Revan vs. Anikan if he didn't have to be in that Darth Vader costume

[Gob]

How? Is Sidious going to make Anakin into a Dark Lord that would have surpassed him? We know Sidious planned to never do that.

 

He knew that Anakin would become the most powerful Force user of all time. He wanted Anakin to succeed him. He only started using Vader as a tool after Mustafar, at which point he lost more than half of his potential.

 

Mandalore the Ultimate - Greatest of the Mandalorians at the time, both in strategic mentality and combat prowess. You don't become Mandalore if you aren't either.

 

Yusanis - Elite among the Echani.

 

Darth Malak - Not very bright, but his strength and determination where both on a very high level, and when he had the power of the Star Forge flowing through him it made him probably twice as powerful, along with the ability to regenerate about ten times had Revan not freed the half-dead Jedi.

 

Uthar Wynn and Yuthura Ban - Not in the least bit push overs. We're talking a very intelligent Sith Lord and an extremely skilled Dark Jedi Sentinel, with Revan's amnesia still around.

 

Anakin beat Durge, a nigh invincible bounty hunter. He beat Count Dooku, who is in the highest tier of duelists, and on Mace Windu's level. He also beat Asajj Ventress, who tooled several Jedi herself.

 

Again, saying that someone is "extremely skilled" means nothing in a fight if they don't have any feats to back it up, unless it's specific, like "Phil was the most skilled duelist in the Order." None of the people you mentioned have a statement like that, or any feats to show their strength.

 

Mockery: Oh Master, please list a specific list of accomplishments and indications of Revan's power. Not that you will care of course since right afterwards you'll say they are vague, subjective, and somehow invalid because your all-important movie era superceeds everything else without question because YOU say so without providing any indication of the Skywalker meatbag's accomplishments or indications of potential.

 

See above.

 

It is perfectly relevant. The only significance to the plot of the prequel trilogy is that he became Darth Vader, and when he defeated the Emperor, all he did was surprise attack him by picking him up and throwing him down a reactor core. Is that power? According to the Sith Code, a Sith has to actually demonstrate his/her power is superior to claim victory. Since Vader is a Sith, we should probably judge him on this standard, and we soon find he has come up very very very short.

 

Again, what are you saying? Anakin's the central character in Star Wars, so he's not unimportant to the plot, if that's what you mean. And we're not talking about Vader. We're talking about Anakin. Vader's not as powerful as Anakin, except maybe in Force mastery.

 

And Vader renounced the dark side when he turned on Sidious. Malak took out Revan without showing his strength. I don't see you talking about that.

 

With all respect and whatnot, Redhawke...I find this somewhat poor reasoning. For one thing, the Star Wars Universe has had many different writers contributing to it. They come to Lucas of course out of respect for him as the original author, but when they create something in the canon it is canon until a retcon appears out of nowhere. Chris Avellone and whoever have just as much say in this as Lucas does. And what happens when Lucas someday dies of old age? Not that I'm hoping that's going to happen in case anyone was thinking that...

 

G-canon > All. That's an established rule in SW debate.

[Astor]

Draw, if only because the premise is ridiculous.

[Lord of Hunger]

G-canon > All. That's an established rule in SW debate.

I find it interesting that I go and have debates with people and then you show up, say G-CANON IZ UBER 1337 AND PWNS KOTOR N00BS, thus killing any possibility of me having a discussion with anyone. I am getting really sick of it, especially since you use it as a get-out-of-jail free card or something to hide behind when it is obvious that you cannot provide decent evidence to assert your claims.

[Darth Scorcher]

I never said that kotor doesn't exist, just it means that whatever G-canon says is true, but we can still have a discussion, I still think Revan would win, just not as easily as pushing Anakin down a cliff. I just get tired of everyone saying Revan is Uber-ultimate or whatever without bothering to tell us why they think that, oh wait, I know, because he's the [sarcasm]ultimate person in the universe[/sarcasm]

[Lord of Hunger]

I wasn't referring to you onebaddude, I was referring to Gob. And I agree that Revan is not the uber-ultimate guy, it's just obvious that he is easily superior to Anakin the Whinny Self-Centered Brat.

[Giant Graffiti]

I find it interesting that I go and have debates with people and then you show up, say G-CANON IZ UBER 1337 AND PWNS KOTOR N00BS, thus killing any possibility of me having a discussion with anyone.

But, it's correct. If George Lucas says that Motti's full name is Conan Antonio Motti, then it is.

[Demongo]

Well................I think Revan gets my vote but don't ask why:p

[RedHawke]

With all respect and whatnot, Redhawke...I find this somewhat poor reasoning.

Sorry mate, but your statements are one of someone who wants to discount GL own statements to support your own views... And that actually is somewhat insulting the creator of the very thing you are supposedly a "fan" of, IMHO.

 

Gob stated the truth, it is as undeniable as you can get...

 

G-canon > All. That's an established rule in SW debate.

That's final in Star Wars... to attempt to argue otherwise is folly. (Clarification: Folly in any attempt to argue canon with Lucas.)

 

I find it interesting that I go and have debates with people and then you show up, say G-CANON IZ UBER 1337 AND PWNS KOTOR N00BS, thus killing any possibility of me having a discussion with anyone. I am getting really sick of it, especially since you use it as a get-out-of-jail free card or something to hide behind when it is obvious that you cannot provide decent evidence to assert your claims.

This is something you on the "other side of the fence" have to come to accept, that canon will intrude in these discussions, it always will.

 

If you truly want to discount any canon at all, then my PnP character RedHawke could wipe the floor with all of them, Jedi and Sith combined... from any era, all together... but you see I have been on your side of that very fence before and the little thing called "Canon" gets in the way of that and I'm ok with that... she is my 'Mary Sue' anyway so I am biased, like you appear to be on the ancient Sith and their capabilities.

 

It doesn't mean you can't have a debate, you just need to state that you are disregarding certain things beforehand, this thread didn't, and even if it did those who stick to canon do have their own merits in any discussion.

[adamqd]

The way I see it is , Anakin, as depicted in the films, show's little of this Power. The way Revan was written and the feats he performed, C-canon storyline or none far exceeds that of the Chosen one...

 

The problem we face is that, George Lucas, created a licensing department to organize and create a massive immersive Expanded universe, and signed his surname to it all, deeming it official merchandise and Canon (Albeit a lower form, but canon none the less)

He doesn't follow these stories, and of course doesn't check sources or essential guides before adding to canon. The maker giveth, the maker taketh away.

 

But I do agree that if your just gonna say "Well George said that Anakin is the uber, so your ghey opinion moot!" why are you even in a an "Infinites" type, discussion, it is not based in fact, it is just fan musings.

 

For the record the Canon/EU debate is going wild atm, with the resent Karen travis uproar, and people are calling for a more developed canon definition to be made by Lucasfilm.

 

IMO G-canon rules, but it isn't always good, and it often convolutes its own continuity.

 

OT: Haven't we had this thread before? lol

[cire992]

And I agree that Revan is not the uber-ultimate guy, it's just obvious that he is easily superior to Anakin the Whinny Self-Centered Brat.

 

I think Hunger's statement here just about sums up this thread, the superiority of KOTOR to the clone wars and epitomizes all that is afoul at LucasFilms.

 

Remember back when Vader used to be cool?

[Agincourt]

Revan would win.

 

Anakin was all muscle and no brains. Darth Vader was much weaker than Anakin, but he should have been able to develop his mind since then. Combine Darth Vader's brain with Anakin's strength and what do you get? No equal to Revan I'll say that.

[Forogorn]

Lol, Anakin is spelled wrong, but anyways, I think Anakin would have been the victor. Revan was a magnificent strategist, he was wise and intelligent at the same time, but that doesn't mean anything. Anakin was more powerful, stronger, and was very strong in the Force. He could just force choke Revan and would win. I hope you people aren't voting for Revan because you got to play as him. Revan is not that powerful as you think, if he was, he would have defeated Bastila and the Jedi trying to capture him, and escape before Malak could have blasted his ship. Theofore, Revan is weak and pathethic and should have seen it coming. And if Revan was smart, he would have stayed on the path of the Light Side, so that Malak wouldn't have taken over as Dark Lord of the Sith. He also should have killed his master, Kreia, to show that he has turned to the Dark Side, instead of going far away and was never to be seen again. If he had killed Kreia, he would have saved a lot of trouble for the Exile in the second game. There I go, I proved that Revan is weak with many reasons to go along with it.

[Lord of Hunger]

@ Redhawke: adamq actually said everything I wanted to say.

 

But if I need to play by the rules, then I'll do so. I officially declare that in any debate I have/partake in within the LF forums, I disregard the superiority of G-Canon over C-Canon and will judge any character and whatnot based only on in-universe material.

 

And of course your PnP character would wipe out everyone combined! With those weapons?

[Lord of Hunger]

Lol, Anakin is spelled wrong, but anyways, I think Anakin would have been the victor.

I do wish a moderator would fix that. But please good sir proceed with your proof..

Revan was a magnificent strategist, he was wise and intelligent at the same time, but that doesn't mean anything.

Oh really? You do realize that wisdom and intelligence has a great deal to do with mastery of the Force.

Anakin was more powerful, stronger, and was very strong in the Force.

Could he control that strength?

He could just force choke Revan and would win.

...so you are saying that Anakin, who before his transformation in Darth Vader had only used Force Choke once, would be able to defeat someone would probably uses Force Choke regularly?

I hope you people aren't voting for Revan because you got to play as him.

Hardly. The player character in KOTOR isn't truly Revan. To me, Revan is only Revan when he has his full personality back. You know, the one that pretended to be fall to the Dark Side in order to rebuild the Galaxy in preparation for the True Sith?

Revan is not that powerful as you think, if he was, he would have defeated Bastila and the Jedi trying to capture him, and escape before Malak could have blasted his ship. Theofore, Revan is weak and pathethic and should have seen it coming. And if Revan was smart, he would have stayed on the path of the Light Side, so that Malak wouldn't have taken over as Dark Lord of the Sith. He also should have killed his master, Kreia, to show that he has turned to the Dark Side, instead of going far away and was never to be seen again. If he had killed Kreia, he would have saved a lot of trouble for the Exile in the second game. There I go, I proved that Revan is weak with many reasons to go along with it.

So in each area you are suggesting that Revan should have been able to know everything and because he didn't he's somehow weak.

 

Let me flip this around.

 

"Anakin is not as powerful as you think, if he was, he would have defeated Obi-Wan on Mustafar and never got burned into a hunk of charred flesh encased in a very limiting armor. Therefore, Anakin is weak and pathetic and should have been a bit less arrogant. And if Anakin was smart he would have stayed on the path of the Light so that Darth Sidious wouldn't have taken over as Galactic Emperor. He should have killed Master Yoda to show that he had turned to the Dark Side instead of getting utterly clobbered by Luke in Episode 6. That way he would have saved a lot of trouble for Darth Sidious in the Original Trilogy. There I go, I just proved Anakin is weak with many reasons to go along with it."

 

 

EDIT: Oops, accidentally double posted! Could a Moderator please correct my stupid mistake and merge these two posts? Thank you and sorry in advance.

[Te Je'karta Mand'alor]

 

...so you are saying that Anakin, who before his transformation in Darth Vader had only used Force Choke once, would be able to defeat someone would probably uses Force Choke regularly?

 

actualy he used it a few times as vader

[TKA-001]

I'll just drop a roll down this well and move on.

 

Revan was a Sith Lord who was considered to have immense power, with many people speaking highly of him, suggesting this consideration to be more or less accurate. Anakin was a Jedi Knight who was considered to have immense power (Mace Windu himself even said that Anakin was "arguably the most powerful Jedi alive" in the Revenge of the Sith novel). Many spoke highly of him and he has many achievements under his belt in the Clone Wars. Both had extensive experience in leadership positions in wars (Regretfully, we don't know if Revan ever personally led troops, covert teams, and such). Anakin was considered a master in his area of lightsaber combat, along with his high strength in the Force. So was Revan, but we don't know what combat forms he used, or what sort of Force powers he favored.

 

Who would win? There simply isn't enough information to draw a definitive conclusion. We know much more about Anakin's power than Revan's (very few of his accomplishments have actually been shown in any canonical source), and what his strengths and weaknesses in KOTOR I can't be used to argue because they could be anything. Revan at the height of his power as Dark Lord of the Sith has never actually been shown doing much; Ultimately, we really don't have any way of measuring how powerful or skilled he is except that he was very much so (which isn't enough information).

 

Complicating the discussion is the factor set by the main post that the Anakin in this case is Anakin without sustaining his injuries. I think I should not here that in the novel Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine himself notes privately that Vader's real source of weakness in the suit is more psychological than anything else (quote: "Sith power rested not in the flesh, but in the will"). That said, how much weaker Vader was made by his suit is sort of a moot point in this thread. Heading back to the thread's main premise, there is again not enough information on how powerful this hypothetical Vader would be, or in what way. And how old are we talking? Do we mean uninjured Vader shortly after Episode III, where he still can be blinded by pride, arrogance, or sheer anger? Or is it an uninjured Vader many years down the road, where that weakness has been ground down by hardened Sith training and exercises, now a more cautious man? How did he expand that power of his during this time? Did he decide that his swordsmanship was good enough and start investigating more advanced Force techniques and powers, or did he move on to study of other lightsaber forms? Or did he do both? How well did his efforts go? Did dark side corruption start to affect his physical health, like it did with Cronal or the Emperor in the Dark Empire trilogy?

 

Therein lies the problem, in the end. There are far too many questions like this for both combatants that cannot be answered by canonical information. We don't know enough about the hypothetical Anakin (nor can we, since by nature he is non-canonical and detailed by no published source). We can speculate on how Anakin/Vader would have developed his talents or personality traits without the injuries sustained on Mustafar, but there is not enough information to declare with any certainty how he would have changed; There is no way of knowing how powerful, skilled, or anything else he would be. As for Revan, the same problem exists, albeit with one difference; Rather than simply not even existing, Revan exists, but also has no information detailing his strengths, weaknesses, and [relevant] personality traits, just as the hypothetical Anakin does. Again, we can guess, form theories, speculate, jump around, and prophesy until the spade becomes a shovel, but there are too many holes in the information we have to say who would win. We don't know how powerful either are/would be, we don't know how skilled, we don't know what psychological strengths and weaknesses they would have, and so on.

 

For this reason, this thread is in reality just about "which character do you like better" more than which character would have better chances of winning in single-combat.

[Godric Volturi]

...so you are saying that Anakin, who before his transformation in Darth Vader had only used Force Choke once, would be able to defeat someone would probably uses Force Choke regularly?

 

actualy he used it a few times as vader

 

The key phrase in that statement is "before his transformation into Darth Vader"

[Te Je'karta Mand'alor]

yeah i didn't read it right.

[Agincourt]

I think that the whole canon thing is not worth that much anymore. Lucas originally had a story that covered everything from episode 1 to 6 and really didn't intend to make much else beyond that. If he agrees to let KOTOR and the expanded universe become canon, then it means Revan is more powerful than Anakin.

 

Problem is that if Lucas said something that conflicts with the expanded universe or KOTOR, you don't simply yield to Lucas because he was the creator. I would go with what you observe from the movies/games or what you read in the books. If Anakin never manipulated a star destroyer, then we should assume Starkiller was more powerful in that regard. If Revan had done much greater feats than Anakin, I would rely more on what he could do than what Lucas said.

[RedHawke]

But if I need to play by the rules, then I'll do so. I officially declare that in any debate I have/partake in within the LF forums, I disregard the superiority of G-Canon over C-Canon and will judge any character and whatnot based only on in-universe material.

That's fine but you also will have to accept that others you talk to don't have to obey these rules and when the 'canon beast' comes up you may have to re-state this over and over again. And over, and over, and ov... you get the picture.

 

In Lucas' defense Jedi/Sith displaying such fabled and awesome abilities on screen for you to have your "proof" would have made any reasonable storytelling neigh impossible, not that some parts of the story as told weren't hard enough for some to swallow as it is. This is easier in a comic or writing a book than it is in making a movie, so while some EU character 'pwns all' with his 'uber l33t powers' in a novel I can guarantee you that a movie made of that story would not have much or any of that ultimate power nonsense.

 

And of course your PnP character would wipe out everyone combined! With those weapons?

If you are referring to the avatar and sig, that's isn't the right character. I have a whole source book on Red, and when it came time to adjust it for the prequels it didn't actually take long.

 

Problem is that if Lucas said something that conflicts with the expanded universe or KOTOR, you don't simply yield to Lucas because he was the creator.

While you indeed don't have to yield to Lucas, by doing so though in a debate you also don't have a leg to stand on in your arguments either, as those who choose to stick with the stated canon will challenge your statements, and rightfully so.

[Tobias Reiper]

Lol, Anakin is spelled wrong, but anyways, I think Anakin would have been the victor. Revan was a magnificent strategist, he was wise and intelligent at the same time, but that doesn't mean anything. Anakin was more powerful, stronger, and was very strong in the Force. He could just force choke Revan and would win. I hope you people aren't voting for Revan because you got to play as him. Revan is not that powerful as you think, if he was, he would have defeated Bastila and the Jedi trying to capture him, and escape before Malak could have blasted his ship. Theofore, Revan is weak and pathethic and should have seen it coming. And if Revan was smart, he would have stayed on the path of the Light Side, so that Malak wouldn't have taken over as Dark Lord of the Sith. He also should have killed his master, Kreia, to show that he has turned to the Dark Side, instead of going far away and was never to be seen again. If he had killed Kreia, he would have saved a lot of trouble for the Exile in the second game. There I go, I proved that Revan is weak with many reasons to go along with it.

And I laugh at them.

Revan very nearly destroyed the Republic in a very short amount of time, while Anakin who had unlimited soldiers behind him, it took about what to destroy the CIS? 20 years?

The thing about Anakin that makes him inferior is that he was so incredibly headstrong and arrogant, that it was pretty much his own fault he lost all his limbs and nearly burned on Mustafar, and oh yeah, Revan was shot at by his own apprentice with a huge ship and managed to live.

Anakin was way to attached as well, refusing to kill Palpatine when it was discovered who he was.

And Padme, who he was so attached to that he would reveal all the Republic's secrets to the Droids if both were captured with 0% chance of escaping and forced to watch Padme be tortured, where as Revan did not say a single word of a secret while watching Bastila be tortured.

[Astor]

And I laugh at them.

Revan very nearly destroyed the Republic in a very short amount of time, while Anakin who had unlimited soldiers behind him, it took about what to destroy the CIS? 20 years?

 

Three years. Three years for the Republic to destroy the CIS.

 

Revan was shot at by his own apprentice with a huge ship and managed to live.

 

Barely. It was luck, and Bastila's healing abilities that saved The Dark Lord on the bridge of his flagship.

 

And Padme, who he was so attached to that he would reveal all the Republic's secrets to the Droids if both were captured with 0% chance of escaping and forced to watch Padme be tortured, where as Revan did not say a single word of a secret while watching Bastila be tortured.

 

That's a ridiculous assumption, based on nothing more than speculation.

[Agincourt]

While you indeed don't have to yield to Lucas, by doing so though in a debate you also don't have a leg to stand on in your arguments either, as those who choose to stick with the stated canon will challenge your statements, and rightfully so.

 

I wasn't taking a side. I was simply bringing up the matter of canon conflicting with one another. If someone created something and Lucas said that he would not honor it as part of his star wars universe, then that makes that creation moot. If Lucas said that he would allow KOTOR and TFU to be considered canon, then they are worth just as much as any of his creations.

 

You do make a point about the movies being more difficult to make 'ultimate jedi powers' than novels or even games. But if Lucas wants to redo the movies and make all his Jedi more powerful, then he can do that. Otherwise, I will assume that Darth Vader was not as great as all the Jedi I've seen in the games and the pretrilogy.

[Giant Graffiti]

where as Revan did not say a single word of a secret while watching Bastila be tortured.

In my game, Revan told Saul everything.

[jonathan7]

In my game' date=' Revan told Saul everything.[/quote']

 

What happens if you do that? (What does Saul say)