Agincourt Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 What does it for me is that Anakin took on eight Jedi and killed them all almost single-handedly. This was in a comic book, which conflict with Vader's true abilities in the movies. G-canon overrules C-canon, if that's what people will go at. Of course, as this is Anakin pre-Vader suit, I'd say Revan would beat him without the suit. The suit made Vader much less able than he was before that. This is supposed to be like Vader's mind in Anakin's unmutilated body. Not that Vader really improved much once his will and body were broken. Besides, Anakin was naturally strong in the Force (Lucas confirms he's the Chosen One, and just look at his midichlorian count) Also, there's nothing to confirm that "Older SW Jedi/Sith > Newer Jedi/Sith" Lucas had never addressed this, as he had never expected KOTOR to come into existence when he created Star Wars. If he says that Anakin was the most powerful Jedi, but another from the KOTOR era showed himself superior, then the superior canon creates a flaw in the logic of it all. We have seen his pre-Vader potential, at that is what this thread is analyzing. Not really. They're projecting what Anakin would have become if he wasn't Darth Vader. Then on top of that, whether he was superior to Revan. One speculation upon another. 1) Djem So has to be the most overrated lightsaber combat form in existence. The fact that he beat Dooku with it is not a testament to the strength of the Form but the fact that he was able to surprise his opponent with a different form and the use of the Dark Side. 2) More natural potential does not equal Superior Force Abilities. Anakin was a Guardian, and thus never developed much focus and a range of different abilities. Revan was a Consular who studied under many Jedi Masters, and at Malachor and Korriban. See where I am going? Well you should assume that Anakin would have learned more fighting techniques eventually. But you do have a point that Revan was more skilled. According to Canderous Ordo, Mical the Disciple, G0-T0, and others, Revan did used very complex tactics often involving feints and the willingness to sacrifice one asset to acquire ten others. It was Malak who used the Sith Armies for overwhelming force tactics. So Revan used finesse, which could topple extreme levels of raw brute strength. Anakin on the other hand was like superman. Invincible, but was nothing without his super strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gob Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Please actually read my posts. I specified during this debate that we were discussing pre-amnesia Revan, which is different from the personality created by the Jedi Council. We have strong idications that Revan was a Consular due to the descriptions of his extensive Force Mastery. Strategum is often a trait of the Consular class. Malak, who relied on brute power, was more likely the Guardian of the two. Wait... What? I was referring to pre-amnesia Revan. His power is unknown. We know he's strong, but not how strong. We don't know how he beat Mandalore, Yusanis, and Malak. What have they done? There are no feats or quotes giving us a good idea of how strong they were. And for all we know, he could have killed them all with grenades. But we don't know. Obi-Wan beat Grievous, killed Maul, and defeated Durge. Those feats seem to match Revan's. We have seen his pre-Vader potential, at that is what this thread is analyzing. I'm pretty sure he's talking about Anakin at his full potential. He said "if he wasn't burned on Mustafar," and if he meant RotS Anakin, he probably would have stated so. But he'll have to specify. Anakin walks in with guns blazing and kills a whole bunch of a Jedi...with a great deal of help from the Clone Troopers. I doubt that he would have been able to kill all of them if there weren't Troopers to at least distract the Jedi. Obviously, the clones did most of the killing. But that was mostly for the common Knights and such. Anakin killed Cin Drallig, the Jedi Weaponsmaster while fighting off one or two other Jedi. Shows that he was probably taking care of the more notable ones. Revan enters and persuades the more talented and powerful of the Jedi to join a worthy cause, then afterwards form a powerful Sith Empire. He has reduced the power of the Republic and Jedi by at least a third and formed an Empire from scratch. Don't see what that has to do with anything. Revan was more charismatic, that much is apparent. 1) Djem So has to be the most overrated lightsaber combat form in existence. The fact that he beat Dooku with it is not a testament to the strength of the Form but the fact that he was able to surprise his opponent with a different form and the use of the Dark Side. How is Djem So overrated? And what does that have to do with anything? 2) More natural potential does not equal Superior Force Abilities. Anakin was a Guardian, and thus never developed much focus and a range of different abilities. Revan was a Consular who studied under many Jedi Masters, and at Malachor and Korriban. See where I am going? No. First of all, you have no proof that Revan was a Consular. You're using pure speculation. Also, we know that Revan was knowledgeable in the Force, but we don't know what he knew. Saying he knew a lot doesn't mean anything. I'd say the exact opposite. Ever heard of Dun Moch? One does not need to kill to defeat an opponent. Oh, and Dooku? To a master duelist like him, leverage and terrain are everything. Charging into battle like a loon (something Anakin did against Dooku during the end of Episode II) is like asking for failure. Anakin grew tremendously, both in power and experience, between AotC and RotS. Using his faults from AotC when referring to RotS Anakin is like calling out ESB Luke when talking about FotJ Luke. And Dooku uses Makashi, which is designed to use as little energy as possible while making precise strikes and exploiting flaws in an opponent's swordplay. Terrain isn't its foundation. Proof? Mastery over Djem So does not equal a better lightsaber dualist, considering that it is easy for someone with lots of great strength to master. For the most part, all you're doing is just hacking at your opponent very quickly. Juyo, meanwhile, is a far more complex form. Dooku has noted that Anakin was the best practitioner of Djem So he had seen in his life. And that's really saying something. And what does Juyo have to do with anything? There's no proof that Revan used it, if that's what you're inferring. Plus, form =/= automatic victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Hunger Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Wait... What? I was referring to pre-amnesia Revan. His power is unknown. We know he's strong, but not how strong. So what you are saying is that you have multiple personality disorder and none of those personalities know anything. [/JOKE] In all seriousness, I have cited numerous indications of Revan's training and power. We don't know how he beat Mandalore, Yusanis, and Malak. What have they done? There are no feats or quotes giving us a good idea of how strong they were. And for all we know, he could have killed them all with grenades. Perhaps then you might try LOOKING IT UP! But no, you're just going to say that it's all unknown and use that as a way to shut down this debate. But we don't know. Obi-Wan beat Grievous, killed Maul, and defeated Durge. Those feats seem to match Revan's. Grevious - Cyborg who killed a bunch of Jedi Maul - Skilled Juyo Duelist Durge - Bounty Hunter with a tendency to survive things a lot vs. Mandalore the Ultimate - Leader of the Mandalorians (which means he's the greatest of them all) Yusanis - Skilled Echani General and Senator Darth Malak - Dark Lord of the Sith, empowered by the Star Forge Does the sheer difference between these different sets of characters mean ANTYHING to you? I'm pretty sure he's talking about Anakin at his full potential. He said "if he wasn't burned on Mustafar," and if he meant RotS Anakin, he probably would have stated so. But he'll have to specify. Yes, obviously he will. Obviously, the clones did most of the killing. But that was mostly for the common Knights and such. Anakin killed Cin Drallig, the Jedi Weaponsmaster while fighting off one or two other Jedi. Shows that he was probably taking care of the more notable ones. Killing Cin Drallig is about the only significant thing I've seen Anakin do. Don't see what that has to do with anything. Revan was more charismatic, that much is apparent. It has everything to do with everything. It shows that Revan is by far the smarter individual of the two. How is Djem So overrated? And what does that have to do with anything? No. First of all, you have no proof that Revan was a Consular. You're using pure speculation. Also, we know that Revan was knowledgeable in the Force, but we don't know what he knew. Saying he knew a lot doesn't mean anything. You really enjoy not reading anyone's posts carefully and then repeating yourself over and over again, do you? Anakin grew tremendously, both in power and experience, between AotC and RotS. Using his faults from AotC when referring to RotS Anakin is like calling out ESB Luke when talking about FotJ Luke. Except that Anakin's idiotic "let's jump over Obi-Wan" move on Mustafar shows that he didn't really grow all that much. Anakin in AOTC is a Padawan bordering on Knight, and becomes a Knight before ROTS. Luke in ESB is an Apprentice and becomes a Knight by ROTJ. Big difference in growth. And Dooku uses Makashi, which is designed to use as little energy as possible while making precise strikes and exploiting flaws in an opponent's swordplay. Terrain isn't its foundation. Actually knowing and utilizing terrain is a primary aspect of all dueling. A Master duelist like Dooku would recognize this. For example, he distracted Yoda in AOTC by bringing down a column. Dooku has noted that Anakin was the best practitioner of Djem So he had seen in his life. And that's really saying something. And what does Juyo have to do with anything? There's no proof that Revan used it, if that's what you're inferring. Plus, form =/= automatic victory. I could quote the Wookiepedia page on Revan, specifically the one that cites that he used Juyo, but I'm not going to be bothered because it is the obligation of both parties to research the topic before entering the debate. And yes, I've read Anakin's page...thoroughly. I was not impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agincourt Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 But Anakin is the chosen one; well was the chosen one. He was George Lucas' favorite and he was the one Lucas said was the most powerful Jedi ever. Cling to G-canon. Cling to G-canon. Cling to G-canon. George says it's Anakin George says it's Anakin George says it's Anakin Most everything else points to Revan, but it's not like you can contradict G-canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamqd Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 But Anakin is the chosen one; well was the chosen one. He was George Lucas' favorite and he was the one Lucas said was the most powerful Jedi ever. Cling to G-canon. Cling to G-canon. Cling to G-canon. George says it's Anakin George says it's Anakin George says it's Anakin Most everything else points to Revan, but it's not like you can contradict G-canon. Read back a couple of pages. The fact that people quote real world statements/canon in a fictional character vs fictional character discussion, means they entered this discussion with the intention of ending said discussion... kind of pointless really. we all know George doesn't know anything about the EU, and doesn't care, and his word rules... but we can still discuss cool stuff without bringing down the G-bomb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 So that means if Darth Vader wasn't the spectacular swordsman that he was proclaimed to be, (because the actors who played him weren't master swordsman in any degree) then G-cannon contradicts itself. Lucas claimed that Darth Vader (even after the black suit) was a level 9 swordsman. It is stated in the movies that Anakin was a very skilled person with a saber, Episode 2 the chase scene on Coruscant, the dual with Dooku in Episode 3. There is no contradiction at any rate because Lucas main statements don't contradict the movies at all. In the famous Vader Armor in Episodes 4-6 now, Vader is not as good as he used to be and Lucas has himself stated that the duel between Luke and Vader in EP6 was basically "an untrained kid taking on a cripple." Out of curiosity, what is a level 9 swordsman again? Where does this come from? More importantly where does Lucas state this as you indicate he has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Graffiti Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Killing Cin Drallig is about the only significant thing I've seen Anakin do. Dooku? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamqd Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Out of curiosity, what is a level 9 swordsman again? Where does this come from? More importantly where does Lucas state this as you indicate he has? Funnily enough, I was searching my vast archive for this "Level 9 swordsman" malarkey last night hehe... No luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agincourt Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 The fact that people quote real world statements/canon in a fictional character vs fictional character discussion, means they entered this discussion with the intention of ending said discussion... kind of pointless really. I know. It's like George's word is like Scotty's "It must be ion power, captain!" That one line makes everyone in the SW universe say their ships are more powerful than in ST, despite many in the trek series able to destroy entire planets with a ship smaller than a star destroyer. So why do people cling to those irrelevant single liner's, despite all the contents that contradict them? All George has to do is lie and everything in KOTOR suddenly is disregarded? If he redid the original movies to make his claim true instead, then they'd have something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Just out of curiosity, can anyone come up with a reference to where Lucas actually says that Anakin is the most powerful jedi ever? As far as I recall, no one actually mentions this in the movies; they say he has a high midichlorian count (indicating his potential to become the most powerful jedi) and that he's destined to destroy the sith. Unless I'm failing to recall a line or two, this doesn't really assert that Anakin has to be the most powerful jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forogorn Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 LordofHunger, what I'm trying to say, is that they both are weak and powerful at the same time, they have weaknesses and strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamqd Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Just out of curiosity, can anyone come up with a reference to where Lucas actually says that Anakin is the most powerful jedi ever? Pretty sure its the DVD commentary... I'll check and get back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ping Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Pretty sure its the DVD commentary... I'll check and get back All's he says is that Anakin is the Chosen One. I don't take that to mean he's the most powerful Jedi ever, but he could be up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamqd Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 All's he says is that Anakin is the Chosen One. I don't take that to mean he's the most powerful Jedi ever, but he could be up there. hmmm, You checked all 4 hours of AOTC and ROTS Commentary? that was quick lol... as I said I'll get back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ping Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 hmmm, You checked all 4 hours of AOTC and ROTS Commentary? that was quick lol... as I said I'll get back Nope, just going off of what I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agincourt Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Funnily enough, I was searching my vast archive for this "Level 9 swordsman" malarkey last night hehe... No luck I've found secondary sources that say that Lucas claimed Vader was at level 9, but those aren't reliable. Mace, Dooku, Vader, and Yoda were considered 'level 9' where Obi Wan was rated at level 8. I don't put any value in this, but I'll be back with something more real. Edit: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat One of the behind the scenes references was: "Nick Gillard developed a ranking system for the level of skill and power of each major lightsaber fighter in the Prequel Trilogy to choreograph action-packed sequences in Revenge of the Sith. The fighting prowess of each of the characters were ranked against other Jedi on a scale of 1 to 10. "Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it. Knowing all of that from a story standpoint was enormously helpful in choreographing the sequence," Gillard says. The specifics of this ranking system remains unknown." My point is that Vader is supposed to have been able to defeat four of eight masters after he became Vader. No one with the skill in the movies could have really taken on eight and stand a chance, unless those masters suddenly and conveniently lost all their abilities for no reason whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 G-Canon > C-Canon Is it annoying? Yes, but it is how things are. I think it's rather nice that the G spot wins out in the end.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Boo. You're right, though. If he can find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamqd Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 10char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Avlectus Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 It wouldn't have made any difference. If we are to believe what happened in the PT, Anakin would have been far too stupid to know or to learn what to do with all of that power. Good one! Revan would just use cheat codes to max out all his powers' date=' therefore he would win.[/quote'] YES! I like that. George Lucas > EU in all things Star Wars canon. That's like trying to argue Jack Ryan's capabilities with Tom Clancy, it is a foolish thing to attempt because only Tom knows what Jack is fully capable of as it is his character, and his novels/universe. Same could be said of arguing Babylon 5 with Joe Straczynski, or Star Trek with Gene Roddenberry. Or anything MegaMan with Keiji Inafune or at least the MM dept of capcom when Capcom decided to override Inafune when it was seen as profitable. Haha, but of course. Plus his saber is purple, so that gives him Mace Windu's Pulp Fiction powers. I take my statement back... Revan lays a mushroom cloud on anyone except Mace. Y'know, that one head of his also does look a lot like ol' Macie...could it be??? Could Revan and Mace be distant relatives? As impressive as Mace was, after having read Stover's novels (Shatterpoint, R.O.T.S.), I'm not convinced he couldn't generally be beaten in a few ways. But this will detract from the thread, though I'd gladly invite a discussion elsewhere. Privately or in another thread on this, should you care. So far as Revan vs Mace... That's a pretty tough one to call. I'd say a it would be fought to a standstill. As to Mace's conneciton with pulp fiction: "MMM-HMM! This _IS_ a tasty burger!" I'm gonna see if I can try a comparison of these force users power, Nihilus=ultimate power apparently, Which would have gotten him so badly in need of sustinance that eventually there would be nothing that could sustain him anywhere. He'd starve to death...similarly that is sort of what happened to him already... Which raises some questions like if Exile had fought him when he was stronger, would the exile have even stood a chance? If it was all strategic manipulation and timing, whose to say one of the masters could not have beaten him from being too weak from self consumption? Exile=much less powerful than Nihilus, Exile didn't need to match his power, considering the Exile was the catalyst for Malachor V and the basis origin for Nihilus' power. Power don't mean jack if it is supposedly tied in with/originated from whom you are trying to fight. If the power is like fire, ever expanding and growing, when the fire reaches a barrier and has run out of fuel it dies, not unlike what Nihilus' problem was. Kreia=very powerful, Yet dying Sion=Immortal, Until convinced otherwise b/c he simply could not best his opponent and kept losing as well as his last shred of humanity dying for exposure. Anakin beat Durge, a nigh invincible bounty hunter. With his last minute opportunistic thinking and launching him into the sun... He beat Count Dooku, who is in the highest tier of duelists, and on Mace Windu's level. True, I don't think Vapaad had a defense against someone much more powerful using force choke and crush. In fact I'm not sure Vapaad is necessarily all it's cracked up to be. (Still it'd be awesome to use, admit it!) He also beat Asajj Ventress, who tooled several Jedi herself. True. Jar'Kai, shien backhand variant, and I'll give her Makashi, Ataru, and Shien form V. Juyo might be a tad much generous--maybe pieces of it. Powers wise seemed lacking--but I'm not sure what exactly she possessed in this area. Well, actually I'd say if she knew a force form it'd be Potency--very hasteful and sloppy. This is something you on the "other side of the fence" have to come to accept, that canon will intrude in these discussions, it always will. If you truly want to discount any canon at all, then my PnP character RedHawke could wipe the floor with all of them, Jedi and Sith combined... And my custom "Mister" character equally if you want to take it into the M.U.G.E.N. arena. I think it's rather nice that the G spot wins out in the end.... The doctor is in the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 I think it's rather nice that the G spot wins out in the end.... *Sound of Red brain falling into the gutter next to Jae's is heard...* Never thought of it exactly that way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten-96 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I think it's rather nice that the G spot wins out in the end.... THE WINNAH!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrPhil2501 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Revan: Bad ass bitch Anakin: Whiny little bitch No competition. Revan could kick anybodies ass anyday. He's the Star Wars Chuck Norris. 'Nuff sed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Graffiti Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 ^^^ I'm pretty sure that the Star Wars Chuck Norris is Kyle Katarn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Revan: Bad ass bitch Anakin: Whiny little bitch No competition. Revan could kick anybodies ass anyday. He's the Star Wars Chuck Norris. 'Nuff sed And I'm also sure that Darth Sidious, Yoda and Luke would all beat Revan too.... But I know the Revan fanboys won't hear of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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