Darth333 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Thats is a big problem with Kavar's Corner. No individual in these forums should be put into a position where thay have to defend their country. That is not what this entertainment forums is about. It splinters the visitors into groups. If I have a conversation with fellow US citizens about high taxes, I shouldn't have to defend off critisism from a foreign visitor. Nor, should a foriegn visitor be put into a postion where they are forced to put up with the banter. We shouldn't have Americans versus Russians versus Italians versus etc... We also shouldn't have Christians versus Islams versus Budha versus etc... Why see it like that (x vs y) ? I have always enjoyed discussing politics and other topics with people from all around the world. It is a good way to exchange ideas and see how things are done elsewhere and learn about others' perspectives on various topics, including my own country...it can be seen as a way to "Bring People Together" too. Besides, no one is forced to read a specific topic or to even come to Kavar. It's there for those members of the community who want to use it...it happens that some of them are interested in discussing topics like the ones that are discussed in Kavar and not just "who would win, Revan or Vader?". Anything that divides people into subgroups is not Star Warsish.What about the Jedi and the Sith? LFN isn't LucasArts btw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yar-El Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Oky, oky. I gave my opinion, and its not a popular one. Not a problem. I wasn't expecting people to lynch me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I have always enjoyed discussing politics and other topics with people from all around the world. It is a good way to exchange ideas and see how things are done elsewhere and learn about others' perspectives on various topics, including my own country...it can be seen as a way to "Bring People Together" too. I could not agree more with Darth333's statement. The entire reason I come here is to get a different perspective from people across the world. If I view their perspectives with an open mind, I may actually learn something about them and in the process about myself. Besides where is the fun in everyone agreeing? Oky, oky. I gave my opinion, and its not a popular one. Not a problem. I wasn't expecting people to lynch me. I understand you are saying this in jest, but you seem to believe this statement at least a little. Just in case, please understand that just because someone disagrees with you, that does not mean they are not attacking you personally. They are just stating their opinion just as you stated yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yar-El Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Its not up to us at the end. I'm just happy we had a chance to talk about things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 So that's three people now saying that Kavar's was a mistake but not one has given a reason why they think that It's been three years or so - the experiment has proved a messy disaster. It's time to unplug everything, write it all up, and file it under 'N' for 'never happened and never to be discussed'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Any chances you could give details about why it's been a messy disaster? I don't even think it's that much different from the Senate, except that the Senate tends to be more strict about its rules. And seriously, the Senate is not a messy disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I like Kavar's corner. As much as I like starwars, I like to talk about other things too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pho3nix Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Any chances you could give details about why it's been a messy disaster? I don't even think it's that much different from the Senate, except that the Senate tends to be more strict about its rules. And seriously, the Senate is not a messy disaster. Isn't it the other way around? I thought Kavar's had stricter rules. I have to say I enjoyed the discussions in the Senate over Kavar's, they tended to be more...controversial if that's the right word. Or maybe it was just the debaters who were more interesting than the ones here. I have no problem with Kavar's though, imo it shouldn't be shut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The Senate is more strict regarding ad hominem comments for instance. They got removed pretty consistently, mostly without a previously given moderator's note/warning, like it's been done here in Kavar's. This concept is basically good, especially since Kavar's was originally made to give room for not-so-serious serious discussion, also because the Senate became a place for very serious, in depth debates. But since those warnings didn't always help, it became necessary for the LF staff to do more moderating regarding that, which now in return seems to upset some people. The point is, I don't see the LF staff or any rules at fault in this case. I'm sure with less ad hominem arguments (both, the blatant and the "clever" ones) in the past, this thread would not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinchyB Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Another thought... How about we ban people who cherry pick, ignore facts/sources, and are basically there to only spread their own propaganda even though it holds no weight...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Another thought... How about we ban people who cherry pick, ignore facts/sources, and are basically there to only spread their own propaganda even though it holds no weight...? Wouldn't that mean all of us were banned? While I may dislike illogical opinions; its subjective as to what is an illogical opinion, so as such while it maybe frustrating when debating with people who do the above, I don't think a ban would be the right way around things, I'd probably just recommend ignoring the posts in the first place... I personally really like Kavars, but think that after recent events, their is and will be a review of moderating procedure, and possibly a change in direction. My 2 cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Uh, that would include about 90%+ of the people who post here. EDIT: Damn! J7 beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderWiggin Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I personally really like Kavars, but think that after recent events, their is and will be a review of moderating procedure, and possibly a change in direction. Not to be rude, but I think I may have heard this before. The best change in direction will come Nov 5. _EW_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Not to be rude, but I think I may have heard this before. _EW_ When do I ever fail to deliver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderWiggin Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 When do I ever fail to deliver? I have faith in you, my friend. _EW_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achilles Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 its subjective as to what is an illogical opinion Wrong. Logic is objective. That's why it's logic. I fully acknowledge that some people are better at recognizing it than others, but that does not mean that the field itself is subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Another thought... How about we ban people who cherry pick, ignore facts/sources, and are basically there to only spread their own propaganda even though it holds no weight...? This is a Star Wars gaming forum, not a college-level forum. We have people whose ages range from 13-103. Kids in their early teens don't have the same critical thinking skills that those with post-doctoral degrees do. They don't have the intellectual basis, nor do they even have complete physical development to have the same level of judgment that an adult has. Is the bar set low? Yes. We're trying to be inclusive here, not exclusive. We as staff also don't have the time or inclination to do mounds of research to determine if person x should be banned for posting an "unacceptable source" or "inadequate argument". If you want a forum with the intellectual bar set high, this probably isn't the place for you (in general, not KinchyB in particular). There are a good number of forums where you can have graduate-level discourse and argument. This is never going to be one of those. --------------------------- When we staff conceived this forum, we wanted people to be able to share their viewpoints without fear that they would feel like they were being crucified by someone who disagreed with them. We didn't want to see a repeat of some of the nastiness we'd seen develop in the Senate. We have failed in that mission, and failed miserably. I see a group of people who used to get along reasonably well at each others' throats. I see small groups of people getting together to consort to harass other members whose opinions they don't like. There have been times when I didn't know whether to laugh at the complete idiocy of some of the childish behavior here, cry, be completely disgusted, or hopeless about the sheer hatred I've seen in this forum or happening as a result of this forum. I have also seen people grow and develop over the last couple of years that this forum has existed. It absolutely broke my heart when Arcesious walked away from faith, but watching him develop skills to think critically about different subjects has been a great joy. Seeing others learn new ideas, develop their skills at evaluating research, sharing viewpoints from around the world, are all things I enjoy, too, and I am glad for those times when things go well because I think it helps all of us improve. We as a group of members here can decide to make it better and improve the relations here, or we can continue to snipe at each other and watch this place completely unravel. As staff, we can make changes that would decrease the unpleasantries that have developed on this forum. However, it won't work unless everyone is committed to making this place a more pleasant place to be. That's up to everyone here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth333 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 We have people whose ages range from 13-103. 103? I thought you were permanently 29 Jae But yeah, we'd like to Kavar to be as welcoming as possible to everyone, n00b to pro, no matter the background, origin or age. We are definitely not going to make it a requirement for members to meet some academic requirements, demonstrate debate or erudition skills ,etc. Kavar aims to be a place to share opinions and discuss current affairs and other "serious" topics with other LF members in a friendly and respectful environment, nothing more, nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyri Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I think KinchyB was referring to trolls who clearly do not want to debate (and are fully aware of what they are doing, as opposed to honest members who simply may not be good debaters). I think a clear line should be drawn between these two groups, and one should be acceptable and the other should not. Kavar's should be here to foster healthy debate, not to be used as a propaganda forum for those unwilling and not intending to actually debate points. This, I believe, is part of the current issues with Kavar's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 With all due respect, I must admit that I'm rather curious as to exactly where this line would be drawn, Inyri. Between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" viewpoints? "Acceptable" and "unacceptable" sources? "Acceptable" and "unacceptable" propaganda? In all fairness, the person(s) to whom you are referring are debating. Yes, they could be (a lot) less spammy and obnoxious about it, but their FUD isn't any more ridiculous than the crap that the Obamites were spewing forth ad nauseum for several months before they showed up. As a matter of fact, their style is rather reminiscent of a certain member's "damned fool athiestic crusade" of a few months ago. A debate where everyone agrees is no debate at all. It's merely a social event. In other words, it's a clique. Oops, I said I wasn't going to elaborate about Kavar's glaringly obvious flaws earlier in this thread, and I guess I just made a liar out of myself. Oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyri Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I never said anything about acceptable/unacceptable viewpoints/sources. I said something about trolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 And why are they being labeled as trolls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyri Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Because they're trolls. Definition of troll: clickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Yes, I know what a troll is. Besides the tendency towards off-topicness, which I don't see as deliberate attempts at thread derailment, what else are they doing wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyri Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I already explained this several posts ago. You're free to read that one, or KinchyB's post. I think repeating myself would be a little spammy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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