Imperial Star Destroyer vs. USS Enterprise

[Tommycat]

There is no 'fly under' zone in the shields. The shields of the Executor had been battered down by Mon Cal fire, enough that before they could refresh them, the X-Wings Torpedoes were able to hit the mark and destroy one of the shield generators.

 

"Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer!" wasn't an order given to a single group of snub-fighters I assure you. The Mon Cals did the work there to give that fighter its shot.

 

Where is that stated. I mean not to dog the moncals, but they weren't doing any damage until the shield generator got wiped. Was it just lucky timing? IF there were no way to get in under the shields, why on earth would they have been worried in ESB about the Falcon coming at their bridge.

 

At any rate, as I said, straight up fight, ISD hands down. but seeing as how the ISD couldn't even take down a freighter as it moved lazily to the left. The maneuverability of the Enterprise would win the battle. Maneuverability means more than weaponry. If you can't hit it, you can't kill it. As for the tie fighters... they get taken out by the multiple independent arrays. No shields means they get swatted real quick.

[True_Avery]

Where is that stated. I mean not to dog the moncals, but they weren't doing any damage until the shield generator got wiped. Was it just lucky timing? IF there were no way to get in under the shields, why on earth would they have been worried in ESB about the Falcon coming at their bridge.

Fear reaction? Weight/size limit that the shield can protect against? Cinematography?

 

There may not be a zone to get under, but the Millennium Falcon is not small. About the size of the bridge itself if I remember, which I'd guess would do considerable damage.

 

At any rate, as I said, straight up fight, ISD hands down. but seeing as how the ISD couldn't even take down a freighter as it moved lazily to the left. The maneuverability of the Enterprise would win the battle. Maneuverability means more than weaponry. If you can't hit it, you can't kill it. As for the tie fighters... they get taken out by the multiple independent arrays. No shields means they get swatted real quick.

I think it is important to note that they weren't trying to destroy leia's ship, as they needed the information and leia herself. The shots being taken look more like glancing warning shots than actual attempts to destroy the ship.

 

If we look at the Clone ships in the prequels as examples of ships from a less technologically superior age (as far as star wars goes), then the ISD may have more accuracy and ability than initially thought.

 

Also, it must be considered that the ISD has a tractor beam that could simply catch the decently sized Enterprise and either bring it in for possible boarding, or just bombardment. Movement means nothing if you can't escape the beam; The Millennium Falcon being caught proves that. Also, ships from 4,000 years back managed to catch the Ebon Hawk in a tractor beam and pull it in with ease.

 

And even if it couldn't stop the enterprise completely, it would be slowed down enough to be ripped apart but the ISD's superior firepower. The Enterprise, despite its weaponry, is not a war ship.

 

Plus, ontop of that you have dozens of fighters and bombers attacking the thing while it is being effected by a tractor beam and being hailed with Turbocannon fire. The sheer size, armor, shielding, independent fighters, firepower, and tractor beam technology would overwhelm the poor thing.

 

A dog might be faster and more agile than a bear, but the chances of a doberman taking down a pissed of grizzly are low. There bear may get some chunks taken out, bit it'll maul the dog long before a death blow is hit. If anything, the dog would be smarter for running away (ala warp speeding the f away)

 

And I'm not trying to play fangirl here. Just throwing another opinion out there.

 

EDIT:

Considering the Enterprise is around 300 meters, and the ISD managed to pull in something half its size with ease (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CR90_corvette), I think it may be feasible that the tractor beam could at least slow down considerably or even stop the Enterprise in its tracks, but may not have the power to pull in. All the Enterprise would have to do is get within 220 kilometers and its over.

[Tommycat]

Woah woah woah... Remember one important line before they tractored in the corvette.

 

"Did you hear that? They've shut down the main reactor. We'll be destroyed for sure. This is madness!" C-3PO

 

Now, I'm not saying in a fair fight the Enterprise would stand a chance. I've just never seen the Enterprise be all too keen on a fair fight. Warp away, or attack from Warp speed(something the Enterprise can do that the ISD cannot). Transport a whole mess of tribbles into their bridge. Enterprise being more for exploration is geared more for sensors and energy stuff.

 

And as for my couldn't destroy the freighter, I was talking about the escape from Eisley.

 

And we've seen what Picard would do with the Enterprise. Remember Picard rammed the heck out of the Scimitar. Once there, they could simply beam a photon torpedo(or quantum torpedo) into the main weapons bay of the ISD. The transporter is really the unfair advantage that the Enterprise has. Of course if they ram the bridge, the ISD doesn't have a secondary control center(at least it seems that way from the movies).

 

We've seen what happens to unshielded ships when they run across the Enterprise as well. *POOF* with the Enterprise barely slowing down. Tie fighters would be like that. pure dust.

 

Enterprise has more scientists. ISD has more soldiers. Enterprise can navigate through asteroid fields, due to it's maneuverability. And through creative tractorbeaming fling asteroids at the ISD.

 

edited to add: Another thing that has been seen is the ability for phasers to shoot through shields by matching the phaser output to the target's shield harmonics. Since I have never heard of ISD's having multiphasic shields, I can guess that the rotating phase of the Enterprise's weapons would be able to penetrate their shields as they did with the Borg shields. Keep in mind that the Enterprise E(Soverign Class) was built in preparation for a Borg attack. So it was more of a warship than the Galaxy class(my personal favorite).... ok... now I am starting to show my geek flag....

[Darth_Yuthura]

Garfiled... Sorry but Trek Canon would indicate otherwise, as I proved...

 

You would be a mosquito attacking an elephant, yes Quantum/Photon Torpedoes are hefty anti-matter weapons but can't be delivered in a significant enough quantity to deal any sort of real death blow to the ISD, add to that the abysmal arrangements of the Phaser banks/arrays on the typical federation ship allow for no real broadside potentials. You simply can't put enough on target to get the job done... though the aforementioned 'elephant' will likely not be able to swat you either if you are good at maneuvering.

 

With all due respect back, your 'opinion' is clouding the facts here, nor is it only one line either. You may not personally like classic Trek yourself and that's ok, but Gene wrote it and we have to accept it, for it is canon.

 

Rodenbarry was not remotely close to a physicist. In later series with more technical input from professionals, it negates much of what would be regarded as cannon. If Gene ignorantly said a ship was protected by a material that sounded high tech, but was really quite weak in nature; then if the ship could take a photon torpedo... or proton torpedo if you wish... then it would be more likely to assume Gene was wrong.

 

Since when would someone consider a quantum torpedo to be a 'mosquito bite'? Even for a target the size of a star destroyer, a full compliment of quantum torpedos could easily wipe it out. This can be proved 20 starships being capable of wiping out an entire planet. I would hardly imagine that you would need a space station 160 km in diameter in order to match that if Star Wars power is that much greater than from star trek.

 

One quote DOES NOT negate everything else that shows how much greater anti-matter power is vs. Star Wars power sources. That argument is moot.

[GarfieldJL]

I'll let Darth_Yuthura debunk the Roddenberry argument, instead of simply repeating her and get back to the physics situation.

 

Getting back to the power situaton, an ISD utilizes Nuclear Fusion, in this form of a nuclear reaction, an extremely small percentage of the total mass is converted to energy. The rest is converted to Helium (assuming that the ISD is using Hydrogen as a fuel supply (which would be the most fuel efficient).

 

The telltale sign that the ISD is powered by a Fusion Reactor is the Plasma weapons that the Imperial vessel uses.

 

In order to sustain a Fusion reaction you also need to use a large amount of energy to produce enough pressure for fusion to occur.

 

 

The Enterprise uses matter/antimatter in a sustained reaction where there is a total annihilation of the matter and antimatter to produce energy.

 

So we're looking at for the Enterprise

For the energy produced per second

Energy=(mass of matter + mass of antimatter) * (speed of light)^2

 

A fusion reactor of the same size as the M/ARC would be like a candle compared to a volcanic eruption. Additionally the only thing you have to worry about pressure concerning the M/ARC is the amount of energy that the reaction produces, Matter and Antimatter annihilate each other on contact.

 

The Star Destroyer's main reactor is too small to match the power output that the Enterprise has at its disposal.

 

 

We've seen Trek ships survive impacts with minimal to no damage, that would have caused major damage to a Super Star Destroyer. Case in point is whenever a Starship's shields take a hit from a photon torpedo.

 

Energy of impact = ((mass of antimatter + mass equivalent amount of matter)*c^2)+(mass of the rest of the torpedo)*(speed of the torpedo)^2)

 

And that is assuming that the target isn't flying into the torpedo, and/or it isn't at FTL velocities which further heighten the energy.

 

Just because a ship is bigger, doesn't mean it's more powerful, you have to have a look at what powers the ship.

 

 

Note:

 

I haven't thrown in Transphasic Torpedoes which can one-shot Borg Cubes, or the simple fact we can just call in the Defiant have it fly into the large docking bay of the ISD and have it decloak and start shooting...

[Astor]

or the simple fact we can just call in the Defiant have it fly into the large docking bay of the ISD and have it decloak and start shooting...

 

While it is true that the Defiant could fit inside the hangar bay of a Star Destroyer (the Defiant is 120m, and we see a Star Destroyer take the 150m long Tantive IV into her hangar in ANH) - going inside and shooting from within would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

 

And this is, after all, the USS Enterprise vs. an ISD, not Starfleet vs. an ISD.

[CommanderQ]

While it is true that the Defiant could fit inside the hangar bay of a Star Destroyer (the Defiant is 120m, and we see a Star Destroyer take the 150m long Tantive IV into her hangar in ANH) - going inside and shooting from within would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

 

And this is, after all, the USS Enterprise vs. an ISD, not Starfleet vs. an ISD.

 

With this statement, I would believe that the ISD would have a clear tactical advantage. Not to mention it probably has a technological advantage, as well. Seeing it is much larger then the Enterprise, I would think that it would be able to carry up to ten times the amount of firepower that the Enterpise has....

[Quanon]

We've seen what happens to unshielded ships when they run across the Enterprise as well. *POOF* with the Enterprise barely slowing down. Tie fighters would be like that. pure dust.

 

Its not like they are just waiting to be rammed, TIE fighters are highly mobile, I think the Trek ship would have trouble following them in 3D space without gravity.

 

Their weapons aren't perhaps that powerfull, but a whole swarm shooting and the ISD, I think it gives them a fair chance.

 

Both univeres don't really do that, using the 3D space to do dogfights.

Guess its because we never did it in real life before, so theres nothing to follow as example.

 

IIRC , the OT followed WWII movements to the fights: no clue what Trek follows, reminds me more of sea battles

[GarfieldJL]

Its not like they are just waiting to be rammed, TIE fighters are highly mobile, I think the Trek ship would have trouble following them in 3D space without gravity.

 

TIE fighters also don't have shields.

 

Rhetorical Question: What would happen to a TIE fighter if it were to fly into a cloud of antimatter?

 

Their weapons aren't perhaps that powerfull, but a whole swarm shooting and the ISD, I think it gives them a fair chance.

 

I could argue that the Enterprise can go at least as fast as an A-Wing at sublight. Furthermore, the Enterprise can alter the spread of its phaser fire from narrow beam to a wide beam, to a cone, enabling them to take out multiple TIE fighters at the same time, since TIEs don't have shields.

[Fiestainabox]

TIE fighters also don't have shields.

Rhetorical Question: What would happen to a TIE fighter if it were to fly into a cloud of antimatter?

 

IIRC Dan Brown claims it would 'splode.

 

Also, I remeber reading somewhere that ISD's were partially designed for planetary bombardment, hence their dagger shaped hulls, if I remember correctly, a lot of the laser cannons are designed to shoot dead ahead.

 

However, this would leave they're ass wide open and vulnerable.

 

So, without a doubt the ISD would maul the enterprise in a one on one, blow for blow battle, however, it would still be an interesting battle.

 

Also, you have to take into effect the Captain, if it was Thrawn vs the Enterprise, there enterprise would be dead the moment it left whatever form of hyperspace they have. I'd say nearly the same for Gilad, but not the same for Vader.

 

DV < Thrawn when it comes to intelligence and cunning.

 

But also, he'd be on a Stock ISD I assume, if Thrawn had his Chimaera, it would be pretty brutal for the enterprise.

 

 

If you gonna include the upgraded Enterprise that was talked about earlier, you gotta upgrade the ISD to Legacy Era Chimaera, matter distorting uber weapons FTW.

[SW01]

Q would turn up and, after making fun of and taunting Picard and company for about thirty five minutes, remove the ISD from existence. Then berate Picard some more.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Excuse me... Garfield JL makes a point that an Anti-Matter reaction would dwarf a fusion reaction and that if you compared the Energy/Mass ratio, a Star Trek ship like the Enterprise D would have a much greater output. Even if the ISD were larger and generated more gross energy, it could not direct it as efficiently as a starship with phasers and with shields that could withstand impacts from photon torpedos without breeching their hulls.

 

Star Destroyers have taken more damage from proton torpedos, which are smaller than photon and less destructive. Laser cannons from a ISD probably can do as much damage to a target a 500 Ib bombs per bolt, but that's nothing compared to torpedos with MEGATONS' worth of destructive energy. And given that trek ships are usually smaller, that would mean that their shields would have to be able to take especially more punishment than an ISD.

[Astor]

Come on, people. This was just meant to be a bit of fun, not a full-blown scientific comparison.

[Jae Onasi]

but it went up against Kirk and we all know how awesome he is (waits for someone to post that Kirk awesome pic).

 

Your wish is my command.

 

People--keep it fun. This isn't the Senate or Kavar's, for heaven's sake!

[GarfieldJL]

Excuse me... Garfield JL makes a point that an Anti-Matter reaction would dwarf a fusion reaction and that if you compared the Energy/Mass ratio, a Star Trek ship like the Enterprise D would have a much greater output. Even if the ISD were larger and generated more gross energy, it could not direct it as efficiently as a starship with phasers and with shields that could withstand impacts from photon torpedos without breeching their hulls.

 

To clarify and add to this argument, I'm saying that despite it's larger size the Star Destroyer probably generates less power due to the amount of energy, but essentially you are correct.

 

Even if the ISD generates slightly more power overall just because of it's immense size, the fact that we're looking at a smaller ship with as much power at its disposal if not more power throws the entire fight to the Enterprise's favor.

 

If one was to assume that both ships have the same amount of power at their disposal the ISD is in serious trouble due to the fact its shields have to cover a much larger surface area due to the ISD's bulk. The situation is even worse for the ISD if the Enterprise was to go to warp then leave the Saucer Section (assuming Enterprise D) some place and have the Stardrive come back, because then there is even less surface area that has to be covered, and the Stardrive has the M/ARC.

 

We've seen examples of incredible accuracy with Starship Phasers, in all honesty before the ISD could mount a serious offense, the Enterprise could just pinpoint target all the turbolasers and take them out with precision targetting.

 

Judging from multiple TNG episodes, it appears that the Enterprise has an incredible maneuvering advantage and could potentially run circles around the ISD.

 

Star Destroyers have taken more damage from proton torpedos, which are smaller than photon and less destructive. Laser cannons from a ISD probably can do as much damage to a target a 500 Ib bombs per bolt, but that's nothing compared to torpedos with MEGATONS' worth of destructive energy. And given that trek ships are usually smaller, that would mean that their shields would have to be able to take especially more punishment than an ISD.

 

I would say the ISD Turbolasers has a higher damage yield than that, but it's largely due to the fact it is a plasma-based weapon (which is also why people over-estimate their actual firepower).

 

Phasers are set up more to actually cut into a target than lob plasma (which causes most materials to vaporize on contact hence the explosions), while hand phasers can vaporize things (and so can the ship phasers for that matter), they are designed to do precision damage), the fact that phaser fire is usually more focused gives the Enterprise a significant advantage allowing it to literally cut into the ISD's hull like a hot knife through butter.

 

The reason that people normally under-estimate the destructive power of phasers is due to the fact they neglect a certain piece of Trek technology: Structural Integrity Field Generators.

 

The structural integrity fields are essentially like another set of shields on top of the navigation shields and combat shielding. These fields are always online, reinforcing the ship's hull, shielding it from debris, adding to its resistence to weapons fire, allowing the ship to withstand the stresses of rapid accelerations, etc. The only time the SIFGs are potentially offline is in spacedock. This is why Trek ships have been seen surviving weaponsfire without sustaining hull breaches and/or the breach not being very serious.

 

Federation ships tend to be geared to handle the unknown as exploratory vessels, thus giving them added advantages that an ISD does not have because the ISD's shields are set up to deal with known threats like Turbolaser fire. A Federation Starship has shields set up to attempt to protect the ship from everything including the kitchen sink, and you can readily modify the software for the shielding to counter new threats or enhance their ability to protect the ship from a particular known threat.

 

To give an example we don't even know if the ISD's shield would even slow down a phaser barrage, we do know that the Enterprise's shields will protect the ship from plasma based weapons.

 

To give a summery:

 

Size: ISD is larger

Mass: ISD is more massive

Crew: ISD has a larger crew compliment

Power Output: Enterprise likely has a larger power output (lowest estimate would be the same amount of power at its disposal.

Maneuverability: Enterprise holds this advantage

Sublight Speed: Enterprise holds the advantage

Number of Weapons: ISD

Firepower: Probably the Enterprise holds the advantage

Shields: Enterprise holds the advantage due to it's smaller size and thus smaller surface area.

 

Basically, in a fight the ISD's own size hinders it, the fact the Enterprise is smaller actually means that the ship's energy isn't as dispersed over the vessel. Even if they had even power outputs, the Enterprise would have stronger shields because there wouldn't be nearly the surface area to cover. There are also indications that Phasers would be a type of weapon that the Empire has never before encountered, thus raising the question the effectiveness of the shielding on the ISD. While there are numerous races that use plasma torpedos in Star Trek, so we know the Enterprise's shields will counter Turbolasers. We further know TIE fighters do not have shielding, completely eliminating them as a factor in the battle. There are numerous options at the disposal of the Enterprise crew (including simply beaming the TIE pilots (without their weapons) to the brig.

 

 

Moving on to Enterprise E, we have to throw in Quantum Torpedos, even more powerful phasers, and the fact that Enterprise-E according to post-Nemesis books, was outfitted with Transphasic Torpedoes to help counter the Borg. A Borg cube is comparible in size to an ISD, and you can one-shot one of those with a transphasic torpedo.

[Tommycat]

Your wish is my command.

 

People--keep it fun. This isn't the Senate or Kavar's, for heaven's sake!

 

but this is SERIOUS business LOL... which fake ship can beat up the other fake ship.

 

If you want to use an upgraded ISD feel free. Since they also don't have multiphasic shields, their shield absorption rate is irrelevant. Phasers can be tuned to the shield harmonics, even on the the Galaxy class ships.

 

Besides, according to the Next Generation Technical Manual, the Enterprise D has an Infinite Improbability Generator. So no matter how outmatched the Enterprise is, it is irrelevant. Enterprise wins by being the one to have an infinite improbability generator.

[True_Avery]

Enterprise has plot armor and a fan base willing to kill kittens to win, so Enterprise wins.

 

True story.

 

Also, I wanna see how much BS science this thread can pull out of its arse before the thread closes!

[Q]

My BS science is better than your BS science, and I have the BS to prove it!

[RedHawke]

Garfield @ Yuthura... Canon is canon.

 

Just because you both think the great maker of Star Trek is somehow lacking scientific knowledge in something and that as a consequence he is now no longer applicable for dictating canon for Star Trek? Even though Gene created it? You actually are trying to pitch to the jury that he is wrong here?

 

Wow! Just wow! That's true comedy right there!

[Mandalorian54]

The Star Destroyer would clearly win, hello it destroys stars. What does the enterprise do? Turn slower than a submarine, that's about it.

[Tommycat]

Garfield @ Yuthura... Canon is canon.

 

Just because you both think the great maker of Star Trek is somehow lacking scientific knowledge in something and that as a consequence he is now no longer applicable for dictating canon for Star Trek? Even though Gene created it? You actually are trying to pitch to the jury that he is wrong here?

 

Wow! Just wow! That's true comedy right there!

Actually, no, they are saying that later canon disagrees with the earlier canon, and as later canon has more sciency mumbojumbo behind it ONE episode can be discarded when it disagrees with the later science. Also, since Trek is based on OUR timeline, scientific discoveries in our real world override the gosh golly gee of Scotty. SW is not bound by our rules though, as it is for all intents and purposes completely alien. It is not bound by our discoveries.

 

The Star Destroyer would clearly win, hello it destroys stars. What does the enterprise do? Turn slower than a submarine, that's about it.

Star Destroyer is just a menacing name. A single Star Destroyer alone couldn't destroy a planet. let alone a star.

The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet. It'd take a thousand ships with more fire power than I've...

And the The Enterprise can turn pretty quick. And considering how the ISD's turn, not much room to talk.

[RedHawke]

Actually, no, they are saying that later canon disagrees with the earlier canon, and as later canon has more sciency mumbojumbo behind it ONE episode can be discarded when it disagrees with the later science. Also, since Trek is based on OUR timeline, scientific discoveries in our real world override the gosh golly gee of Scotty. SW is not bound by our rules though, as it is for all intents and purposes completely alien. It is not bound by our discoveries.

Still nonsense... canon is canon there have been no real contradictions to it either. Nothing in our current knowledge can override what is the written canon... if so then why have canon?

 

Nice try, but that argument still loses.

 

"Sciency mumbojumbo", that's a good one though.

[Tommycat]

Still nonsense... canon is canon there have been no real contradictions to it either. Nothing in our current knowledge can override what is the written canon... if so then why have canon?

 

Nice try, but that argument still loses.

 

"Sciency mumbojumbo", that's a good one though.

Not really. Canon when based on an existing world can be wrong. For instance, Geordi in one episode claims that we had never seen a silicon based life form. Then we find tube worms here that are silicon based. Real world contradicts canon, and therefore that canon is wrong.

 

Also, FTL ion propulsion was something of a mystery

Ion propulsion is a highly-advanced form of interstellar propulsion. It uses advanced ion power and leaves behind an ion trail. It was hypothesized by the Federation before 2268, but was beyond their capability.

but ion technology was not beyond ST capability

An ion drive is a type of propulsion that uses an electric field to accelerate charged particles and eject them at high velocities (in some designs, the particles approach the speed of light). This type of propulsion is used by many pre-warp civilizations to propel probes and lightweight spacecraft once they are in open space. The thrust produced is quite gentle, often requiring from hours to weeks to reach full velocity.

So using that as the basis of your argument is weak at best.

 

great... now I went there... I swore I wouldn't... Now I'll never get that smell off me...

 

Oh, and keep in mind that not listed in the shielding for Enterprise is the deflector array. It's just considered part of the navigation system, but it is like another set of shielding.

 

oh and the bussard collectors

The Bussard collector normally collects hydrogen, especially deuterium for fuel replenishment but can be reconfigured to collect various gases like sirillium and plasma particles.

[jonathan7]

I'm sorry but there seems to be a suggestion that somehow the Enterprise, which is basically a science and exploration vehicle (with about two variations of weapons from only a couple of firepoints) has more fire power than a warship about 20 times it size, and several thousands years in advance of the Enterprise technology and above all that a ship specifically designed for war...

 

Fanboys are both greatly amusing, and considerably irritating.

[Tommycat]

I'm sorry but there seems to be a suggestion that somehow the Enterprise, which is basically a science and exploration vehicle (with about two variations of weapons from only a couple of firepoints) has more fire power than a warship about 20 times it size, and several thousands years in advance of the Enterprise technology and above all that a ship specifically designed for war...

 

Fanboys are both greatly amusing, and considerably irritating.

 

Hey, I'm not saying that. I'm only saying that a ship designed and crewed to handle the unknown would be more likely to win despite the actual ship's disadvantage(firepower wise).

 

I would be more likely to believe that the Defiant could take it. That cloak combined with transporter, and a timed detonation of a warhead... say in a weapons hold... or Bridge... would likely win.

 

Just a note though.. I disagree that the Enterprise generated more power. The sheer size of the ISD's and the number of weapons on them means they had to generate a whole lot of power. It would be like lighting up Vegas. Lots of power required. Now.. could it have had a greater available? possibly. Maybe more of a percentage of reserves. But then they could tell every one on the ISD to turn off the lights.