Unpopular opinions

[OzzieMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Marius said:

SoMI Guybrush outfit is my favorite. By far. I love that it's very simple, black and white.

And it makes me happy that he chose to wear something similar in EMI again.

 

(Not disliking the others. I like the blue coat in LR, but mostly because it's a perfect continuation after SoMI, matching Guybrush new bloated ego.)

Speaking of outfits, I once went to a video-game character themed dressup party as Guybrush from Curse....nobody had a clue who I was...uncultured dairy farmers.

[KestrelPi]

There's never been an Elaine voice I've truly been happy with.

 

I think Alexandra Boyd does a good job, and I think she suited the version of Elaine in Curse quite well. But the line reans in the first two games just aren't quite how I imagined them in my head. They feel a bit overwrought to me, I always imagined elaine as sorta ... cool? Like, too cool and capable for Guybrush, and I don't think that's come through in any version of Elaine so far.

It's not Boyd's fault, she played the version of the character that was in CMI, and she did the best she could with what was in 1 and 2, but ultimately I think it's not the voice of the worldly, capable character (with a slightly soft side) that I want Elaine to be.

[Lagomorph01]

4 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

There's never been an Elaine voice I've truly been happy with.

 

I think Alexandra Boyd does a good job, and I think she suited the version of Elaine in Curse quite well. But the line reans in the first two games just aren't quite how I imagined them in my head. They feel a bit overwrought to me, I always imagined elaine as sorta ... cool? Like, too cool and capable for Guybrush, and I don't think that's come through in any version of Elaine so far.

It's not Boyd's fault, she played the version of the character that was in CMI, and she did the best she could with what was in 1 and 2, but ultimately I think it's not the voice of the worldly, capable character (with a slightly soft side) that I want Elaine to be.

I think the line reads in SE1 and SE2 have to do with bad direction really. Although Boyd's Elaine isn't really how I imagined her to sound when I first played MI1 and 2 either. To me she never sounded like she really 'got' the character. Although I'd have to listen to her Tales performance again, I think that might actually be her best work in the part.

As for EMI, I remember Elaine as being a bit too bossy and snubby, but that might've been because they wanted to make her less damsel-in-distressy in that game. I know Charity James (EMI Elaine) did the voice for Grace Nakimura in Gabriel Knight 3, and she sounded a lot nicer and less 'bitchy'. Maybe she'd perform better with another shot?

I'd rather have them keep Alexandra at this point though.

 

All in all, I've never heard an Elaine voice that, to me, completely fits the character.

[KestrelPi]

The one that sticks out to me is "I should have known better!" when Guybrush asks for the map in MI2. To me that line was always in the voice of someone angry with guybrush and disappointed in herself for getting taken in, but the read in MI2:SE sounds more like a mother who's caught her son with his hand in the cookie jar. It's more 'oh, you cheeky little scamp' and less 'you've let me down again after a long series of let downs'. I have trouble -believing- it, and I think it's possibly true that some of those lines could have done with better direction.

[Thrik]

The line read that makes me want to carve my face off is the very beginning of MI2SE:

 

 

 

[TimeGentleman]

To everyone: just as an exercise, what actor or performance from tv or film most matches the Elaine you have in your head? Maybe it's just because of the name, but the one that immediately jumped to mind for me is Elaine in Seinfeld!

[KestrelPi]

25 minutes ago, TimeGentleman said:

To everyone: just as an exercise, what actor or performance from tv or film most matches the Elaine you have in your head? Maybe it's just because of the name, but the one that immediately jumped to mind for me is Elaine in Seinfeld!

 

American: Laura Dern in Jurassic Park could pull it off. She doesn't take bullshit and gets things done, but has a side to her that's warm and kind.

British: Can't think of a specific performance but something in the region of Emily Blunt?

[Lagomorph01]

2 hours ago, TimeGentleman said:

To everyone: just as an exercise, what actor or performance from tv or film most matches the Elaine you have in your head? Maybe it's just because of the name, but the one that immediately jumped to mind for me is Elaine in Seinfeld!

Elaine from Seinfeld is a no-no for me, even though I'm a huge fan of the show. She's way too self centered and petty for MI Elaine though.

Since we're in sitcom territory, how about Jane Leeves in Frasier? She and Niles develop a similar relationship! And she has the accent down!

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Lagomorph01

[BillyCheers]

On 6/14/2022 at 4:05 PM, Thrik said:

The line read that makes me want to carve my face off is the very beginning of MI2SE:

 

 

Totally agree. For me, the biggest cringe in the voice actings. It just sounds like she tried a first simple read and they went "Perfect, we got it, next line, please!". Too bad it's the very beginning of that game... 

[ThunderPeel2001]

On 6/14/2022 at 3:05 PM, Thrik said:

The line read that makes me want to carve my face off is the very beginning of MI2SE:

 

 

 

 

I had to brace myself for a few days to give it a listen... oof. That was bad. She's one reading away from "Welcome to Hogwarts, Master Potter!"

As for who should play Elaine... just watching a quick vid of EMI reminds me why I thought the recast was superior (ignoring the dopey lines she's given -- she delivers them perfectly and it actually feels like it's possible there could be chemistry between her and Guybrush).

 

(Also rewatching EMI reminds me of the near constant lack of polish compared to Curse... the reused music, etc. Although I think the character models look good.)

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

19 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

I had to brace myself for a few days to give it a listen... oof. That was bad. She's one reading away from "Welcome to Hogwarts, Master Potter!"

As for who should play Elaine... just watching a quick vid of EMI reminds me why I thought the recast was superior (ignoring the dopey lines she's given -- she delivers them perfectly and it actually feels like it's possible there could be chemistry between her and Guybrush).

 

(Also rewatching EMI reminds me of the near constant lack of polish compared to Curse... the reused music, etc. Although I think the character models look good.)

 

 

 

To me it's not the lack of polish compared with Curse that became most striking, it's the lack of polish compared with Grim.

Anyway, yeah. I think I sort of agree. I don't hate that they changed Elaine's voice for EMI. I hate that they did it, then had an opportunity to give her a more prominent role, but ultimately reduced that to the role of a nagging quest-giver for the majority of the game. So I now always associate that voice with an overbearing, unlikeable version of Elaine.

[Lagomorph01]

19 hours ago, BillyCheers said:

Totally agree. For me, the biggest cringe in the voice actings. It just sounds like she tried a first simple read and they went "Perfect, we got it, next line, please!". Too bad it's the very beginning of that game... 

This reminds me of something my mentor in voice acting once said. When he did the dutch dub of Ducktales (1987), he said the director chose not to start with the first episodes of the series, because you only have one chance to make a first impression. He wanted the actors to already feel comfortable in their roles for the first episodes. It's not as bad if the line reading is a little less consistent further on in the production, because the audience will already know the character well enough to look past this.

I can imagine working on an adventure game can work the same way. Start with the less important lines that aren't in the beginning or ending of the game.

[KestrelPi]

What I do want to say is that I think there are moments when Boyd definitely does approach what I want with that character, but it varies from line to line.

 

Like only a couple of lines later I think 'That's okay, I've got time' is a good read. I think later on here initial reaction to Guybrush asking about the map is on point, has exactly the sort of bite and edge I want to the statement.

 

 

Then she says 'I should have known better' and it's like her attitude to the situation has changed mid-read. It's not that the reads are bad, I just think they're very inconsistent. There's the potential there though so I'm hopeful that Ron and Khris in combination will get something good here.

[Romão]

On 6/15/2022 at 11:15 AM, TimeGentleman said:

To everyone: just as an exercise, what actor or performance from tv or film most matches the Elaine you have in your head? Maybe it's just because of the name, but the one that immediately jumped to mind for me is Elaine in Seinfeld!

 

Rhea Seehorn from Better Call Saul. And while you're at it, get Bob Odenkirk for a life action Stan

[madmardi]

2 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

 

To me it's not the lack of polish compared with Curse that became most striking, it's the lack of polish compared with Grim.

Anyway, yeah. I think I sort of agree. I don't hate that they changed Elaine's voice for EMI. I hate that they did it, then had an opportunity to give her a more prominent role, but ultimately reduced that to the role of a nagging quest-giver for the majority of the game. So I now always associate that voice with an overbearing, unlikeable version of Elaine.

 

Well I don't think I'll change any minds here, but I do want to voice my disagreement to both of the points above. I thought there was quite a bit of polish, even compared to Curse and Grim, and I really liked the EMI Elaine in a lot of ways (as well as the interactions/chemistry between the two of them) - I never found her unlikeable.

[Udvarnoky]

I think Charity James gave a good performance (all the voice acting in EMI is top notch), but I think the writing for Elaine in that game wasn't especially careful. Sure, Guybrush has always been a goofball to some extent and Elaine has always been capable, but the marital dynamic there gives the impression that the writers thought it was a zero sum game: that Elaine only looks good when it's at Guybrush's expense. I think this risks making Elaine unlikable in a way that could easily have been avoided. And in a way, it makes her a dependant: If you need to make Guybrush extra stupid to underline Elaine's qualities, you're not really doing Elaine justice.

 

A summary of how EMI views that relationship is in the game's opening cutscene. How does the game choose to recap their dynamic? With a montage of Elaine punching Guybrush in the face. It's funny in a "don't think about it" way, but also a really lame and sitcom-y distillation of the couple.

[Udvarnoky]

4 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

(Also rewatching EMI reminds me of the near constant lack of polish compared to Curse... the reused music, etc. Although I think the character models look good.)

 

EMI makes a terrible first impression with the opening credits, which reprises the CMI arrangement of the theme almost exactly while using those cheap-looking PowerPoint transitions.

 

That said, I don't think "reused music" is a fair complaint. Audio is one front where EMI does live up to CMI's production values. Though I favor CMI's score just because it's that good, EMI delivers a varied and original soundtrack. Off the top of my head I know the Tiny LaFeet scene features a rearrangement of the Smuggler's Cave music from CMI, but isn't that about it? The occasional reprisal is fair, and no different from CMI reprising "The Journey" when Guybrush is about to propose or Kate Capsize's theme when Guybrush is falling off the cliff. There's no meaningful recycling in either game, though I think it's unfortunate EMI didn't have a new rendition of the main theme.

 

EMI is definitely inferior to CMI on the polish front, but I think it was also made under heavier constraints. CMI and Grim were the last "spare no expense" adventure games out of LucasArts. I dunno exactly what EMI's production schedule was, but it was definitely tighter. And if you're comparing it to Grim, which took three years, it was probably turned around in literally half that time.

[KestrelPi]

27 minutes ago, Udvarnoky said:

A summary of how EMI views that relationship is in the game's opening cutscene. How does the game choose to recap their dynamic? With a montage of Elaine punching Guybrush in the face. It's funny in a "don't think about it" way, but also a really lame and sitcom-y distillation of the couple.

 

Well I think that it gets to the core of what I don't like about EMI Elaine, which is that I never got the sense that Elaine wielding power over Guybrush and ordering him around was part of their relationship dynamic. Before EMI the most she ever bossed Guybrush around was when she insisted he finish his trials so that they could ... well, sleep together, basically.

 

In fact, if anything Guybrush is Elaine's weakness. She's strong, independent and resourceful, and clear headed, but Guybrush gets under her skin in a way that brings out her softer side. But you wouldn't know that to play EMI, in that game he behaves more like a puppy who is eager to do whatever to please her, and she's more than happy to utilize him for whatever errand best suits her purposes, which isn't how I see that relationship at ALL.

 

At least in the CMI version, for all its faults, I can envision the world where Elaine gets so blindsided by the return of Guybrush that she momentarily forgets about the bad times.

 

 

[KestrelPi]

3 minutes ago, Udvarnoky said:

 

That said, I don't think "reused music" is a fair complaint. Audio is one front where EMI does live up to CMI's production values. Though I favor CMI's score just because it's that good, EMI delivers a varied and original soundtrack. Off the top of my head I know the Tiny LaFeet scene features a rearrangement of the Smuggler's Cave music from CMI, but isn't that about it? The occasional reprisal is fair, and no different from CMI reprising "The Journey" when Guybrush is about to propose or Kate Capsize's theme when Guybrush is falling off the cliff. There's no meaningful recycling in either game, though I think it's unfortunate EMI didn't have a new rendition of the main theme.

 

Hmm, I'm not so sure. I think EMI has some really great tunes, you'd have to have that given the people involved. But I think it lacks the unity of vision that the MI2 and CMI soundtracks have. Much of the time it feels like each of the composers have gone off and done their own thing in their own way, and spend much less time than they did in MI2 turning that into a cohesive vision. To me it's like the difference between an album that has a bunch of bangers on it, but is a bit of a mess, and an album that hangs together stylistically really well. I think things can be unpolished in different ways, and for me the EMI soundtrack is good but unpolished

[Udvarnoky]

I think EMI in general really plays up the "Everyone thinks Guybrush is a boob" angle. It may be an extrapolation of something that was always there, but it just gets taken a bit far. There's a lot of laughing at Guybrush's goofiness in the preceding games, but he constantly takes so much guff from everyone in EMI that I start to feel sorry for him, which I don't think is supposed to be the idea. It's kind of rich too because he spends the game ingeniously and indefatigably solving crazy challenges in order to save the world, but will at turns be made to behave like the planet's biggest simpleton for a laugh. Yes, that's always been a thing to some extent, but it feels somehow out of balance in EMI.

[Huz]

My unpopular opinion: it's to EMI's credit that it reuses the theme from CMI almost exactly. You can't improve on perfection so why embarrass yourself in trying? :chefskissemoji:

[KestrelPi]

I think all MI themes should be a completely new take on the theme that is reflective of the mood of the game.

 

If MI1's theme was just the sort of basic naive version of it, simple arrangement but adventurous melody

MI2 version is a little bit cynical, it's funked itself up a little in a bid to stay relevant, is a little bit busy and chaotic in parts, and added a layer of glitz that feels at home with where guybrush's attitude is at the start of the game.

CMI is closer to MI1's but much more ambitious in its arrangement, but that matches how the tone and structure of that game is closer to 1, but the production values have skyrocketed.

 

So, EMI's theme I thing should have been closer to 2's again - everything with a layer of glamour over it, to reflect the changing state of the islands, and the influence of outside forces. Hearing the CMI theme in EMI again was one of the biggest let downs of it to me. And the worst part is that it keeps the abrupt ending of that version without actually ... using that in the cutscene, like they do in CMI.

 

For me, there is NO definitive MI theme, the whole point is that they should be reflective of the game they're in. But if there were a definitive version, it couldn't possibly be CMI's because it's not even the whole thing - it doesn't have the end of the tune!

 

When I hear ReMI's theme, I want the version to tell me a little about what I can expect from this iteration.

 

(Also... I like Tales a lot, but the less said about that version of the theme, the better)

Edited June 16, 2022 by KestrelPi

[ThunderPeel2001]

4 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

Then she says 'I should have known better' and it's like her attitude to the situation has changed mid-read. It's not that the reads are bad, I just think they're very inconsistent.

 

Oof. Another one.

[ThunderPeel2001]

1 hour ago, Udvarnoky said:

EMI makes a terrible first impression with the opening credits, which reprises the CMI arrangement of the theme almost exactly while using those cheap-looking PowerPoint transitions.

 

Yes. Oh yes. Even the Act cards look cheap, too. I guess they had less of a budget. Amazing the models and acting is so good really.

[Kroms]

Some I've thought of:

• I haven't played EMI in 20 years, but I like Pegnose Pete, though even then I thought the duck undermined him.
• Monkey Island 2's tri-island chapter was too big. I spent hours looking for a lens, bored out of my mind. (I still love Monkey Island 2.)
• The Telltale Sam and Max outings were mostly better than Hit the Road, though I liked it for the most part.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Kroms