Losing My Religion (LONG!!!)

[JediMaster12]

Why must I think that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, as some say because they believe in the Genesis account literally, in order to come to faith (or continue in faith)? I have a point/counterpoint for you to consider:

 

1) "If all of the Bible isn't LITERALLY true, then none of it must be true."

 

-1) Some people like to compare the Bible to a math book, so I'll run with that analogy. If there is a mistake in my math book, does that make the entire text garbage? Are all of the problems mistakenly construed or wrong? Are the theories presented a bunch of hogwash? Of course not. In a math book, one "bad apple" (error) does not "spoil the whole barrel". If some of the Bible isn't literally true, that doesn't make God's love any less valid. Right?

 

The cynic in me says that the Bible was created by man and therefore is a product of man even though several books and the faith itself claim that it is spoken by God. However stingerhs makes a valid point in that you have to look at the Bible as a whole and that to focus on only a part of it is foolhardy. Of course there are instances where the fundamentals latch only on to certain parts to make their case...

 

To me, the Bible is one history text that has been shredded up, case in point, it is missing some 40 generations and in the Bible's sense, a generation is 40 years. If you want a somewhat complete history, you would have to go beyond the officially recognized text. I've read pieces of the gnostic and the apocrypha, etc and I have even read stuff that would have gotten me thrown out for heresy but I wanted a complete picture. Of course it isn't a discussion you would hear at the dinner table as my folks would have lined up to tar and feather me. My point is though that you have to go beyond what is accepted and find your own answers.

[purifier]

My point is though that you have to go beyond what is accepted and find your own answers.

 

 

^Good point, well said. And no one in this godforsaken world can really tell you exactly what your suppose to believe and what your not suppose to believe. We're all in the same boat and it's up to each individual to find his/her own truth.

 

 

 

 

@Tysyacha: I've learned over the years that if you want to know the real truth and you continuously seek for the real answers about mankind, god, spirituality, whatever it is you really want to know, the truth will eventually find you.

 

And what's that old saying we often hear?......."The truth shall set you free."

 

Just something to think about.

[Tysyacha]

I guess the problem that I have with sticking to a completely-literal view of, and interpretation of, the Bible is that I once DID that, and I'm not going down that road again. If I'm supposed to believe the Bible in a literal sense, that leaves me no room for "finding my own answers" as you put it, JM12. Once upon a time, not so very long ago, I believed the Bible far, FAR more than I believed in science, philosophy, or anything that "flawed humanity" created. It saved me the trouble of doubting, and of asking questions.

 

The more I clung to a literal interpretation of the Bible, and to its absolute infallibility, the guiltier and more ashamed I felt when I DID start doubting and asking questions. After all, as a fundamentalist saying goes, "God said it. I read it. That settles it." Why torture my puny little human mind, which was considered worthless next to God and Jesus, with petty little doubts? The Bible was there to be trusted more than one's family, one's country, one's self. If the Bible wasn't God Himself, it almost could have been--according to what I once believed. I fell into a downward spiral of doubting, confessing, and repenting only to doubt again--with even harder questions to consider.

 

I kept thinking of myself, despairingly, as "two-faced" and "lukewarm"--to be spat straight out of God's mouth in the End of Days. That might still happen to me. However, I'd rather ask the questions and doubt than believe without knowing why, or without understanding what it is that God really wants. I find it creepy, the way I was back then when I never doubted. I marched on resolutely, but toward WHAT? I never wanted to ask that, because I felt I never needed to or would need to in the future. Now that I have, I find a sense of inner peace within myself in the midst of all this chaos. It's just a little tiny MUSTARD SEED of peace, but it is there. Especially when I'm not at church. That may sound awful, and completely un-Christian, but I don't care.

 

If I'm going to go to Hell because of all this, so be it, but I'd rather do that than be a Robot for Jesus . Some people actually call themselves that...

[jonathan7]

I guess the problem that I have with sticking to a completely-literal view of, and interpretation of, the Bible is that I once DID that, and I'm not going down that road again. If I'm supposed to believe the Bible in a literal sense, that leaves me no room for "finding my own answers" as you put it, JM12. Once upon a time, not so very long ago, I believed the Bible far, FAR more than I believed in science, philosophy, or anything that "flawed humanity" created. It saved me the trouble of doubting, and of asking questions.

 

Ty, just to make an observation, but when does Jesus ever teach from a "literal" point of view? He tells stories and parables which cause people to think for themselves. People want things to be black and white, but the world isn't just different shades of grey but multi-coloured.

 

I'm going to pull no punches here, one of the biggest problems the Church faces is it is full of Pharisees which is ironic considering these are the very people Jesus fought against. The Church however exsists for a reason, perhaps I can best illustrate this with a quote from Dan Browns: Angels and Demons (any books denounced by Christians I generally automatically read). It is as a warning a little long, but WELL WORTH THE READ. With relation to the book let me give you a brief overview;

 

 

So this is all a little far fetched but there is a secret group called the Illuminati who are out to destroy the Catholic Church and have put a secret anti-matter bomb in the Vatican, they have assassinated various members of the Church up until this point. A new Pope is about to be chosen, however during a press statement the guy in charge of the office between Popes and voting has the following to say:

 

 

To the Illuminati, and to those of science, let me say this. You have won the war.

 

The wheels have been in motion for a long time. Your victory has been inevitable. Never before has it been as obvious as it is at this moment. Science is the new god.

 

Medicine, electronic communications, space travel, genetic manipulation… these are the miracles about which we now tell our children. These are the miracles we herald as proof that science will bring us the answers. The ancient stories of immaculate conceptions, burning bushes, and parting seas are no longer relevant. God has become obsolete. Science has won the battle. We concede.

 

But science’s victory has cost every one of us. And it has cost us deeply.

 

Science may have alleviated the miseries of disease and drudgery and provided an array of gadgetry for our entertainment and convenience, but is has left us in a world with out wonder. Our sunsets have been reduced to wavelengths and frequencies. The complexities of the universe have been shredded into mathematical equations. Even our self-worth as human beings has been destroyed. Science proclaims that Planet Earth and its inhabitants are a meaningless speck in the grand scheme. A cosmic accident. Even the technology that promises to unite us, divides us. Each of us is now electronically connected to the globe, and yet we feel utterly alone. We are bombarded with violence, division, fracture, and betrayal. Skepticism has become a virtue. Cynicism and demand for proof has become enlightened thought. Is it any wonder that humans now feel more depressed and defeated than they have at any point in human history? Does science hold anything sacred? Science looks for answers by probing our unborn fetuses. Science even presumes to rearrange our own DNA. It shatters God’s world into smaller and smaller pieces in quest of meaning… and all it finds is more questions.

 

The ancient war between science and religion as over. You have won. But you have not won fairly. You have not won by providing answers. You have won by so radically reorienting our society that the truths we once saw as signposts now seem inapplicable. Religion cannot keep up. Scientific growth is exponential. It feeds on itself like a virus. Every new breakthrough opens doors for new breakthroughs. Mankind took thousands of years to progress from the wheel to the car. Yet only decades from the car into space. Now we measure scientific progress in weeks. We are spinning out of control. The rift between us grows deeper and deeper, and as religion is left behind, people find themselves in a spiritual void. We cry out for meaning. And believe me, we do cry out. WE see UFOs, engage in channeling, spirit contact, out-of-body experiences, mindquests — all these eccentric ideas have a scientific veneer, but they are unashamedly irrational. They are the desperate cry of the modern soul, lonely and tormented, crippled by its own enlightenment and its inability to accept meaning in anything removed from technology.

 

Science, you say, will save us. Science, I say, has destroyed us. Since the days of Galileo, the church has tried to slow the relentless march of science, sometimes with misguided means, but always with benevolent intention. Even so, the temptations are too great for man to resist. I warn you, look around yourselves. The promises of science have not been kept. Promises of efficiency and simplicity have bred nothing but pollution and chaos. We are a fractured and frantic species… moving down a path of destruction.

 

Who is this God science? Who is the God who offers his people power but no moral framework to tell you how to use that power? What kind of God gives a child fire but does not warn the child of its dangers? The language of science comes with no signposts about good and bad. Science textbooks tell us how to create a nuclear reaction, and yet they contain no chapter asking us if it is a good or a bad idea.

 

To science, I say this. The church is tired. We are exhausted from trying to be your sign posts. Our resources are drying up from our campaign to be the voice of balance as you plow blindly on in your quest for smaller chips and larger profits. We ask not why you will not govern yourselves, but how can you? Your world moves so fast that if you stop even for an instant to consider the implications of your actions, someone more efficient will whip past you in a blur. So you move on. You proliferate weapons of mass destruction, but it is the Pope who travels the world beseeching leaders to use restraint. You clone living creatures, but it is the church reminding us to consider the moral implications of our actions. You encourage people to interact on phones, video screens, and computers, but it is the church who opens its doors and reminds us to commune in person as we were meant to do. You even murder unborn babies in the name of research that will save lives. Again, it is the church who points the fallacy of that reasoning.

 

And all the while, you proclaim the church is ignorant. But who is more ignorant? The man who cannot define lightning, or the man who does not respect its awesome power? This church is reaching out to you. Reaching out to everyone. And yet the more we reach, the more you push us away. Show me proof there is a God, you say. I say use your telescopes to look to the heavens, and tell me how there could not be a God! You ask what does God look like. I say, where does that question come from? The answers are one and the same. Do you not see God in you science? How can you miss Him! You proclaim that even the slightest change in the force of gravity or the weight of an atom would have rendered our universe a lifeless mist rather than our magnificent sea of heavenly bodies, and yet you fail to see God’s hand in this? Is it really so much easier to believe that we simply chose the right card from a deck of billions? Have we become so spiritually bankrupt that we would rather believe in mathematical impossibility than in a power greater than us?

 

Whether or not you believe in God, you must believe this. When we as a species abandon our trust in the power greater than us, we abandon our sense of accountability. Faith… all faiths… are admonitions that there is something we cannot understand, something to which we are accountable… With faith we are accountable to each other, to ourselves, and to a higher truth. Religion is flawed, but only because man is flawed. If the outside world could see this church as I do… looking beyond the ritual of these walls… they would see a modern miracle… a brotherhood of imperfect, simple souls wanting only to be a voice of compassion in a world spinning out of control.

 

Are we obsolete? Are these men dinosaurs? Am I? Does the world really need a voice for the poor, the weak, the oppressed, the unborn child? Do we really need souls like these who, though imperfect, spend their lives imploring each of us to read the signposts of morality and not lose our way?

 

Tonight we are perched on a precipice. None of us can afford to be apathetic. Whether you see this evil as Satan, corruption, or immorality, the dark force is alive and growing every day. Do not ignore it. The force, though mighty, is not invincible. Goodness can prevail. Listen to your hearts. Listen to God. Together we can step back from this abyss.

 

Pray with me.

 

Suffice to say I wish those Christians who criticised Dan Browns books would offer such an articulate response to others, unfortunately I think they maybe too busy wanting to burn others religious texts.

 

If you believe that we live in a universe created by a God, then the Bible cannot be any more important (or convey Gods message) any more or less than the created world we live in. That is to say that the reality we exsist in is on the same level as the Bible about what it conveys... Generally when they contradict it is because someone places one over the other.

 

The more I clung to a literal interpretation of the Bible, and to its absolute infallibility, the guiltier and more ashamed I felt when I DID start doubting and asking questions. After all, as a fundamentalist saying goes, "God said it. I read it. That settles it." Why torture my puny little human mind, which was considered worthless next to God and Jesus, with petty little doubts? The Bible was there to be trusted more than one's family, one's country, one's self. If the Bible wasn't God Himself, it almost could have been--according to what I once believed. I fell into a downward spiral of doubting, confessing, and repenting only to doubt again--with even harder questions to consider.

 

Just an observation, but after Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus that was not enough, he then had to be healed of blindness by a believer and then sought out the disciples to here what they had to say about Jesus and his life before he became the man who wrote the gospels. Paul would give a right bollocking to a lot of the American (Western) Church, I'm sure if he was alive today!

 

I kept thinking of myself, despairingly, as "two-faced" and "lukewarm"--to be spat straight out of God's mouth in the End of Days. That might still happen to me. However, I'd rather ask the questions and doubt than believe without knowing why, or without understanding what it is that God really wants. I find it creepy, the way I was back then when I never doubted. I marched on resolutely, but toward WHAT? I never wanted to ask that, because I felt I never needed to or would need to in the future. Now that I have, I find a sense of inner peace within myself in the midst of all this chaos. It's just a little tiny MUSTARD SEED of peace, but it is there. Especially when I'm not at church. That may sound awful, and completely un-Christian, but I don't care.

 

Ty, again I re-iterate Paul doubted, heck Mother Teresa doubted, not that I'm in their league but I doubt... Mother Teresa doubted her faith so much she feared being a hypocrite, as revealed by letters found/released after her death.

 

If I'm going to go to Hell because of all this, so be it, but I'd rather do that than be a Robot for Jesus . Some people actually call themselves that...

 

The kind of people who are "Robots for Jesus" are far futher from the kingdom that pretty much anyone else as by all accounts they will be Pharisees.

 

Can't remember if I left you with this quote before but I'll give it again;

 

"While spiritual insight or faith is one valid measure in spiritual matters, true spiritual insight never directly contradicts valid intellectual insight or facts in the physical world. Faith may go beyond reason, but does not go against it. It never blatantly contradicts the facts which we perceive with our God-given common sense. Faith and fact point in a single direction. Whey they do not, something is seriously wrong…A willingness to accept facts as they exist, and to learn to use them to test the views one holds rather than falling back on subjective experience or rationalizations, is the first step towards discovering genuine truth." (Charles Larson, By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus, pp. 177-178)

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

How do you know they don't know God better than yourself? Just an observation, but I don't think any of us can really state how well anyone else knows God.

I think I can actually state quite frankly that nobody knows God better than anybody knows God, and those that really think they know God have deceived themselves a great deal. Which God are you speaking of jonathan? There are many legitimate and "believable" Gods for the peoples of our planet... If someone claims to know "Jesus" but God is actually JVHV, or Krishna, or Bahá'u'lláh, where does that put us? If a Christian claims he knows God better than a Shinto, I will argue that Christian is self-deceived, or being misled by Natasha (spell it drawkcab).

 

I will say that no one knows God. This can be argued, but convincingly??????

 

It is all well and good to be a Christian scholar. You can know your religion quite well and potentially not know a single correct thing about God. Same goes for any scholar of any other religion. There is nothing concrete! There are no scientific examples! There is conjecture, and there is intuition, and those are valuable individually but prove nothing.

Kavars is as much a place for the exchange of idea's so feel free, I don't think its really possible to force your ideas on others in an internet forum unless your name is Garfield.

Don't say that name two more times or we are all in trouble :S

 

Logic.... reminds me of The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe. "What are they teaching kids these days?"

[Jae Onasi]

((Paragon Interrupt)) I have a question for all of you: Must all of the Bible--every story, every account, every word and syllable--be LITERALLY true in order for it to be true? I personally do not believe so.

Depends on if you're using an English interpretation or going with the original Hebrew/Greek. For instance, in the Hebrew in Genesis, 'day' can mean a literal 24 hour day, or a long 'age', as in the wording used "back in my grandfather's day". So, I have no issues as a result with the wording of Genesis having things created in 6 days or 6 'ages', and God using the process described (if a bit crudely) by evolutionary science.

 

Who cares if it was done in 6 days or 6 billion years, anyway, when there's so much work to do down here on earth for people who are hurting or need help NOW? Jesus didn't debate creationism, He stayed busy healing sick hearts and sick bodies, feeding the poor, and talking about how to relate to our fellow people God with love.

 

If there was no literal Noah's Ark, and if the sun did not literally stand still,

Well, if God can create an entire universe, I suppose He can stop the sun for a few hours, or protect an ark if He wanted to, or create a flood if He wanted to. He made the rules, He can break them every now and then. That being said, I don't get hung up on it. The core message is still 'Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself'. For those who get weirded out by the 2 apparently differing accounts of creation in Genesis, first, look at the Hebrew and get the more exact wording (the differences are subtle, but important), and second, understand the intent. The account in Genesis 1 is designed to portray the awesome power of God, a God that can speak a single phrase and has the power to bring into being an entire universe. The other account a couple chapters later is far more anthropomorphic, and shows God's interactions with His created beings--we humans. It is designed to show His much more personal, loving aspect.

I would still believe that Jesus loved me and that He wanted to pay the price for our sins. I've never believed that the Bible was meant to be a science or history textbook, even though many of the events in it did actually occur (such as the Babylonian exile). To me, the Bible was chiefly meant to inspire people to come to the Christian faith, and live out their lives in love for God and His Son.

That's pretty much how I feel, too. How many wonderful things have come out of showing love for humanity? Innumerable things.

Why must I think that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, as some say because they believe in the Genesis account literally, in order to come to faith (or continue in faith)? I have a point/counterpoint for you to consider:

There are a lot of different views on the Creationism debate, not just 'literal 6 days vs. evolution', all-or-nothing idea. There's progressive creationism (creationism done over a hundreds of thousands of years), theistic evolution (God directed the evolutionary process), and various shades in between. I think fundamentalists have done themselves a bit of a disservice by not appreciating that God created science as well as religion, and that science and religion both can and do exist in harmony.

 

1) "If all of the Bible isn't LITERALLY true, then none of it must be true."

Not necessarily. One mistake doesn't invalidate an entire document. If it did, all of ancient history would be tossed completely out the window, as would all of Dawkins' books on atheism.

 

-1) Some people like to compare the Bible to a math book, so I'll run with that analogy. If there is a mistake in my math book, does that make the entire text garbage? Are all of the problems mistakenly construed or wrong? Are the theories presented a bunch of hogwash? Of course not. In a math book, one "bad apple" (error) does not "spoil the whole barrel". If some of the Bible isn't literally true, that doesn't make God's love any less valid. Right?

If your initial equation is wrong in a series of equations, that error is likely going to continue throughout the entire series and mess up the entire thing. Other mistakes may not make any difference whatsoever.

 

I think the Bible was written as a guidebook to a. Discover God b. Discover love c. learn how to relate to other people in society in a positive, meaningful way. The rules are there to help us, not screw us over. Why do we have rules on avoiding adultery? Because it can spread sexually transmitted diseases and ruin the family unit by creating mistrust in a situation that requires tremendous trust. Why do we have rules against stealing? Because it damages those who are stolen from. Why do we not murder? Because aside from giving the victim a really bad day, it cheapens life all around us. Is God going to punish us? Well, in a sense, yes, by letting us experience the consequences of our mistakes. If we get an STD, it may not kill us these days, but it would have even 100 years ago.

 

That's not even addressing the many aspects of good things that come to us by sharing love with those around us. Studies are showing that married people live longer and are happier than those couples who just live together, being involved in a faith community leads to less depression (probably because we have a support system then). Staying on the 'light side'/good side of the law is healthier for us. There's just plain less risk of getting shot or killed if you're not breaking into someone's house, for instance, and no chance of being Bubba's lover in jail if you never get arrested.

[jonathan7]

I think I can actually state quite frankly that nobody knows God better than anybody knows God, and those that really think they know God have deceived themselves a great deal. Which God are you speaking of jonathan? There are many legitimate and "believable" Gods for the peoples of our planet... If someone claims to know "Jesus" but God is actually JVHV, or Krishna, or Bahá'u'lláh, where does that put us? If a Christian claims he knows God better than a Shinto, I will argue that Christian is self-deceived, or being misled by Natasha (spell it drawkcab).

 

I will say that no one knows God. This can be argued, but convincingly??????

 

Actually you seem to have missed my point, apologies perhaps my articulation was not good. My point was if there is a God, then he would know who knows him, and indeed who knows him better than others. As such I was not making claims as to which human can say they know God better, just that to quote Bertrand Russell "Since all the worlds great religions disagree, no more than one can be true" (from 'Why I am not a Christian). As such given the very different opinions on said deity it follows that some peoples conceptions of God are more (or less) accurate as to what said God is like. Or to put it differently, two people see the moon, they both believe in the moon, but one knows it is made of rock and the other knows it is made of cheese. Who knows the moon more accurately?

[Tommycat]

My saying on that is beware those who claim to know God and tell you what he wants. Chances are they know neither.

[Tysyacha]

You know what? I've concluded, after participating in this thread for quite a few posts, that even if God doesn't exist, there are PLENTY of supportive, caring, and understanding humans out there. *HUGS* to all of you! It makes me inclined to believe that someone (even with a capital S!) is willing to put it all "out on the line" for someone else who feels lost, and that's awesome!

 

None of you have judged me or told me I'm completely messed up. That's a lot more than I've gotten from some people--basically a harsh rebuttal: "Why don't you believe anymore, or at least why are you having trouble believing?" You guys really understand, even though we disagree on some points.

 

You know what all of you have proven--and I mean that sincerely? You've proven that no matter what each one of us professes as our faith, we all share a common humanity--respect for one another, no matter what.

 

I'll take that over blind faith any day, no matter what anybody says.

[adamqd]

I am neither an Intellectual nor a Christian, but sometimes you have to look inside yourself to find Happiness and Meaning in life. This is not directed at the Religious members of this Forum, as the ones I've had dealings with are level headed and caring people... But when I was "Forced" to go to Church, Sunday School and Boys Brigade as a Child, the Kids and Adults I was surrounded by were some of the Nastiest, close-minded Bullies I've ever met.

 

I Hope you feel your family will be understanding of your problems, as they should be your third leg no questions asked.

 

I sincerely hope you find peace with your self and any decisions you make, and I hope your family and friends are there for you

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

You know what? I've concluded, after participating in this thread for quite a few posts, that even if God doesn't exist, there are PLENTY of supportive, caring, and understanding humans out there. *HUGS* to all of you! It makes me inclined to believe that someone (even with a capital S!) is willing to put it all "out on the line" for someone else who feels lost, and that's awesome!

 

None of you have judged me or told me I'm completely messed up. That's a lot more than I've gotten from some people--basically a harsh rebuttal: "Why don't you believe anymore, or at least why are you having trouble believing?" You guys really understand, even though we disagree on some points.

 

You know what all of you have proven--and I mean that sincerely? You've proven that no matter what each one of us professes as our faith, we all share a common humanity--respect for one another, no matter what.

 

I'll take that over blind faith any day, no matter what anybody says.

Amen!!!

That is as good a prayer as any I can think of

 

@j7: There you go, quoting my favorite philosopher Perhaps I did misunderstand your post. I echo the sentiment of Tommycat... I specialized in Epistemology and Philosophy of Mind while getting my BA in Phil, and questions pertaining to "knowledge" always get my attention, as it is a daunting task to prove to me that humans actually know, uh, anything

[DeathScepter]

This is my advice only:

1)Love God

2)Read Scripture

3)Serve your fellow man

4)If you can or want too, find a church and pray about it

5)Be honest with yourself

[Trench]

This is my advice only:

1)Love God

2)Read Scripture

3)Serve your fellow man

4)If you can or want too, find a church and pray about it

5)Be honest with yourself

 

Thread necromancy is frowned upon here lad. Not really, if you see an older topic that you believe you can constructively add to the topic, then no thread necromancy is not frowned upon. However, that does mean you would have add some real information, or present your opinion in a somewhat intelligent matter. “I agree” or “No it isn’t” are not what I would consider intelligently adding to the conversation. I also think it matters how old the thread is, but again a lot of that is subjective.

 

I direct you to the Forum Rules for more information. Check out the section on general posting habits. Thanks, but you may want to read the section on spam yourself. Should you see a post that needs moderating please use the report button. ~ mimartin

 

Edit-- Aww. I never get to play moderator.

[Sabretooth]

4)If you can or want too, find a church and pray about it

 

Alternately, find a quiet spot and meditate over it.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Om

 

 

 

 

 

Om

[Totenkopf]

Ohm

 

 

Ohm

 

 

Corrected.

[Sabretooth]

ॐ

 

 

 

 

 

ॐ

 

Correctly corrected.

[Al_Ciao]

Me

 

 

 

 

 

Me

 

Incorrectly corrected.

[mimartin]

ENOUGH!

 

Don't make be give my ban/infraction finger a workout.

[R2-X2]

I stopped believing in religion when I was 13. I've never been the one to believe in miracles, but this "god" thingy misses all logic and reason... at least I think so... :/ But I don't want to offend anyone's thoughts about that and just thought to add my opinion here

[Q]

After six years of being drug-free and living in reality I've come to the conclusion that the only real purpose that religion serves is to provide those who do not possess a conscience with a convenient way to manipulate those who do. I didn't realize this much earlier in life due to being brainwashed by my reliotarded parents as a child and the aforementioned drug use in my early adulthood.

 

It is now my firm belief that religion is just another form of politics and that it's every bit as worthless.

[Pho3nix]

It is now my firm belief that religion is just another form of politics and that it's every bit as worthless.

Indeed. Only problem is that religion is (in my opinion) formed by two different things;

 

1) Personal experiences.

 

2) The need for security and comfort via spiritual fulfillment and "answers/truth".

 

For the record, I don't believe religious people are stupid. It's just that most people gladly choose the blue pill over the red pill, if you've seen The Matrix you'll now what I mean. It's just easier for people to focus on shallow things in life like the wedding of Prince William instead of pondering deep, philosophic questions about the universe and life in general. This means that they wont effectively come to the conclusion that religious institutions are a bad thing and will instead embrace them even with their faults. I'm pretty sure the average Joe would become extremely depressed if he suddenly realized the true nature of things in life, they way we live, how our society works, what really goes on behind the curtains so to speak and so forth. And again, people are not stupid - they all have the potential to realize the bigger truth but will instead opt to the safe cushion of ignorance.

 

For this reason I don't believe the human race will ever steer away from some form of religion, be it spiritual or totalitarian in the form of a country or state. At least not unless something radical happens with the human consciousness, possibly aided by technology in the future which will guide us away from our animalistic nature toward something very different.

 

Oh and congratulations on your sobriety Q, I'm well on my way myself. *fingers crossed*

[Alexrd]

And what is the bigger truth exactly? And can't it be said that the blue pill is the lack of any belief, since people accept only what they can see and touch and not what's behind the curtain?

[mur'phon]

Pho3nix:

It's just easier for people to focus on shallow things in life like the wedding of Prince William instead of pondering deep, philosophic questions about the universe and life in general. This means that they wont effectively come to the conclusion that religious institutions are a bad thing and will instead embrace them even with their faults.

 

It should be mentioned that it's remarkably dificult to find corelation between (more or less) accepted negative effects and religion. I have tried and failed to find it, so if you have some good data I'd be interested.

 

I'm pretty sure the average Joe would become extremely depressed if he suddenly realized the true nature of things in life, they way we live, how our society works, what really goes on behind the curtains so to speak and so forth. And again, people are not stupid - they all have the potential to realize the bigger truth but will instead opt to the safe cushion of ignorance.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. More spesifically what you mean by "true nature of things in life", is it strictly what can be observed/measured? If yes, then I'd argue that we don't know everything of what is behind the curtain, yet.

 

Alex: To run with the curtain analogy: the unbeliever is the guy who is trying to get the limited amount of info he can about what is behind the curtain, by doing everything from listening to making theories of what the shadows on the curtain could be. The religious guy is the one who either claims that someone else have peeked behind the curtain and told them what is there, despite no one else being able to peek behind the curtain.

[Kelvin]

After six years of being drug-free and living in reality I've come to the conclusion that the only real purpose that religion serves is to provide those who do not possess a conscience with a convenient way to manipulate those who do. I didn't realize this much earlier in life due to being brainwashed by my reliotarded parents as a child and the aforementioned drug use in my early adulthood.

 

It is now my firm belief that religion is just another form of politics and that it's every bit as worthless.

 

To be fully sincere, i don't exactly agree with you. Yes, religion has been used to control people throughout the ages. Yes.. The most powerful way to control people is through their minds and thoughts, yes... But religion hides something more, not only stories, about this and the other, but a truly whole philosophy. Also, not all the religions are like that, in fact, religions from Asia, such as Buddhism, Confucianism and so on... They center they're beliefs in thinking and meditating about everything that surrounds them. In that part, i agree with them, occidental religions have always imposed things as impossible to evolve or change.

 

You don't have to "hate" or ignore totally, because the one who hears is as wise as the one who speaks.

 

You can have you're own beliefs, but they don't need to be the whole inverse of the ones from christian or jewish or whatever religion, just because they have done bad things before.

 

The problem is that religions, or, to be more accurate, communities of religions, are formed by people, people that have their pros and cons, and, well, somehow, you cannot blame them for what they did after all, who are we to blame people?, and even more important, would he act the same, if his life would have been like yours?