ReMI ramp-up

[OzzieMonkey]

I hope that whatever the interface is, it allows for some interesting puzzles and a good amount of experimentation/exploration. I feel like there needs to be a good balance between streamlining the gameplay and having a satisfying amount of options. We do know at least from Ron's musings on his blog that he's not a fan of just a single click to interact, or what he called the "poke" verb (meaning "poke" this and see what happens, wash, rinse, repeat); I think that's probably Tales' biggest weakness, even though I'd still argue it has plenty of memorable puzzles. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by OzzieMonkey

[KestrelPi]

I've taked about this a bit too far but I agree with his comments from years before about how mostly verbs are cruft and getting rid of them isn't as scary as it sounds. Inventory items are more interesting than verbs. But I do think Tales took it one step too far in removing 'look' (except for inventory items, I guess). So whatever the new thing is I hope it either finds a way to make verbs more interesting than they have been before and I hope it isn't so stripped back that we lose what we had in a meaningful way.

[ThunderPeel2001]

As far as I'm concerned, Curse of Monkey Island perfected the modern verb-based interface. I don't really understand why every adventure game since hasn't just stolen it.

[Laserschwert]

To be fair, Full Throttle used that interface first.

[Scummbuddy]

The upcoming game "Brok the InvestiGator" claims to be "The first ever "Punch & Click" adventure"... and all I can think of is "Have you NOT played Full Throttle??".

 

But they're meaning it more in a point-and-click and streets-of-rage combo.

[ATMcashpoint]

3 hours ago, Laserschwert said:

To be fair, Full Throttle used that interface first.

Personally, I think the Full Throttle interface was kind of clunky, in that it has a "Kick" verb that's only used for a couple of puzzles (kicking open the Kickstand door and the secret switch for the Corley Motors back entrane IIRC). And combining the "Eye" and "Mouth" icons into a single skull element felt like they were crammed into awkwardly small spaces.

 

In contrast, CMI has separate areas on the Verb Coin for the "Eye" and "Mouth" icons, which feels much easier to control when you're holding down the mouse button to select an action (rather than just simply clicking once to make a pop-up menu appear). It's not surprisng IMO why it was the CMI version of that interface that really became well-remembered.

[ThunderPeel2001]

4 hours ago, Laserschwert said:

To be fair, Full Throttle used that interface first.

 

Sorry to get pedantic, but it didn't. It's was the first attempt at the verb coin, but it was perfected with Curse. Full Throttle's was always slightly clunky. From the slightly-too-long delay to the cramped inventory.

 

28 minutes ago, ATMcashpoint said:

In contrast, CMI has separate areas on the Verb Coin for the "Eye" and "Mouth" icons, which feels much easier to control when you're holding down the mouse button to select an action (rather than just simply clicking once to make a pop-up menu appear). It's not surprisng IMO why it was the CMI version of that interface that really became well-remembered.

 

Exactly. The two are superficially the same, but the small changes make the difference. I love Curse's interface... I tolerate Full Throttle's. (Although the worst of the second generation interfaces was Sam & Max's by far).

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

48 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Sorry to get pedantic, but it didn't. It's was the first attempt at the verb coin, but it was perfected with Curse. Full Throttle's was always slightly clunky. From the slightly-too-long delay to the cramped inventory.

I mean, I'd say that's pedantic to the extreme. It's the same concept. You just like Curse's implementation better... that doesn't make it a different thing.

[ThunderPeel2001]

41 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

I mean, I'd say that's pedantic to the extreme. It's the same concept. You just like Curse's implementation better... that doesn't make it a different thing.

 

Sorry, but I don't see how it's pedantic in the extreme. They didn't have the same interface -- and I don't mean they had a different graphical style. It's like arguing that Last Crusade and Monkey Island EGA had the same interface. They had the same concept, but there's small differences that put one light years ahead of the other. UI is not just about what you see, it's about implementation. 

 

I just booted up both Full Throttle and Curse again in ScummVM to refresh my own memory: Curse feels absolutely unintrusive. It's fast, responsive, painless. Full Throttle's is a still a pain... It's sluggish and requires more precision. And look at that inventory... the wasted space alone! (UX tip: Don't hide options from the user.) Forcing the player to click outside the box to close it is annoying, too. Those annoyances add up over the course of a game.

 

The bottom line is that LucasArts were always evolving and improving their interfaces. They improved the verb coin UX for Curse (just like they did with MI's interface after LC). That took time and energy, and those differences led to a better interface. I don't see how anyone can say they're "the same"?
 

Edited June 25, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

1 hour ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Sorry, but I don't see how it's pedantic in the extreme. They didn't have the same interface -- and I don't mean they had a different graphical style. It's like arguing that Last Crusade and Monkey Island EGA had the same interface. They had the same concept, but there's small differences that put one light years ahead of the other. UI is not just about what you see, it's about implementation. 

 

I just booted up both Full Throttle and Curse again in ScummVM to refresh my own memory: Curse feels absolutely unintrusive. It's fast, responsive, painless. Full Throttle's is a still a pain... It's sluggish and requires more precision. And look at that inventory... the wasted space alone! (UX tip: Don't hide options from the user.) Forcing the player to click outside the box to close it is annoying, too. Those annoyances add up over the course of a game.

 

The bottom line is that LucasArts were always evolving and improving their interfaces. They improved the verb coin UX for Curse (just like they did with MI's interface after LC). That took time and energy, and those differences led to a better interface. I don't see how anyone can say they're "the same"?
 

I think all I was saying was that it's the same concept?

[Jake]

The full throttle one is my preferred one because it had a hole in the middle to see where your cursor was. In Curse the object you’re interacting with is covered by the coin  But I do like the wheel interface in general. I’m surprised more things didn’t use it. 

[ThunderPeel2001]

11 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

I think all I was saying was that it's the same concept?

 

I'm not sure anyone anywhere has disagreed that they're both verb coins?

[KestrelPi]

3 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

I'm not sure anyone anywhere has disagreed that they're both verb coins?

I'm a little confused about what the disagreement IS here, given....

 

16 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

 It's the same concept.

 

16 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

 They had the same concept,

 

[Thrik]

Well, in the end I think we can all agree on one thing, and that’s that The Curse of Monkey Island is the best LucasArts game with the best verb interface.

[TimeGentleman]

I think maybe the confusion here is that Thunderpeel said that COMI *perfected* "the modern verb-based interface", not that it invented it or even that it invented the 'verb coin/tattoo'. Full Throttle used the concept before COMI, but didn't use the exact same version as COMI and so this doesn't contradict the opinion that COMI perfected it.

 

(I agree with TP that COMI's version is slicker and less fiddly, but I do still have a fondness for FT's metal af version and respect it for coming first.)

Edited June 25, 2022 by TimeGentleman

[ThunderPeel2001]

7 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

I'm a little confused about what the disagreement IS here, given....

 

 

There's a disagreement because you said I was being "pedantic in the extreme" for suggesting Full Throttle's and Curse's verb coins were not the same thing....

 

On 6/25/2022 at 1:21 AM, KestrelPi said:

I mean, I'd say that's pedantic to the extreme. It's the same concept. You just like Curse's implementation better... that doesn't make it a different thing.

 

This isn't just some random thought I've had. As a UI/UX nerd I've been planning an article on the evolution of the Scumm interface for ages (one day...). It's one of those subjects I care passionately about. The fact that people don't appreciate good UX is why we've seen a rise of things like stick-controlled cursor-drive menus. It drives me crazy. So yeah, I found the unnecessary drive-by irritating... to the extreme  

[KestrelPi]

1 hour ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

There's a disagreement because you said I was being "pedantic in the extreme" for suggesting Full Throttle's and Curse's verb coins were not the same thing....

 

 

This isn't just some random thought I've had. As a UI/UX nerd I've been planning an article on the evolution of the Scumm interface for ages (one day...). It's one of those subjects I care passionately about. The fact that people don't appreciate good UX is why we've seen a rise of things like stick-controlled cursor-drive menus. It drives me crazy. So yeah, I found the unnecessary drive-by irritating... to the extreme  

OK. I'm sorry my comment came across as a little hostile. Then again, I also care about UI/UX - and lately it's part of my day job, so it's going to be a bit futile to have a 'who cares/knows more about UX contest'. I'm sure you've been looking at it deeper and for longer, but let's just say we both vaguely know what we are talking about.

 

I do stand by that my comment was a response to this:



I don't think it was inaccurate for Laserschwert to say Full Throttle used it first - sure, it might not be your ideal version of the interface but it was the same concept, Full Throttle used it first. I disagree slightly with your later comment that

 

On 6/25/2022 at 12:31 AM, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

The two are superficially the same, but the small changes make the difference.

 

 

If they're only superficially the same that would mean that they're fundamentally different in some way. I think they're fundamentally the same, but with some details altered. You might believe those differences make important improvements, and that's fine. I just don't think that's enough to make Laserschwert wrong. I'm not sure I feel so strongly about the tweaks, and I agree with the point Jake made about the hole in the Full Throttle one being a good touch. But if someone asks me what the first verb coin interface was I'm still gonna say Full Throttle every time (unless some other obscure game I don't know about got there first )

All that said, once again, I didn't mean for my comment to come off hostile and I'm sorry for that, but I certainly didn't see it as, as you put it, an 'unnecessary drive-by' and like you I wasn't just flapping my gums for no reason.

Edited June 26, 2022 by KestrelPi

[madmardi]

*Grabs another bag of popcorn*

[Laserschwert]

*yawn*

[ATMcashpoint]

4 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

But if someone asks me what the first verb coin interface was I'm still gonna say Full Throttle every time (unless some other obscure game I don't know about got there first )

Arguably that was Return to Zork in 1993. It even had context-sensitive options that changed for each on-screen object, like Sierra would later do in Leisure Suit Larry 7 and Gabriel Knight 3 (or the text menu options in Delores).

Edited June 26, 2022 by ATMcashpoint

[ThunderPeel2001]

Well, I’m glad we got that sorted. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[MichaelSon]

I played MI 1 VGA and MI2 VGA talkie. Then Thimbleweed Park in Hard mode.

 

Currently stuck with CMI.

Don‘t like it very much.

 

Guess will try MI 1 in EGA before ROMI

[Staple Remover]

I’ve started my MI run backwards from Tales and working my way to end with MI1. I’ve scribbled my notes for so far. I’ve finished Tales and EMI and I shared my general musings. I’ll share more as I continue onto Curse. 

Tales
- so many good puzzles on Ep. 1, the getting onto the Narwhal and De Singe’s lab are the top ones

- was Davy Nipperkin axed in the later episodes due to public reaction to the character or because there was no use for him in the story? 
- the audio jungle maze was always a miss for me, I can never get the cues correct.

- the Ep. 1 cliffhanger was such a fun time on the telltale forums, with everyone speculating if it was Kate or Carla. That was one of the best (or only) benefits of the episodic gaming, getting the community invested in a game long term (insert Half Life 3 joke).

- Ep. 2 does feel the most off out of all of them, human LeChuck is a delight. 
- the face making contest in Ep 3 may be too silly, but it makes for a great insult swordfighting replacement, as is the duel in Ep. 5

- Ep. 4 is perfect. 

- Ep. 5 is the only time besides MI2 that we get a proper final act in the series. 

- the Crossroads/MI2 tunnels theme is a top 3 for me for the music).

EMI

- I like the artwork overall, it gives it a fun environment.

- Melee is sorely lacking from the predecessor, and is always a slow point in the game.

- the “cushy government jobs” is a prime example of punishing the player with a bait-and-switch solution. Having to look in a different angle of the room to find it is cruel. 
- best VO cast out of the entire series. Nearly every top voice actor at the time was featured in this game. 

- Mysts O Tyme runs way too long as a puzzle and the tank controls don’t help

- Jambalaya Island/Knuttin Atoll is the best section of this game.

- I love the idea of Planet Threepwood, referencing past adventures/memorabilia and the mythology of Guybrush threepwood, while nobody really believes that Guybrush is actually him. This and the Church of LeChuck make for fun dialogue. 
- I actually found the Starbucks jokes funny in 2022, and I have to get my sense of humor checked out now. 
- Miss Rivers is the absolute greatest. 
- Monkey Island is… well they make a great case for wanting to escape from it. 
- Church of LeChuck is hilarious, and the lava flume dialogue is so funny it makes up for the infuriating navigation of it so I can hear Guybrush singing. 
- I’ve made peace with Monkey Kombat, the robot, H.T., but I stand by my claim that if Dante Alighieri wrote about Adventure Games, he would place this puzzle in the lowest circle of hell right next to the Grim Fandango signpost puzzle. 10x worse than Monkey Kombat. 

[BaronGrackle]

On 6/29/2022 at 11:06 AM, MichaelSon said:

Currently stuck with CMI.

Don‘t like it very much.

Try using your mouth on that bottle.

[KestrelPi]

1 hour ago, BaronGrackle said:

Try using your mouth on that bottle.

Ha, I remember that was one I had to get a hint on in 1997.

 

Anyway, yeah, I think I've played all the Monkey Island I 'need' to play before ReMI. I'm intimately familiar with the first two as I tend to replay them every few years, and I've been watching parts of some plays on YouTube.

 

CMI I'm almost as but not quite so familiar with, have also watch some plays of that.

 

Escape I've watched bits and pieces but honestly I just don't really want to play it at the moment, I think it will annoy me. It deserves to be played when I'm more of a mind to give it a chance.

 

I replayed Tales for the first time since it came out and mostly liked it, but my feelings about it have mellowed in both directions: the parts I liked most I not like less, and the parts I liked least I now like more. Over all I think it's 'good', and occasionally very good.

 

I'm ready. Gimme ReMI.