Bioware game chart

[Jae Onasi]

I saw this in a thread over on the social.bioware.com site and just had to share it with you all.

 

http://gza.gameriot.com/content/images/orig_320200_1_1257581825.png

[jrrtoken]

I saw it several months ago... they need to update it for ME2.

[Jae Onasi]

Heh--true that.

[ZimmMaster]

Interesting. It is certainly a way of putting the games all in a nutshell.

[Litofsky]

Nice find, Jae. Good to know that Bioware has a variety of templates off of which to create a story.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

and yet almost all their games end up being mega award winning/ classics...

[Litofsky]

and yet almost all their games end up being mega award winning/ classics...

 

That says something about the people reviewing it, now doesn't it?

[Astor]

 

Fair play to them, though - they've found a formula that works for them, and they're sticking with it.

 

Although it couldn't hurt to rock the boat on occasion.

[Ghost]

Yea, Bioware is known to create Cliche stories, but now I am just repeating what the chart says . Kotor was very cliche, even for my first time playing it, because its plot was similar to the trilogy. Today they released Bioshock 2, or so I heard, but I'm not much of a fan of that game, too creepy

[Jae Onasi]

Nice find, Jae. Good to know that Bioware has a variety of templates off of which to create a story.

Yeah, but it'll still be very enjoyable to play just the same.

[Darth InSidious]

^Not going on the banal and repetitive Mediocrity Effect.

 

and yet almost all their games end up being mega award winning/ classics...

 

Pop Idol, The X-Factor and Jerry Springer are all hugely popular programmes. Does that make them hugely good?

 

Al Gore was chosen for the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize over Irena Sendler; was he the more deserving?

[igyman]

Obviously "cliche" doesn't equal "bad". I learned this for myself last year when I designed an educational adventure game (with two more people) as a project assignment in one of my college subjects. Our story and pretty much every character in it was a parody of something someone already thought up. We had a lot of cliche stuff, but it ended up being the best game design project made thus far.

 

Think of Cameron's Avatar. The story was as cliche as it can be, but it's still a great movie, because every element is packed neatly and gives you a very entertaining whole.

[Ghost]

Touche Igyman, Avatar was kickass, even though the story was resembled by other stories like The Last Samurai, still the movie was great

[True_Avery]

Only played 3 of their game series thus far: Kotor, Mass Effect, Dragon Age.

 

Kotor was one of the first western RPGs I ever played and its what brought my attention to the genre. Was a shooter fan before. This was before I was aware of the cliches, so the story and twist blew my ****ing mind out of my head in my first play through and instantly loved it from then on.

 

Dragon Age was alright, but I never finished it. It is on my to-do list. My problem is not with the story and characters as much as it is the gameplay itself but that aside I had fun while playing it. I hope to have a better opinion of it after a few patches have been implemented. Cliched to all hell, but really if you care about cliches then you're only hurting yourself.

 

Mass Effect... love it. No major shocks or twists like K1, but love it regardless. Really, if you don't at least like it... or tolerate it then I question why you would touch anything related to sci-fi. A few of you are obviously rolling your eyes, but I'm having fun playing the game and I guess you're having fun being angry?

 

As far as I'm concerned, Sci-fi space/fantasy is built upon cliches. No matter how many games you list off to me and by who *cough* Avellone *cough* it'll still be a cliche ridden mess and, as a whole package, be mediocre compared to everything else in its genre. If the story sucks, then the gameplay is going to rock. If the story rocks... chances are the gameplay is going to be like watching paint dry. The exception to this is Bethesda, whom are masters at both and neither.

 

It is one of, if not the most cliche ridden genre(s) of them all. If not that, then at least the genre(s) that promote(s) the most idea stealing. Most, if not all, Space Sci-fi can be tracked back to Star Wars/Trek and Warhammer 40k and most fantasy can be rooted to Warhammer, D&D, and/or Tolkien.

 

Saying something in Science/Fantasy Fiction is mediocre or cliche is like explaining to me that water is wet.

[Totenkopf]

Given that its always easier to criticize than create, what would people like to see in a game that doesn't seem like the umpteenth revisiting of a stale cliche (yet still have enough appeal for a broad audience....someone has to pay for all the work ). What games have people here played that didn't seem (or at lest not horridly so) cliched? What would you like to see in game that would make it more appealing to you (beyond saying something pointless like..."ya, know, something original for a change")?

[Darth Avlectus]

Sadly I'm seeing a structure not all that different from a megaman game in every one of these games...albeit a storyline attached.

 

Latter original series to X series, and partially the Zero series:

 

Prologue

Intro level

Level Select of numerous stages/choose where to go

Interval in the middle or thereabouts (if you want/depends on volume played)

Finish up level select phase and enter final phase or phases.

Finale

Epiogue

 

Even the Castlevania series adopted this. People say MM is crap--yet it stubbornly hangs on and refuses to go.

 

We could always go on a Mario Bros. structure--any takers? No?

 

Or go by a 'phantom 2040' structure, and having up to 40 different endings.

 

Is it just me, or... is it like gaming companies are runninge out of new and original ideas? Or maybe there are winning formulas?

 

Just tossing it out there...

[Q]

Yeah, I've seen this before. Bioware games are usually fun in spite of the formulaic plots and characters, though, and fun is why we waste so much time playing these games, right?

[True_Avery]

Is it just me, or... is it like gaming companies are runninge out of new and original ideas? Or maybe there are winning formulas?

 

Just tossing it out there...

At face value, yes.

 

However, from what I know of how these companions make their judgment calls... its all about money. Stock. What sells, and what doesn't.

 

Fact is, familiar things make money. This is why Mario still sells... hell, its why Nintendo still exists. Its how Sega has been holding onto life. Its why Modern Warefare 2 rocked the record books.

 

Games with "new" ideas tend to be risks for companies. There are obvious exceptions, like Portal, but then you have to look at the thousands of failures like Mirror's Edge, and most of EA's lineup before they hit rock bottom.

 

I have no doubt there are people even within the idea table circle who have ideas, stories, worlds, characters, and gameplay mechanics they would love to throw down but, especially in the downing economy, just cannot find the funding for because anything "new" is always a financial risk. You're seeing a lot of these people make the games themselves then host them on Xbox Live and Steam for modest prices.

 

Part of the blame goes on the company, but most of it sits on the shoulders of the consumer. Customer knows best, and if the customer is going to shell out money to keep Mario Kart in the top 10 every month for 3 years then they are obviously going to keep making Mario Kart. Seen the mature and more selective games on the Wii like No More Heroes? They bombed. Why? Because people did not buy them because the average gamer is more interested in Mario than a title they've never seen before.

 

"Original" stuff is around, but you wont see it in the mainstream. Better luck looking at new arrivals in Steam and Live, and even some on the DS... but, again, they don't sell well.

 

I'll find the article later, but they found that M games are nearly unaffected by the recession because their primary market is the core gamer. Essentially, casual gamers make up most of the market and they don't buy as often. Now that the casual gamers have bought the only Guitar Hero they're going to get... recession in the gaming market. Both financially and originality.

 

Best example of this I can think of atm is Brutal Legend. I love this game, but it got hit pretty hard in the review and pocket book. I thought it was funny, fun, and rate it one of my favorite of last year. It's odd gameplay, story, and the fact it was one of the few original IPs of last year pretty much spelled it's doom. Instead, Modern Warfare 2 ate the market alive and there is nothing more cliche than a military shooter.

[jrrtoken]

What games have people here played that didn't seem (or at lest not horridly so) cliched?

Deus Ex, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment, VtM:B, Fallout 1&2, System Shock 1&2, BioShock, Myst & Co., Machinarium, World of Goo, KotOR 2, NWN2 MotB, Tron 2.0...

 

Need more proof?

What would you like to see in game that would make it more appealing to you (beyond saying something pointless like..."ya, know, something original for a change")?

Games with settings that have been seldom used (i.e never)... games that actively allow the player to manipulate and control the game, rather than the game boxing oneself into pre-determined sequences that are supposed to "be fun", rather than the player making his own "fun" by using a myriad of objects at-hand... some enthralling writing also helps put the player into the game and feel impassioned by it, and not just making feel like an avatar-acting exercise.

[mimartin]

What Avery wrote...

 

KOTOR was my first experience with a RPG too.

 

Since then I have played Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2. I have complaints about all of them, but overall I have been more than satisfied that I have gotten my money worth out of all of these game. The only reason I’m remotely considering TOR is BioWare’s name is attached to it. Otherwise a MMORPG hold no interest with me.

 

While I readily admit BioWare’s dialogue and plot elements are cringe worthy at times. Like Evil Q wrote they are fun and a fun waste of time is what I am looking for in a game.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

That says something about the people reviewing it, now doesn't it?

Postulate: the laypeople always have the most fun.

 

Pop Idol, The X-Factor and Jerry Springer are all hugely popular programmes. Does that make them hugely good?

Never heard of any, but as to your gist, see above.

 

Kotor was one of the first western RPGs I ever played and its what brought my attention to the genre. Was a shooter fan before. This was before I was aware of the cliches, so the story and twist blew my ****ing mind out of my head in my first play through and instantly loved it from then on.

KOTOR was my first experience with a RPG too.

Same here.

 

Cliched to all hell, but really if you care about cliches then you're only hurting yourself.

 

A few of you are obviously rolling your eyes, but I'm having fun playing the game and I guess you're having fun being angry?

^ new favorite quote.

Cliche!

Answer:

All things are wearisome,

more than one can say.

The eye never has enough of seeing,

nor the ear its fill of hearing.

 

What has been will be again,

what has been done will be done again;

there is nothing new under the sun.

 

Is there anything of which one can say,

"Look! This is something new"?

It was here already, long ago;

it was here before our time.

Translation: If you go scrutinize everything, in reality everything sucks. But unless you like being angry and whiny, just enjoy what you have. Because loving causes enjoyment, and makes you happy, while hating just makes you angry.

 

I'm not going to bother with long-winded, moany, reviews about the craptitude of <X>, because i prefer being happy and enjoying something rather than hating it, and being chronically annoyed.

 

[Darth Avlectus]

Warning: This may jump into Kavar's territory if it doesn't drive people away.

 

What Avery wrote...

 

KOTOR was my first experience with a RPG too.

 

Since then I have played Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2. I have complaints about all of them, but overall I have been more than satisfied that I have gotten my money worth out of all of these game. The only reason I’m remotely considering TOR is BioWare’s name is attached to it. Otherwise a MMORPG hold no interest with me.

 

While I readily admit BioWare’s dialogue and plot elements are cringe worthy at time. Like Evil Q wrote they are fun and a fun waste of time is what I am looking for in a game.

 

Hn. Well I'll be a blue arsed jackass. There _IS_ a relationship between consumers (new and existing), and formula manufactured games.

 

Why didn't I notice this until just now? Well, better late than never I suppose.

 

At face value, yes.

 

However, from what I know of how these companions make their judgment calls... its all about money. Stock. What sells, and what doesn't.

 

Fact is, familiar things make money. This is why Mario still sells... hell, its why Nintendo still exists. Its how Sega has been holding onto life. Its why Modern Warefare 2 rocked the record books.

 

True. Still, it's a cyclical sort of thing. Basically until it has had enough time to reinvent itself. This tends to work best when the economy is down, but generally only mediocre when it is up.

 

New tends to work as new technology emerges regardless of economy or so it would seem.

 

...but alas...

 

Games with "new" ideas tend to be risks for companies. There are obvious exceptions, like Portal, but then you have to look at the thousands of failures like Mirror's Edge, and most of EA's lineup before they hit rock bottom.

 

I suppose trial and error is inevitable. Even innovative cycles have to either tone down at some point, or in some way find stability. Consequently successes are only short lived and it isn't everyday something truly fundamental is uncovered.

 

Still, is there not at least some kind of pre-measure for success when charting new territory? (Not that I have much a problem with the fiscally conservative, tried-and-true, solid fundamental approach, mind you.)

 

Such a thing might require research into prior trends and reactions to various mediums (I.E. books, movies, plays, etc. and what they were, their formula, factor in the times they were living in), but I'd think it'd be worth it in the long run. Cross medium references over the past if you will (if such a thing even exists in one form or another beyond a said point).

 

Tough I can already guess what you're gonna say:

 

1) fundamental discoveries often require a radical departure from known methods (hence most attempts wind up in the trash heap)

2) That's a big IF

3) applicable relevance in data is a shot in the dark if you can even manage a comparison that holds together

 

I have no doubt there are people even within the idea table circle who have ideas, stories, worlds, characters, and gameplay mechanics they would love to throw down but, especially in the downing economy, just cannot find the funding for because anything "new" is always a financial risk. You're seeing a lot of these people make the games themselves then host them on Xbox Live and Steam for modest prices.

 

You mean like a low risk running ground/breeding nest for new innovators?

Like what people are trying to do with GMOD? This is relatively new, though yes, I can see how it is taking off if slowly.

 

It already has manifested itself to a lesser degree in the form of the WWE SMACKDOWN! series with their custom characters. Others have tried hard to replicate this feature--only Bioware seems to have been really successful at doing this without it taking away signifcantly from gameplay.

 

Actually I think MK armageddon did it for a fighter platform, but the Midway label seems to have "fallen under the surface" lately as a fighter b/c Marvel, and SNK have teamed up with Capcom and..uhh....you know the story if you played an MVC or Capcom vs SNK. After 10 years MVC2 is back in PS network, (the Wii network?), and XBL. It doesn't appear to have died down at all.

 

Back to my point, it's an open platform for experimentation by technically inclined people. I'm hopeful but ultimately cynical b/c I know most people with the wherewithal either lack resolve to do it, or standout creativity to make something that isn't a clone.

 

Are you sure this would take off? If yes, how so?

 

 

Part of the blame goes on the company, but most of it sits on the shoulders of the consumer. Customer knows best, and if the customer is going to shell out money to keep Mario Kart in the top 10 every month for 3 years then they are obviously going to keep making Mario Kart. Seen the mature and more selective games on the Wii like No More Heroes? They bombed. Why? Because people did not buy them because the average gamer is more interested in Mario than a title they've never seen before.

 

"Original" stuff is around, but you wont see it in the mainstream. Better luck looking at new arrivals in Steam and Live, and even some on the DS... but, again, they don't sell well.

 

Admittedly, while you have a point, often times it is (or was) case that there is only so much to choose from so consumers will just simply go with what's there that they like best.

 

I suppose that's being rendered invalid now that they have an outlet with which to make new innovative changes. If they don't like it, do something about it. This medium is still pretty new, though. As always, "we'll see". Once the novelty of innovation wears off, the pool will shallow and the options will thin. Even where you have an open ended "snadbox" medium.

 

Let's face it: commitment, hard work, AND talent at the same time is very hard to come by--even you pointed that out. Game companies are ruthless and quick to snatch up those gemstones ...if they don't become foundations for companies themselves.

 

 

I'll find the article later, but they found that M games are nearly unaffected by the recession because their primary market is the core gamer. Essentially, casual gamers make up most of the market and they don't buy as often. Now that the casual gamers have bought the only Guitar Hero they're going to get... recession in the gaming market. Both financially and originality.

 

Hm. Interesting. Do post if you can find.

 

Best example of this I can think of atm is Brutal Legend. I love this game, but it got hit pretty hard in the review and pocket book. I thought it was funny, fun, and rate it one of my favorite of last year. It's odd gameplay, story, and the fact it was one of the few original IPs of last year pretty much spelled it's doom. Instead, Modern Warfare 2 ate the market alive and there is nothing more cliche than a military shooter.

 

Most people I know with a PS3 got one copy at least. The 360, not so much.

[Q]

Translation: If you go scrutinize everything, in reality everything sucks.

Ecclesiastes Chapter 1. It's the Bible's way of saying that the only way for life not to suck is to pretend that it doesn't.

 

The only way that I can do that is if I stay stoned 24/7. I lived like that for 10 years, and I came to the conclusion that I'd rather be miserable. At least it's real.

[Astrotoy7]

Pop Idol, The X-Factor and Jerry Springer are all hugely popular programmes. Does that make them hugely good?

 

Talent shows and a chance to laugh or lament at the misfortune of others were popular milennia before TV.

 

Somehow, in your vaunted lifetime, I don't think you are going to eradicate their appeal

 

 

* * *

 

As for the chart... I don't think being a war hero and commander of a spaceship qualify as 'humble origins'

 

mtfbwya

[The Betrayer]

Talent shows and a chance to laugh or lament at the misfortune of others were popular milennia before TV.

 

Somehow, in your vaunted lifetime, I don't think you are going to eradicate their appeal

 

 

* * *

 

As for the chart... I don't think being a war hero and commander of a spaceship qualify as 'humble origins'

 

mtfbwya

 

Precisely why it's in red, my dear padawan.