Anakin vs. Revan

[TKA-001]

In KOTOR 1, it is stated that they (Sith fleet/Star Forge) had something built into them which made them immune to the field.

Who says this and where?

 

The Star Forge was able to work for about 26,000 years without draining the sun completely. I don't think producing a huge number of droids/ships would eat the sun.

The Star Forge was not drawing from the Sun for 26,000 years. Nobody was controlling it for 26,000 years; it was just sitting there.

[Endorenna]

Who says this and where?

 

I believe it was Carth just after the Ebon Hawk crashed on the Unknown World. He said something about the Sith fighters not getting pulled down, so they had to have an immunity to the field. Right alongside it, he said that Revan needed to get the field down before the Republic Fleet got there, or they'd be pulled down, too.

 

Ah, there's another point! When the Death Star got within firing range on the Star Forge (if it got that far), it would get shut down by the field and smash into the Unknown World, along with whatever fleet it brought with it.

 

 

The Star Forge was not drawing from the Sun for 26,000 years. Nobody was controlling it for 26,000 years; it was just sitting there.

 

Good point. However, the Rakata managed to make enough droids/ships/etc. to conquer the galaxy. Revan has several million troops, according to the arms dealer on Korriban. The Rakatan planet isn't very big. They probably had no more people than Revan did. They still beat everyone.

[TKA-001]

Ah, there's another point! When the Death Star got within firing range on the Star Forge (if it got that far), it would get shut down by the field and smash into the Unknown World, along with whatever fleet it brought with it.

That's only speculation. Who's to say that the Death Star would definitely be taken down by it? The thing's pretty freaking huge and we know next to nothing about how the field works, anyway.

 

Aside from that, what range does the Death Star's superlaser have? It might not even need to go through this field thing to get within range of whatever it wants to blow up.

 

However, the Rakata managed to make enough droids/ships/etc. to conquer the galaxy.

Conquer the galaxy? The Infinite Empire controlled only about 500 planets at its height. That's pretty small compared to the Republic as of TPM.

 

Revan has several million troops, according to the arms dealer on Korriban.

There's no way the army of a major galactic power at that point in time could be so ridiculously small.

 

They still beat everyone.

The significance of that statement depends on whether or not the Rakatans had any enemies that could pose a legitimate military threat. As far as I know, there is no evidence of this.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Conquer the galaxy? The Infinite Empire controlled only about 500 planets at its height. That's pretty small compared to the Republic as of TPM.

The Republic didn't control them, on the biblical meaning of the word, not as an empire does.

[Corinthian]

The Republic was really more of a loose confederacy. But that's not really relevant. A million soldiers is JACK SQUAT in a galaxy. The Galaxy has some four hundred billion stars, 1/2 of which were habitable by some kind of life, 10% of which had life, and 1/1000 of those developed sentient life. So that's twenty million different sentient species. If we assume a huge low and and have an average of one million individuals for every race, a fairly ridiculously low number, that means we have twenty trillion sentient individuals in the galaxy. Assuming that 1% of those were capable of fighting in one way or another, that means that Revan's invincible star forge army of a few million is facing off against an army 200 billion strong.

 

Hosed?

[Endorenna]

That's only speculation. Who's to say that the Death Star would definitely be taken down by it? The thing's pretty freaking huge and we know next to nothing about how the field works, anyway.

 

Aside from that, what range does the Death Star's superlaser have? It might not even need to go through this field thing to get within range of whatever it wants to blow up.

 

You're right, we don't know what the Death Star's range is. Chances are, it would have to go to through the field. Chances are, it would be shut down. It would then crash into the Rakatan planet and--my word, I don't even want to think about the effect THAT would have on the system and/or the Star Forge Star! Might even throw something into the star that would make the Star Forge short-circuit.

 

 

Conquer the galaxy? The Infinite Empire controlled only about 500 planets at its height. That's pretty small compared to the Republic as of TPM.

 

Only 500? Hmm, that I don't remember. Of course, I haven't played through the Unknown World lately, so you're probably right. Even so, that doesn't mean that the Star Forge was incapable of making an army to conquer the galaxy. Remember that Malak was beatin' up on the Republic pretty dang good in K1 with the Star Forge's resources.

 

 

There's no way the army of a major galactic power at that point in time could be so ridiculously small.

 

I wasn't saying it was. I was quoting the arms dealer. Revan probably had several hundred million squads of troops, what with all the planets he conquered.

 

One other thing to remember is that the Mandalorians had conquered a great deal of the galaxy themselves. They weren't exactly numbering in the several billion number either! How did they do it? Strategy. How did Revan defeat them? Strategy. With the Star Forge and strategy, Revan could destroy the Death Star, even without the stupid Rakatan field.

 

BTW, don't you think Revan could slip a few spies into the Empire and find out all the weaknesses of the Death Star, just like the Rebels did? He'd know every joint on that thing. If need be, he could sneak in there (out of his usual garb, of course), and turn off the shields, just like Obi-wan did to the tractor beams. Then he'd steal a TIE and scoot outta there!

[TKA-001]

Chances are, it would have to go to through the field.

You can't say that unless you know the thing's maximum range.

 

One other thing to remember is that the Mandalorians had conquered a great deal of the galaxy themselves. They weren't exactly numbering in the several billion number either!

Since when weren't they?

 

BTW, don't you think Revan could slip a few spies into the Empire and find out all the weaknesses of the Death Star, just like the Rebels did? He'd know every joint on that thing. If need be, he could sneak in there (out of his usual garb, of course), and turn off the shields, just like Obi-wan did to the tractor beams. Then he'd steal a TIE and scoot outta there!

Sure, it's possible, but lots of things are possible (like Revan being discovered and subsequently captured or killed). On the other side of the coin, the repulsor thingy that protects the Star Forge could probably be disabled by the Empire in the same manner that Revan and his/her buddies did. Or maybe they would fail. At this point, however, we're getting so deep into speculatory interpretations (among other things) that following this line any further is impossible before we find ourselves writing KOTOR time travel fan fiction.

[Corinthian]

The Republic was already crippled by a significant percentage of it's fleet disappearing after the end of the Mandalorian War. (It doesn't make sense to refer to it as the Mandalorian Wars, since there is no reason to believe that peace or an armistice was ever declared and broken between the beginning and the aftermath of Malachor V.) Besides, the Star Forge is probably a great shipyard and would give anybody a nice edge, but the ships it builds are four thousand years out of date with Imperial Warships and don't seem to be powerful enough to take on the Republic warships of the day casually.

[The Betrayer]

the ships it builds are four thousand years out of date with Imperial Warships and don't seem to be powerful enough to take on the Republic warships of the day casually.

They may not be powerful enough (I strongly doubt that) but they can outnumber the Empire's fleet. The Star Forge just keeps getting faster at producing ships (as Saul Karath frequently says) and can easily outnumber the Empire.

[Corinthian]

Outnumber them with ships that are, what, a quarter of the size of an ISD (Of which the Empire has 25,000, not counting Victory-class, Venator-class, Executor-class, Vengeance-Class, and the various other classes of Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers.), with out of date shields, weapon systems, and gravity well generators that would be useless against the massively superior hyperdrives of the Galactic Empire. Besides, all it would take is the Empire locating the Star Forge (Hardly an impossibility) and hitting hit from ultra-long range with the Death Star.

 

Besides, you can't create an infinite fleet without an infinite amount of crew and fuel, both of which require time to acquire.

[The Betrayer]

Outnumber them with ships that are, what, a quarter of the size of an ISD

Sith Interdictors are 600 meters long, while ISD's are 1600 meters long.

Also, Sith Centurion-class destroyers are 1200 meters long.

Not exactly a quarter.

[Corinthian]

Sith Centurion-class destroyers have never been seen to be constructed by the Star Forge. And when you also consider how much wider and taller the ISD is, my numbers are probably still accurate.

 

At any rate, size doesn't really matter. The fact is that the Imperial Navy is superior in every way.

[Darth Hord]

They may not be powerful enough (I strongly doubt that) but they can outnumber the Empire's fleet. The Star Forge just keeps getting faster at producing ships (as Saul Karath frequently says) and can easily outnumber the Empire.

 

They don't have the manpower for all those ships nor do they use droids like the CIS do so an infinite fleet would be pretty useless if you are heavily under crewed or if some of the ships just float in space.

[Endorenna]

@Corinthian

As we have never actually seen them in battle, I don't think we can really say.

 

This argument about the Star Forge and Revan vs. the Death Star and Anakin seems to be going in circles, at least to me. I suggest we, to fall back on the over-used term, 'agree to disagree'.

[Corinthian]

Maybe, but this is entertaining.

 

If Interdictor-Class vessels were really powerful enough to tangle with an ISD, they would have been used during the Galactic Civil War. A lot. But, he-hey, we've never seen ANY of them outside of KotoR. Considering the Star Forge is supposed to be able to build an infinite fleet in a finite amount of time by the typical argument, why aren't there bazillions of these things floating around in space, waiting for the Rebels or the CIS or the Republic to commandeer 'em?

[Thanatos9t]

If Interdictor-Class vessels were really powerful enough to tangle with an ISD, they would have been used during the Galactic Civil War. A lot. But, he-hey, we've never seen ANY of them outside of KotoR. Considering the Star Forge is supposed to be able to build an infinite fleet in a finite amount of time by the typical argument, why aren't there bazillions of these things floating around in space

 

Because after KotoR either the Star Forge was destroyed by the Republic or the the Star Forge fell dormant after Revan left for the unknown region of space and no one else was able to use it.

 

Malak didn't exactly use the Star Forge to produce massive amounts of ships either prefering to smash his enemies rather than blast them to dust (except Revan apparently) and Revan limited his/her time using it to avoid becoming controlled by it like the Rakatans so I think Revan used it when s/he needed to but did not rely solely on it.

 

Also I think that the later Star Destroyers and other cruisers were based on the design of the Interdictor Class.

[Nedak]

Secret Apprentice would pwn them all

[Corinthian]

So? The Interdictor Class was a Republic vessel before the Mandalorian Wars. Presumably, they were either too expensive or too ineffective to be worthwhile to continue to build. If that wasn't the case.

 

Why wouldn't Malak? You yourself said he liked to smash his enemies. What better way to do that than with overwhelming numbers? I'll tell you why. Because he didn't have the resources. He didn't have the fuel, and he didn't have the crew. That's why.

 

And it's pretty obvious that the Star Destroyers weren't based on Interdictors. Exhibit One, their design. Star Destroyers are a fairly standard Dagger shape.

 

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/f0/ISD.jpg

 

The Leviathan, on the other hand, is a very odd design. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/b/b0/Kotor_screen098.jpg

 

Now, there are some design similarities, but the differences are pretty obvious.

 

More importantly, it is effectively impossible for the Star Destroyer designs to be based off of the design of the Interdictors. The Republic Navy was in a period of effective non-existence prior to the Clone Wars (See Outbound Flight, for example), and it's pretty obvious that the original Star Destroyer design was based off of the Acclamators.

 

Besides, the Star Destroyer is a pretty obvious design, the dagger shape allowing for maximum firepower while exposing a limited profile.

 

And even if it were based off the Interdictors, so what? That doesn't change the fact that the Sith crap is FOUR THOUSAND YEARS OUT OF DATE. Do you realize that if it were a modern army facing an army four thousand years out of date, they'd be lucky if they were tribals with bronze spears?

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

The Star Forge was not drawing from the Sun for 26,000 years. Nobody was controlling it for 26,000 years; it was just sitting there.

what about ajunta pall and the ancient sithies? the "secret" of his? that was only known to the dark lords? and the star map that was in naga sadow's tomb? so yeah.

 

Aside from that, what range does the Death Star's superlaser have? It might not even need to go through this field thing to get within range of whatever it wants to blow up.

that looks close enough to get pulled in.

and the imps fleet would be pulled in too. remember the capitol ship on lehon's beach.

and here: the hawk's systems have already been messed up by the field before this distance.

[TKA-001]

Also, Sith Centurion-class destroyers are 1200 meters long.

Not exactly a quarter.

How big the Sith vessels were is kind of a moot point, since their biggest and strongest capital ship's (Centurion-class) firepower is outnumbered at least a dozen times over by an ISD.

 

what about ajunta pall and the ancient sithies? the "secret" of his? that was only known to the dark lords? and the star map that was in naga sadow's tomb? so yeah.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, since you phrased it so poorly, so I'll just have to guess.

 

Α. There is no evidence that Pall was referring to the Star Forge, or that any Sith used it before Revan and Malak.

Β. There is in fact evidence against the idea that he was referring to it, simply the fact that canon mentions the conflict that he and his comrades fought in (the Hundred-Year Darkness) ended with them being severely outnumbered.

Γ. Even if it did have anything to do with the ancient Sith, what does it matter? Who cares?

 

that looks close enough to get pulled in.

and the imps fleet would be pulled in too. remember the capitol ship on lehon's beach.

and here: the hawk's systems have already been messed up by the field before this distance.

If you could use a source that actually cares about technical accuracy (which Empire at War is not), you might have something to go on here.

[Thanatos9t]

So? The Interdictor Class was a Republic vessel before the Mandalorian Wars. Presumably, they were either too expensive or too ineffective to be worthwhile to continue to build. If that wasn't the case.

Here is an bit from the wookieepedia on the Interdictor Class:

"The most notable Interdictor-class Cruiser was the Leviathan, a Galactic Republic warship that was said to be the only vessel in the class that came out of the shipyards in a space-worthy state."

 

Yeah so they were too difficult to build at the Republic's Ship yards.

 

And even if it were based off the Interdictors, so what? That doesn't change the fact that the Sith crap is FOUR THOUSAND YEARS OUT OF DATE. Do you realize that if it were a modern army facing an army four thousand years out of date, they'd be lucky if they were tribals with bronze spears?

That argument doesn't really work considering our Civilisation as a whole hasn't been technologically advanced for that period of time if you look at the level of technology in the Galactic Republic and the Old Republic there is actually very little in way of progression if you look at the timeline as a whole of the Galactic Republic.

Here

"The Republic was born with the signing of the Galactic Constitution c. 25,000 BBY"

So FOUR THOUSAND YEARS (as you put it) is not a long time considering the age of the Republic as a whole.

 

If anything there was no need to pursue new technology since after the Battle of Ruusan 1002-1000 BBY the Republic decommissioned much of its military, retaining a small force only for security purposes which lead to the need for the Clone army.

[Corinthian]

Thanatos, that argument would hold water if we were talking about Warhammer 40K. We aren't.

 

New technology obviously was pursued, given the fact that new ship designs continued to roll out of shipyards, such as Rendili Stardrive's Dreadnought Heavy Cruiser. The idea that study of technology relating to the military halted abruptly after the Battle of Ruusan is completely ludicrous. That may have been the last Galactic War before the Clone Wars started, but regional conflicts continued.

 

Can you imagine? The Supreme Chancellor smiles at the end of the Battle of Ruusan, and as his first order of business now that peace has come, he outlaws all scientists? It doesn't work that way.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, since you phrased it so poorly, so I'll just have to guess.

yeah i suppose that was pretty poorly put...

Α. There is no evidence that Pall was referring to the Star Forge, or that any Sith used it before Revan and Malak.

come on, a star map. in sadow's tomb! that looks like pretty strong evidence to me.

i meant to say that the secret of pall's was the star forge. but then, that can be taken as the true sith.

Γ. Even if it did have anything to do with the ancient Sith, what does it matter? Who cares?

my post was in response to you saying

The Star Forge was not drawing from the Sun for 26,000 years. Nobody was controlling it for 26,000 years; it was just sitting there.

i know that the star forge wasnt used for a while, but it would be less than 26,000 years. according to what we see in k1. (star map in sadow's tomb)

 

this is earth and its distance from the sun. [roughly 150 million (150,000,000,000) km from the sun.]

the death star's range is roughly one third that.( http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds/#range)

at the scale of the pic, i cant figure if that is close enough (in relation to what we've seen in kotor) for the shield to work on the death star if it wanted to fire on the star forge. it looks as if it is...

[Astor]

That may have been the last Galactic War before the Clone Wars started, but regional conflicts continued.[/Quote]

 

Stark Hyperspace War, anyone?

[Corinthian]

Precisely.

 

The disruption field is irrelevant. The Star Forge is in visual range before the Ebon Hawk is disabled and forced to crash-land on Lehon. More than close enough for a long-distance shot with the Death Star with the stated maximum range.

 

And even if we say that something like that CAN'T be done for some reason, all that would need to be done is send a few Divisions of Imperial Army and Stormtroopers to purge Lehon, blow a hole in the side of the Temple of the Ancients and bypass that pesky energy field, mow down everything inside through sheer volume of blaster fire, climb to the top, and shut down that stupid energy field.