own reason to this life...What if the Bible had never been written? This world would be a lot different...better or worse, I don't know... Belief in God has done just as much harm as it has done good, many people have died in the name of God in every religion, while that religion usually preaches peace and tolerance... People just need to open their eyes and actually be the superior human beings we pretend to be, because right now, and I think forever, we will never be better than animals, because conflict is always the center of our existance and I think it will be the end of us, sooner or later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaelastraz Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 @ Jedi Master12 I prefer to believe, that humans have their life entirely in their own hands. @Negative_Sun: You have a point. There was someone before you, who said something similar. Karl Marx. As far as evolution vs creationism is concerned... I do believe in god (i'm a christ...not too enthusiastic though). And I believe that god created the universe. And god might even have created the first living being. Or forseen that it will develop over time, just as I think god planned. But I really do not believe in Adam and Eva. I'm don't know very much about what is written in the Bible, but I believe Adam and Eva would be no older than 100.000 years? Or was it 10.000? Anyway, there is proof that humans or human like beings existed before that. Another argument against Adam and Eva: How can 2 Humans possibly create an entire civilisation. Assuming they did not reach the age of 1000. Evolution may not be proven entirely, but creationism is not proven at all. To my knowledge, there is not the slightest bit of information except what religion tells us, that indicates Adam and Eva existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negative Sun Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 @Negative_Sun: You have a point. There was someone before you, who said something similar. Karl Marx. Marx had it right though...But only in theory can we obtain perfection, the fact that we are basically animals will always hold us back, argue all you want but it's the truth, there will never be a peaceful world society because it is in our nature to crave conflict, it's an animal instinct, survival of the fittest, call it what you want... Marx' theory on communism is the perfect society, but that would: 1) Be utterly boring to eternity 2) Never work since everyone is different 3) Conflict with all the different religions So practically, it will never work, sadly, the Western ideal of capitalism will always prevail because it is the closest thing to human nature, so it's the only society that will always exist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavlos Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 How do you know it's imperfect? We don't know the mind of the designer well enough to determine whether some things really are as imperfect as they seem on initial inspection. God may have had other things in mind when designing something, and what looks like an imperfection may actually be a design advantage in the long run. I don't really see how such a bloody minded people as mankind can possibly be conceived as being a design advantage to the god of love and kindness. Shakespeare's best play, Hamlet, sums this up quite nicely: "What a piece of work is man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving, how express and admirable in action, how like an angel in apprehension, how like a god: the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals. And yet to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me; no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so." No offence, but to create such a thing as Man and claim it to be perfection is obviously disturbed in some way, shape, or form. Maybe the form of man is perfection to a creator but not the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Varen Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I believe that we evolved from apes from millions of years ago. It is proved, thanks to science and we still have our old ape ways, when you look at it. Religion on the other hand hasn't been proved. There hasn't been proof of Adam and Eve from all those years ago. Off-Topic: Religion is pointless, no offense. Most wars have been started because of Religion. Also if there was such a thing as God, there would be no disasters, unless if he liked people getting blown up in planes and poor people dying in Africa. Going Off-Topic now. My views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbieZ Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 What facts? There are no facts. As in Science-facts. Okay il put it another way. I think the Earth is round because of the rotation of the planet not because of a glowing guy dressed in white robes who was bored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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