Return to Monkey Island

[KestrelPi]

The most likely reason for Tim's lack of involvement is:

a) There's probably some contractual weirdness about him working outside of Microsoft, now.

b) He was elbow deep in Psychonauts 2 at the time the project came about, so there's no way he could have committed to it, even if he'd been able to solve a)

 

I don't think any speculation beyond that is gonna be particularly fruitful.

[DM81]

1 hour ago, TimeGentleman said:

I think it was statements like "we can say with a reasonable security that if Ahern and Chan had worked on Monkey 3 in 93/94, following their research and the trend of those years, they would have chosen the same, deformed and expressionist style" and the argument that therefore a 1993 Monkey Island 3 would have looked just like RtMI does, that muddied the waters a little. But yeah I think we're all in agreement that a 1993 MI3 would have moved the style on somehow, quite possibly in a more stylised direction, and that not having the exact same art style as MI2 is not some betrayal on Ron's part.

 

I made that statement  -which probably translated from Italian to English sounds a little too peremptory and absolutist- because it seemed useful draw attention to two important points, to spread some light of past controversies on graphics. Specifically I wanted:
 

1) Denying and demonstrate that the style of RTMI was "modern" or linked only to the cartoons of the 2000s. We have seen instead that it has roots well planted in the past both of the art history and of the Lucas adventures;

2) Indicate how, paradoxically,  was pixel-art "wrong" and not philological for the hypothetical Monkey 3 ( meaning by pixel art a graphic similar to Monkey 2, not only the 320x200 resolution).

Thank you for allowing me to clarify my thoughts.

[Zaxx]

5 hours ago, Redbeard_1973 said:

I have just read Ron's latest post on grumpygamer.com. I have to say, I find it very sad, that we now live in a world where an artist feels that he needs to vindicate his artistic decisions. Being a fan is great and everybody is entitled to have an opinion but being toxic isn't.

 

I won't say that I disagree because I can't even imagine the sheer amount of toxicity Ron has gotten but honestly I don't think it's that big of a deal. MI fans were always quite a bit hardcore and especially the kind of people who can argue endlessly about art styles, heck(tm) this is a community where someone made an elaborate mod because a few people didn't like Guybrush's hair in SoMI SE. This isn't really about MI fans though, every larger fan community always had a lot of toxic people in them mostly because - gasp - being a fan of a game or a corporation is just not a good basis for a community to exist (even if there are exceptions where that can work out fine).

 

And when it comes to the backlash about the art style it's really nothing compared to what Tales got when that game came out, the only difference is that nowadays it's even easier to reach creators. Which is why it was a good call from Ron to temporarily shut down his blog in order to remove the option to comment.

[Zaxx]

Btw. what I'm "in love with" is the idea that the game isn't pixel art because Ron was influenced by Disney, Devolver and whoever else is involved. Like some people are already making up theories on how they'll rationalize their eventual dislike for the finished game. I don't know how many times Ron will have to tell these people that he is in charge when it comes to every single creative decision.

 

Anyway my suggestions from the toxicity box:

 

- "If Tim Schafer was involved then RMI wouldn't look bad."

- "Ron must be on really bad terms with Tim if he's not involved"

- "Ron Gilbert failed to plan out the whole trilogy in advance when he was an infant."

- "Disney might not be calling the shots but Kathleen Kennedy is."

[Lagomorph01]

Since the blog is up again, I decided to scroll down in his Return to Monkey Island post to see why he decided to remove the comments, and... SHEESH! I understand him completely! I'd hate it too if people were using that kind of language against me on my own blog. What an entitled bunch!

It's a shame you can't really create anything anymore (especially not a sequel) without people trolling you to death.

[KestrelPi]

I think perhaps just to emphasise some boundaries here, I don't think it's wrong to express opinions about aesthetics. I don't even think it's wrong to release mods which 'fix' aesthetic stuff you don't like. Here's some of my own opinions:
 

• I think MI1's original backgrounds are merely okay.
• I think Guybrush's hair and face in the SE is extremely silly looking.
• I don't think the game has ever really looked good in 3D.
• I like CMI's art style a lot, but I think a few things were lost in the translation.

Where it becomes toxic is when one becomes so convinced of their take that they start second guessing everything anyone has to say to the contrary, ascribing some sort of sinister external motive. Or trying to justify why only their opinion can be the right one with a bunch of art theory mumbo jumbo.

I'm completely happy for people to dislike the art they've seen so far (I quite like it, but I'm not yet COMPLETELY sold), all I ask is that they accept that Ron and the team want this look for the game, and all I suggest -for their own happiness more than anything else- is that they wait until they've had a chance to see the whole thing come to life before making sweeping pronouncements about it.

[Jake]

Yep, agreed.
 

I think it’s fine to straight up hate something and wish it was something else, and to have strong opinions about what it should be. Its an opinion, a reaction one has, so it goes. But it’s just so rude to do that to Ron’s face while he’s still making the game. And its insufferably, delusionally entitled to take it farther and start rationalizing why Ron’s decisions don’t align with one’s own through basically conspiratorial thinking (“Disney made him do it” etc).
 

I’m glad Ron turned off comments and came out with a response like this, but am sad he had to. I’m actually glad for almost the whole post - I think him clearing the air to this degree would have probably been necessary or healthy regardless of any fan reaction. And, him finally saying what his original starting point for MI3 was going to be, shows that he was truly in control of this new game to the point that he was able to move past that idea like one naturally does when making something; he’s not still clinging to it like it’s the uncompromised version he didn’t get to make or something. But I wish it hadn’t had to have the part about the fan comments at the very end, that bit is sad. 

[Spiketheclown]

To all the people complaining about the art style: don't worry, there's always the possibility of a fan remake. For instance, there was a CMI "classic edition" project with pixel art:

 

 

Personally, I'm a huge fan of CMI, so I would love a remake in THAT style 😀

Edited May 2, 2022 by Spiketheclown

[Zaxx]

33 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

I like CMI's art style a lot, but I think a few things were lost in the translation.

 

Care to elaborate on this? Just curious really.

 

Anyway as to why I brought the SoMI SE hair mod up: mostly because it's ridiculous how much work went into that thing just to change one small thing about the remaster. That was just always really funny to me (and yeah, I get that in some aspects the mod is a joke) considering that SoMI SE has some glaring issues like the art in the forest just being unfinished and full of stuff that feels WIP. Like I imagine a crazy scientist laughing maniacally and saying "haha, I really should fix the backgrounds with all this free time I have but I'll change his HAIR because it sucks!".

Edited May 2, 2022 by Zaxx

[KestrelPi]

1 minute ago, Zaxx said:

 

Care to elaborate on this? Just curious really.

Sure. I think CMI's art style is great and for me feels like a natural progression of some of the things they were already exploring in MI2.

 

I also really enjoy the character designs, but I do think perhaps some of the characters lost a bit of what they had before. I always thought of Elaine as a quite tall, formidable figure but in CMI she tends a bit towards petite and 'cute'. And LeChuck's design suits how he was portrayed and voiced in the game, but I did miss the rather scarier version we saw in MI2, and I worry it has permanently changed how I see him as a villain. I used to feel nervous whenever LeChuck was on screen, but I don't think that's true any more.

Small things, really, and not enough to ruin it, but enough to make me think perhaps something was lost along the way.

[ThunderPeel2001]

10 hours ago, Lagomorph01 said:

Also, I found this in the "About" section of Grumpy Gamer. Could this be a reason why Tim Shafer isn't involved with RtMI? 

Yep, it’s a question I’d really like to know the answer to. Even if there’s nothing interesting in that answer. 
 

Anyway, great post by Ron. Glad he has the insight, experience and fortitude to stick to his guns. I completely support him making the game HE wants to make. I look forward to playing it and really hope I love it. 
 

I’m glad that the ReMI conversation at Mixnmojo has been polite and respectful, even towards those of us who haven’t immediately warmed to Rex’s artwork. (There’s no need for the fan base to tear itself apart because of differences of opinion.) And that everyone agrees the ReMI team don’t deserve any ire directed toward them. 
 

I’m sorry Ron had to even write that post, but everything he’s said has just makes me more excited. Can’t wait!

Edited May 2, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[Thrik]

If there is any bad blood like that about section could suggest, I’m not sure there’s any way of confronting it without it making them feel awkward as hell and probably not leading to a sincere answer anyway. These guys aren’t exactly going to start slagging each other off.

[Toymafia1988]

So do you think its called 'Return to monkey island' because of the famous Mi5 april fools joke years back?

 

Because if so, that's awesome that it got announced on April fools with the same name 🤣

 

It gives another layer to Ron's clever unapril fools.

 

If not then that's a huge coincidence.

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Toymafia1988

[ThunderPeel2001]

1 hour ago, Thrik said:

If there is any bad blood like that about section could suggest, I’m not sure there’s any way of confronting it without it making them feel awkward as hell and probably not leading to a sincere answer anyway. These guys aren’t exactly going to start slagging each other off.

 

Bear in mind that Ron didn't need to put that comment about DF in his About section in the first place. I have a feeling he'd be completely honest if asked, no matter what the reason (because I seriously doubt the reason would be anything that bad, plus he's always forthright).

[Glokidd]

49 minutes ago, Thrik said:

... These guys aren’t exactly going to start slagging each other off.

 

God that would be crushing if that happened... just the thought makes me super sad 😞 Truth is life tests everything and friendships are no different so a falling out is not entirely implausible but man I hope not. 

 

I love to think of the three MI 1 mains as like the 3 amigos or whatever that went each on their own  to do great things in their own chosen venues.

 

To me they have their own archetypes withing storytelling:

 

Tim is "The Artist" (I really dont know if i really have to go too far into detail to explain why i chose that one, we have all played his games, artistic presentation is alway a clear and individual stylistic choice and theme. Tim has always been a huge part of the games as art debate from its inception basically)

 

Ron is "The Mechanic" (We all know Rons love for coding and building new engines and how he tailors them to the stories he wants to tell)

 

I have often struggled with Daves (for a time I seen him incorrectly as the nerd within all of us, then it became the innocent: that optional part of guybrush in MI1 that was just a newbie in awe of the world around him. then I realized everything I think I knew about him was likely totally wrong so I'll leave that interpretation to someone more directly familiar with him or his senabilities) but in the interest of ReMI (fine I'll do it too lol) I think he can be the Muse or even the Comedian as the guy who can probably get Ron to make even a serious moment funny.

 

[ThunderPeel2001]

I doubt there's any real bad blood. I get the feeling that Ron is generally too stoic for that sort of thing. And Dave doesn't seem to be the type to harbour grudges. Of course they're all just people too, so I'm sure they've occasionally had problems, like anyone does. I remember Tim himself describing how he was a jerk to work with during Day of the Tentacle, for example (in Rogue Leaders). 

Edited May 2, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[Lagomorph01]

9 hours ago, Toymafia1988 said:

So do you think its called 'Return to monkey island' because of the famous Mi5 april fools joke years back?

No. But I do think there’s another layer to that name. Because, after so many years, it’s a Return to Monkey Island for Ron too. Other than that, nah.

 

9 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

I doubt there's any real bad blood. I get the feeling that Ron is generally too stoic for that sort of thing. And Dave doesn't seem to be the type to harbour grudges. Of course they're all just people too, so I'm sure they've occasionally had problems, like anyone does. I remember Tim himself describing how he was a jerk to work with during Day of the Tentacle, for example (in Rogue Leaders). 

I hope they’re okay. But, going by that post, there might be some bad blood. I can imagine when you’re going to work for an old design buddy, and him doing something that made you quit the first job in the first place, doesn’t really sit well. He might even resent the fact that Tim didn’t sell him the IP before the Microsoft deal. I could imagine that too. We’re all humans in that sense, though I hope they’re on speaking terms.

[Vainamoinen]

Some people don't like the new art style for being just too different from previous Monkey Island games. Those same people dread that Ron Gilbert would just unload cob webbed nostalgia boxes with the same old characters and islands and mechanics with this game. So in essence they believe that ReMI would modernize where it doesn't count for them, but not modernize where it would count for them. That's ... wildly pessimist, I think. 💀

[ThunderPeel2001]

2 hours ago, Vainamoinen said:

Some people don't like the new art style for being just too different from previous Monkey Island games. Those same people dread that Ron Gilbert would just unload cob webbed nostalgia boxes with the same old characters and islands and mechanics with this game. So in essence they believe that ReMI would modernize where it doesn't count for them, but not modernize where it would count for them. That's ... wildly pessimist, I think. 💀

 

As one of the people who didn't like the art style when it was revealed, I have to say you're absolutely right. There's no objective argument here, it's purely subjective. *I* didn't like the art style, but *I* wanted the music and controls modernised.

 

Really *I* just have to suck it up and hope I enjoy the final game!

Edited May 3, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[Laserschwert]

Good to see you FINALLY join, @Vainamoinen... only took you like 20 years.

[KestrelPi]

I think everyone just sort of assumed that a game would eventually be called Return to Monkey Island.

 

There's only so many things that can fit into the Something Something Monkey Island format and we've had Secret of, Escape From and Tales of so far. So unless they went for an MI2 style title, there's not much else that fits and it's not surprising that an April Fools joke from years ago guessed the title.

Murder on Monkey Island?

Peril on Monkey Island?

The Sequel of Monkey Island?
The Other Secret of Monkey Island?

Back to Monkey Island?

Adventures on Monkey Island?

The Treasure of Monkey Island?

 

... hmm, no matter how you slice it, Return to Monkey Island was just the most obvious name for a new Monkey Island game. The real problem will be if they make another one, what will they call THAT?

 

[Lagomorph01]

2 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

The real problem will be if they make another one, what will they call THAT?

Return to Monkey Island Returns! Duh! 😜

[Jake]

20 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

The real problem will be if they make another one, what will they call THAT?

“Beneath Monkey Island.” It’ll actually be a huge sellout, washed up pandering mess.

[Zaxx]

1 hour ago, KestrelPi said:

I think everyone just sort of assumed that a game would eventually be called Return to Monkey Island.

 

While in the other timeline everyone expected Revenge of Monkey Island.

[KestrelPi]

3 minutes ago, Zaxx said:

 

While in the other timeline everyone expected Revenge of Monkey Island.

Problem with that one is we already had 'LeChuck's Revenge' so revenge is done.