jonathan7 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 In the complexities of the Middle East Peace process, I do truly sit on the fence, in that I think both the "Palestinians" and the Israeli state are guilty of various crimes against each other. I believe the certain people will conveniently ignore data which conflicts with their opinion. What I think has to be said is the Palestinians are guilty of terrorism, and I think Israel is guilty of varying crimes against Palestinians my source is this; Click Me - a site run by the Israeli Intelligentsia, but which catalogues crimes committed in the "Palestinian Territories". (Unless of course you happen to be Garfield, in which case this set of Israeli's are and I quote - "anti-Israeli). I post this now, before the obligatory the "UN" is biased argument springs forth as regardless of the Arab block in the UN; Israel does commit crimes in Palestinian "territories". It strikes me that this article; Un Row threatens to sink Middle East Peace process, stinks of emotional blackmail, with the Israeli government trying to manipulate foreign governments to acquiesce to their point of view... Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediAthos Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 It does seem like the Israelis are being a bit stubborn. I did not read the full text of the UN report, but if what the story says is right then all they were asking was for Israel to conduct and investigation and review the events surrounding the actions in question. If they weren't targeting civilians there would be no issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 This has got me really upset. I'm getting very tired of hearing genocide used as an excuse to commit more genocide. All the time I hear Israeli's crying out for the eradication of Arabs, doesn't really fit along with their "Never again" ideas. Why is it that the Israeli government should get away with killing 1,000+ Palestinians, but 13 Israeli's dead is a travesty that must be avenged with blood? The Israeli's wouldn't even be dead had those tanks not rolled into the city square. Yes, there are terrorist groups and guerilla fighters aligned with the Palestinian struggle, but does that mean anyone that wants fair treatment of Palestinians is a terrorist? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. What needs to be done is the criminals should be punished, not the women, children, and seniors who are simply trying to enjoy their day. If the Israeli government doesn't want to be accused of war crimes, they shouldn't commit any. As well, there are plenty of legitimate targets to attack, instead they attack civilian targets like popular hangouts for women and children. They decide they don't want to make peace talks if they are called on their ****, sounds incredibly childish and I think we in the west should call off allegiance to defend Israel. They've done nothing but create their own problems by furthering the death count of innocent lives. It's a shame that 4 million Jews died from prejudicial killings only for their children and grandchildren to make the same mistake against another group of people. Then again, maybe I'm biased in that my family learned from that tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I think that a lot of these conflicts between countries would be solved if people consider what it would be like to put themselves in the other person's shoes. The solution is this: Learn how to share and agree to disagree. They're both wrong, and they both need a stern talking to from leaders of other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I think that a lot of these conflicts between countries would be solved if people consider what it would be like to put themselves in the other person's shoes. The solution is this: Learn how to share and agree to disagree. They're both wrong, and they both need a stern talking to from leaders of other countries. They've had stern talkings to, and if they haven't learnt to share after all this time, it's doubtful that they will any time soon. And, given their track records, they'd probably disagree about agreeing to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth333 Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I'm getting very tired of hearing genocide used as an excuse to commit more genocide. All the time I hear Israeli's crying out for the eradication of Arabs, doesn't really fit along with their "Never again" ideas. Why is it that the Israeli government should get away with killing 1,000+ Palestinians, but 13 Israeli's dead is a travesty that must be avenged with blood? The Israeli's wouldn't even be dead had those tanks not rolled into the city square. Yes, there are terrorist groups and guerilla fighters aligned with the Palestinian struggle, but does that mean anyone that wants fair treatment of Palestinians is a terrorist? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. What needs to be done is the criminals should be punished, not the women, children, and seniors who are simply trying to enjoy their day. If the Israeli government doesn't want to be accused of war crimes, they shouldn't commit any. As well, there are plenty of legitimate targets to attack, instead they attack civilian targets like popular hangouts for women and children. They decide they don't want to make peace talks if they are called on their ****, sounds incredibly childish and I think we in the west should call off allegiance to defend Israel. They've done nothing but create their own problems by furthering the death count of innocent lives. It's a shame that 4 million Jews died from prejudicial killings only for their children and grandchildren to make the same mistake against another group of people. QFE. Disagreeing with Israel when they do stupid and/or unacceptable things isn't anti-semitism. Idiocy comes from both sides in this case. Human stupidity ftw! Humanity will likely not need any external intervention to doom itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Humanity will likely not need any external intervention to doom itself. You misanthrope! Unfortunately, I'm too much of a cynic to find any real fault with your sentiment. Frankly, I'm ambivalent about Israel. The Palestinians, however, don't rate sympathy from me either. If they want some kind of "peace" w/Israel, they can't let Hamas or any of the other extremist groups operate w/impunity and use them as shields. The anti-zionist Arab groups use them as a bludgeon against Israel and the Israelis strike back and more Palestinians die. They need to wake up and start turning on these groups themselves. Till they do, they'll merely continue to be victims in a power struggle for control of what amounts to a small piece of land. My attitude can be somewhat summed up by the expression "a pox on both their houses". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ping Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Human stupidity ftw! That actually reminds me of this quote from Albert Einstein: There are two things that are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe. Anyways, I think both sides are being stubborn. IMO, doesn't look like they're going to change their opinions on each other. Maybe in a hundred years, but not now. Actually, turn the one hundred years into never. Both sides have done wrong, but that doesn't give them an excuse to start killing others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverNight Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Eh, while I'm traditionally more on Israel's side in this 'debate' -major difference between suicide bombings and military strikes- I get tired of some of the stuff they do. However, looking over the articles, I'm with them again. What the resolution does according to the article is say that "Israel targeted civilians with military force, investigation must be made". My issue with that is that it is precisely as the Israeli's said, if they can't target civilians they can't defend themselves. Why? Because Hamas and all those other wonderful groups just so happen to be civilian, not military. Therefore, they kill a Hamas thug then they've just targeted a civilian and must thus be punished by the UN. If only the Arab world would stop trying to wipe Israel off of the face of the Earth, would make it a bit easier to live in that region. (Makes me glad I'm not there!) And, to satisfy J7, THE UN IS BIASED!!!!!1111one111!!!!!111 Happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share Posted October 18, 2009 Eh, while I'm traditionally more on Israel's side in this 'debate' -major difference between suicide bombings and military strikes- I get tired of some of the stuff they do. However, looking over the articles, I'm with them again. What the resolution does according to the article is say that "Israel targeted civilians with military force, investigation must be made". My issue with that is that it is precisely as the Israeli's said, if they can't target civilians they can't defend themselves. Why? Because Hamas and all those other wonderful groups just so happen to be civilian, not military. Therefore, they kill a Hamas thug then they've just targeted a civilian and must thus be punished by the UN. If only the Arab world would stop trying to wipe Israel off of the face of the Earth, would make it a bit easier to live in that region. (Makes me glad I'm not there!) And, to satisfy J7, THE UN IS BIASED!!!!!1111one111!!!!!111 Happy? Did you read the B'Tselem website though? Which is the Israeli intelligentsia website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Did you read the B'Tselem website though? Which is the Israeli intelligentsia website C'mon, Jon.........you know they are just a bunch of self-hating Jews. [sarcasm/parody mode] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 "Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known." I wonder if hearing this would have any sort of effect on the Israeli's and Palestinians to get them to stop being so idiotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 In a word........no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mur'phon Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 The Palestinians, however, don't rate sympathy from me either. If they want some kind of "peace" w/Israel, they can't let Hamas or any of the other extremist groups operate w/impunity and use them as shields. Please tell me how palestinians are *alowing* Hamas and others to use them as shields. If men with guns takes cover in your house during a fight, are you *alowing* him to use your family as shields by not either A: flee the house directly into the crosfire or B:futily trying to kick them out? They need to wake up and start turning on these groups themselves. When an outside force has occupied most of what you consider your land, you usually don't prioritize fighting an imperfect resistance. That, and this isn't Iraq, Hamas is as much a social movement as an armed group, heck they won an election easily enough. They don't masacre *their* civilians like Al-Quaida, so if you want the Palestinians to turn on them, give them something tangible up front, and promise more to come. Because now, many Palestinians are delusioned with peace talks since they don't feel they have gained much from them. Because Hamas and all those other wonderful groups just so happen to be civilian, not military. True, Hamas is by and large civilian, however their military wing is very much military the same way guerillia fighters are. I don't see anything wrong with Israel being acused of killing civilians when they kill Hamas members not from the al-Quassam brigades. Arc: Whatever you are smoking, sharing it with Israelis and Palestinians might get you the nobel peace prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Arc: Whatever you are smoking, sharing it with Israelis and Palestinians might get you the nobel peace prize. I figure that not everything in what I quoted is relevent to the situation, so I considered only quoting various portions of it, but minimalizing/paraphrasing takes away the impact. It's too bad that people like Martin Luther King, Carl Sagan, and Mahatma Gandhi aren't around anymore to offer wise and uniting advice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mur'phon Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 There are people offering just as *wise* advice right now, trouble is, it often doesen't work terribly well in complicated situations like Palestine/Israel is. Just as modern India was born in a bloodbath despite Gandhis efforts before he died, a *solution* in Israel/Palestine is unlikely to be painless no matter how wise the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Please tell me how palestinians are *allowing* Hamas and others to use them as shields. If men with guns takes cover in your house during a fight' date=' are you *allowing* him to use your family as shields by not either A: flee the house directly into the crosfire or B:futily trying to kick them out?[/quote'] As regards Israel and the Palestinian problem, the terrorists appear to have the tacit cooperation of their "victims". If they don't wish to continue to be caught in the middle, they need to turn on Hamas and Hezbelloh themselves. Will that be easy? No. But it will go a long way toward demonstrating they are sincere in their desire for a peaceful settlement. To your second question, yes they are. The alternative isn't much better, but who said life was fair. When an outside force has occupied most of what you consider your land, you usually don't prioritize fighting an imperfect resistance. That, and this isn't Iraq, Hamas is as much a social movement as an armed group, heck they won an election easily enough. They don't masacre *their* civilians like Al-Quaida, so if you want the Palestinians to turn on them, give them something tangible up front, and promise more to come. Because now, many Palestinians are disillusioned with peace talks since they don't feel they have gained much from them. Pay extortion and promise more. Got it. Still, last I checked, to the victors go the spoils. Not fair, but again, life's not fair. True, Hamas is by and large civilian, however their military wing is very much military the same way guerillia fighters are. I don't see anything wrong with Israel being acused of killing civilians when they kill Hamas members not from the al-Quassam brigades. Not much different, really, than killing support troops instead of just line doggies. Frankly, as long as both sides remain intransigent, nothing will happen. Tell me though, how many countries give up territory important for their physical security in the face of implaccable enemies that won't rest till that country seizes to exist. Arc: Whatever you are smoking, sharing it with Israelis and Palestinians might get you the nobel peace prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rake Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Terrorist is what the big army calls the little army . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Avlectus Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'd normally be more supporting of Israel, but I'm not there so I don't know. I grow tired of them and their stuff. Pakistan. I wish they would knock it the **** off as well and quit hiding amongst their citizens, innocent people, like cowards. I often think Ozzy's song Revelation: Mother Earth alludes to this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Terrorist is what the big army calls the little army . Freedom fighters is what people w/Stockholm Syndrome call terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverNight Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Terrorist is what the big army calls the little army. Did you seriously just say that? S: (n) terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act (the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear) Source Sure, I can TOTALLY see how the "big army" calls a small army terrorists.[/sarcasm] Learn what it means before spitting out useless sayings that have been pushed on you by pop-culture. In case you haven't noticed from that definition, there's a major difference between a soldier and a terrorist. A soldier is a member of the land component of national armed forces; whereas a soldier hired for service in a foreign army would be termed a mercenary. source Unfortunately I couldn't find one that involved following rules of war, but that's the difference between soldiers and terrorists, one has to follow rules -when both parties agree to them- the other just kills anybody (s)he can. @J7: Haven't read the first article yet, once I have the time I'll get around to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 i agree dropping bombs is morally superior to suicide bombing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I can't honestly sympathize with either side in this. The Israelis are just as barbaric and moronic as the Palestinians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommycat Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Hehe I have the best sollution. The Israelies should like it. Its taken from king Solomon. and its a method I've personally used with kids. If they can't agree to share the land, we should just take all of it and neither of them can play with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 What, you mean beat the Iranians to the punch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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