Telltale's Sam & Max games getting remastered

[Zaxx]

28 minutes ago, TimeGentleman said:

 

When I said "I'd also like to add that 'because they might make decisions that anger Nazis' is a shoddy reason to NOT want a dev company to do a remaster", I was referring to you saying "Backlash, less sales, an army of trolls review bombing and warning people who'd want to buy everywhere, people calling each other racists or nazis in the community just because some people happen to prefer the old voice actor etc. I saw that once, it was really stupid, I'd rather not watch the rerun thank you very much." as a reason for not wanting Skunkape to remaster Tales, in the RTMI thread.

I won't say anything else, because elTee has already asked us to move on, but I wanted to clarify that.

That's fair, I didn't make the connection because I identify those people differently. When it comes to that I just think that Skunkape made a few mistakes with the changes that served as easy bait to get people riled up. For example I remember being very confused when it turned out that some lines were changed because none of that was discussed before launch and of course people started to speculate immediately and just blew the thing out of proportion. The altered lines were as unimportant as the stump joke in MI, they didn't matter all, the fact that they were changed was the only reason people paid attention to them for the first time in human history.

 

What I'm trying to say is that I think there were ways to make all the changes they made but present them in a way that avoids the backlash. Yes, a compromise for that would be including the original voice too but that's better than letting people download a mod that puts the original compressed sound files right into the shiny new remaster the developers spent a year working on. Especially when the original episodes are included and available anyway that feels like a weird limitation that says "you can hear the original performance too but only if you play with the old graphics".

Edited April 21, 2022 by Zaxx

[ATMcashpoint]

I will say that, while I generally like the remasters and understand the reasons for changing Bosco's voice actor, I thought rewriting Bosco's dialogue in the Season 1 remaster crossed a line of revisionism that was better left un-crossed. I was glad Skunkape avoided that in the Season 2 remaster.

[elTee]

4 minutes ago, Zaxx said:

What I'm trying to say is that I think there were ways to make all the changes they made but present them in a way that avoids the backlash. Yes, a compromise for that would be including the original voice too but that's better than letting people download a mod that puts the original compressed sound files right into the shiny new remaster the developers spent a year working on.

 

I think in reality there's a big problem with this, simply because there ARE bad actors out there who will weaponise ANY THING THEY CAN to perpetuate a culture war. Things like the race of a voice actor vs the race of the character are prime fodder for them, because they can use it to craft a narrative that white people are being oppressed in some way. They're doing this to push against the concept of "white privilege" because it's a privilege that these same people ENJOY HAVING.

 

What I am trying to say is that I think Skunkape were damned if they did this, and damned if they didn't. Recast and piss off the white supremacists, or don't recast and piss off the people who find this type of thing offensive. And anyone who simply prefers the original voices (for whatever reason) gets caught in the crossfire. I guess Skunkape simply prefer to be damned by far-right trolls than by decent inclusive people. That was a brave choice and one I respect them for. As others have said, I also think it's objectively the RIGHT choice.

[Zaxx]

11 minutes ago, elTee said:

 

I think in reality there's a big problem with this, simply because there ARE bad actors out there who will weaponise ANY THING THEY CAN to perpetuate a culture war. Things like the race of a voice actor vs the race of the character are prime fodder for them, because they can use it to craft a narrative that white people are being oppressed in some way. They're doing this to push against the concept of "white privilege" because it's a privilege that these same people ENJOY HAVING.

 

What I am trying to say is that I think Skunkape were damned if they did this, and damned if they didn't. Recast and piss off the white supremacists, or don't recast and piss off the people who find this type of thing offensive. And anyone who simply prefers the original voices (for whatever reason) gets caught in the crossfire. I guess Skunkape simply prefer to be damned by far-right trolls than by decent inclusive people. That was a brave choice and one I respect them for. As others have said, I also think it's objectively the RIGHT choice.

Yes, certainly, I'm just not sure that opening (or giving bad actors the opportunity to open) that small front in the culture war was necessary in order to do the right thing. For example why was it important to re-record Bosco with a black actor? Because a black actor should have gotten that role in the first place, once you fix that then ultimately it doesn't matter if you include the original performance or not. I admit it's a utilitarian way of looking at it but since the original games won't disappear it kind of makes the most sense anyway.

 

On top of that it's a bit of the "conservatives watch Star Trek too" problem again where Star Trek has this super leftist, liberal world view while also promoting traditional military values through how the Federation and Starfleet operate. It's hard to take any kind of entertainment and a put a "leftist" stamp on it especially when that entertainment is about two authority figures fighting crime. There are ways to make gestures to the past while working for the future I guess.

[Jenni]

1 hour ago, Zaxx said:

There are ways to make gestures to the past while working for the future I guess.

Skunkape does exactly this. It offers the original version as free DLC.

[Zaxx]

24 minutes ago, Jenni said:

Skunkape does exactly this. It offers the original version as free DLC.

Yeah well my shelf and my Steam library offer the original version too.  And as I've said the fact that you get that too when buying the remaster is kind of just another reason to restore the remasters with a Bosco voice pack to me. On top of that I'm pretty sure that all the lines being intact in season 2 was already a compromise plus I never really heard Skunkape talk badly about the original voice or the voice actor. They said that it made them cringe so they decided to change it, other than that they were respectful towards it which tells me that the fan reaction was overblown in both directions.

 

Overall all I can say in summary is that I'm not seeing a Skunkape developer being disgusted by having to touch the original recordings for some cleanup eventually shouting "why are they making me do this?" while drinking bottles of booze and hugging a bowl of ice cream. On the other hand I see a few happy people getting access to remastered Bosco after 2 years with some trenches of the culture war getting buried behind them. Would be cool too see while an actual war is happening on your doorstep right after you survived a worldwide pandemic.

 

Anyway any chance for a Hit the Road remaster? I replayed that a few months ago and unsurprisingly it holds up really well because it's a Lucasarts title.

[Niemandswasser]

I don't know how to put this any more clearly--they aren't putting the voice back in because they don't want to. Nothing you say about how easy you perceive it to be is going to change that, because the thing stopping them from doing it isn't that it's hard. It's that they don't want to do it. You wanting them to do it won't change their minds, because again, the thing stopping them isn't that they thought nobody would want it. It's that they don't want to do it. What that means, ultimately, is that they're not going to do it, and you are not going to convince them to do it. Believe me, I'm upset that Titus Welliver couldn't make it back for the Deadwood movie, but no amount of complaining on my part could ultimately alter the fundamental physical reality that he didn't want to stop filming Bosch to go do it.  Considering the fact that you yourself just ran through a list of options that you personally have--RIGHT NOW, at THIS VERY MINUTE--to play the game with the voice acting you want, and that Skunkape themselves made the originals available at NO EXTRA CHARGE, all you're coming across as is a spoiled kid who views it as a grave injustice that he can only have 97% of what he wants rather than 100%. You're not getting the thing you want, and that's not going to change. I implore you to learn the lesson the rest of us picked up when mom told us we couldn't have ice cream for breakfast and move on with your life.

[Zaxx]

14 minutes ago, Niemandswasser said:

I don't know how to put this any more clearly--they aren't putting the voice back in because they don't want to.

And that's fine too but why be so negative about it? The fact of the matter is that you don't know that, I don't know that, stances, opinions can evolve and change, people too. I've not given up on watching the original theatrical Star Wars trilogy remastered on Blu-ray one day either because why give up on anything that's 100% out of my power?

 

And you really don't have to be so aggressive towards me just because our opinions differ.

[Udvarnoky]

22 hours ago, Niemandswasser said:

Believe me, I'm upset that Titus Welliver couldn't make it back for the Deadwood movie, but no amount of complaining on my part could ultimately alter the fundamental physical reality that he didn't want to stop filming Bosch to go do it. 

 

This is probably the last part of your post you expected to be replied to, but as a fellow Deadwood fan I'd point out that he probably couldn't break his commitment to Bosch to do it.

 

Anyway, I'd sooner try to touch the moon than figure TV schedulin'. And after all, you can't go cutting the throat of everyone whose character it would improve.

[ThunderPeel2001]

On 4/22/2022 at 12:18 AM, Zaxx said:

Yes, certainly, I'm just not sure that opening (or giving bad actors the opportunity to open) that small front in the culture war was necessary in order to do the right thing. For example why was it important to re-record Bosco with a black actor? Because a black actor should have gotten that role in the first place, once you fix that then ultimately it doesn't matter if you include the original performance or not. I admit it's a utilitarian way of looking at it but since the original games won't disappear it kind of makes the most sense anyway.

 

What you're suggesting implies a toggle to switch off ALL the changes that the Remasters made (which were a LOT more than just recasting Bosco and rewriting a few minor lines), because why should they just cater to YOU and nobody else who wants another specific change reversed?

 

Which brings us back to the original reply that elTee made to you: 

 

Quote

It almost sounds like what you want is a version of the game that keeps the graphical improvements, because you've deemed those to be acceptable, but that also lets you choose which other aspects of the game are "original" or "updated". That's fine if that's what you want, but let's not pretend that's an objective desire for "the original". That's what YOU want. And again, it's okay to want that. But why do you expect to find it in anything except your original version that you fell in love with?

 

And round and round we go...

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[Zaxx]

19 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

What you're suggesting implies a toggle to switch off ALL the changes that the Remasters made (which were a LOT more than just recasting Bosco and rewriting a few minor lines), because why should they just cater to YOU and nobody else who wants another specific change reversed?

 

Which brings us back to the original reply that elTee made to you: 

 

 

And round and round we go...

 

 

 

I think that remasters is a very interesting subject in general and I'd love to hear opinions on this so bare with me, this will be long. I think the idea of "original" vs. "updated" that elTee suggests is flawed or rather only partially true.

 

Just to keep up with my habit of steering off topic: why do you think that a lot of people don't like the graphics of Secret of MI SE? Is it because it's ugly or because some parts of the art (forest...) are obviously unfinished? Nope, I think it's because it fully reinterprets the original art style: it makes the game look more stylized and in general it feels to be more in line with Curse than anything else. (Sidenote: I think the SE looks nice because I was always on the opinion that the original game's art style was inconsistent and SE fixes that but that's beside the point, I still prefer the original.) The point: it doesn't feel like an authentic version of SoMI.

 

I think that's what people in general want from a remaster: a feeling of authenticity. Note that I didn't say actual authenticity, just the sense that what you're playing preserves what people who played the original version felt back in the day. I think it's very much possible to keep a remaster authentic to its original self as long as nothing gets reinterpreted in the sense that the meaning is altered.

 

For example in the beginning of the Sam & Max remaster there's that small bit where they are interrogating Jimmy and in the remaster the lights go out too visually indicating that there's an interrogation going on. Sure, an alteration was made to the scene but that doesn't reinterpret anything, rather it just enhances the original meaning of portraying an interrogation. It's that extra flavor that makes the scene work for a new audience that expects those visual additions nowadays. When a voice actor gets changed however that naturally brings with it a different interpretation of a character, one where Bosco is a bit less crazy and a bit more tame (and sure, less stereotypical).

 

It's how the Star Wars special editions and later releases steer further and further away from the original movie that won all those Oscars back in 1978 and the one most of us haven't even seen. Yes, people like complaining about the added special effects too because CGI just wasn't a great choice for all that old school effects work but the biggest complaints are always directed at things that change how a scene is interpreted ("who shot first?" and the like).

 

So yeah, there is that purist niche who stop at "the original is what was released back then and that's what I want to play", those are the people elTee can refer to and they are being served by Skunkape bundling the original versions with the remaster. There's also the type of player (and there are certainly more of them than of the purist type) who wants the illusion that he's playing an authentic version but "oh well, I won't complain if there are better effects and graphics thrown in there". They look at comparison shots, conclude that they are close enough, have a look at what people are saying ("it's just like how I remembered I swear") and off they go to buy the remaster. If they see a bunch of "they changed some lines and a voice actor" then they won't buy the remaster because that breaks the illusion of authenticity.

 

Now I'm just as selfish as the avarage consumer and I do admit that I'd love it if Skunkape catered to me but if you look at what kind of products are hitting virtual store shelves these days what I just described is the type of person most remasters are actually aimed at. In just a few years companies did their market research and arrived at the conclusion that people want the illusion of authenticity so that's exactly what remasters contain. Of course it's up to personal taste if a voice actor change only hurts or downright shatters the illusion of authenticity but I think it's a safe bet to say that most agree that there was an alteration made in this case.

 

To me that's the perspective that's worth looking at this from instead of imaginary bad actors, the culture war (which is something 90% of the world's population simply doesn't care about so it won't really affect their consumer choices) and whatever else. Is it a good product that fullfills the market requirements for a remaster? Yep, it's 90% there but it's competing on a market that expects 100% as the bare minimum now.

 

And if you read all that you're awesome.

[TimeGentleman]

It's really gross how you keep saying that Nazis are mythical and imaginary, and how no one in the world cares about racism. It's also incorrect.

[Rum Rogers]

Came here just to check that the conversation got heated as I expected.
It did.

[Udvarnoky]

I'm just more excited than ever by the idea of Skunkape remastering TMI. Is there someone I can write to?

[Zaxx]

2 hours ago, TimeGentleman said:

It's really gross how you keep saying that Nazis are mythical and imaginary, and how no one in the world cares about racism. It's also incorrect.

I see that you managed to get the point.  Don't you think that the conversation could do without this aspect though? Honestly it's such weird baggage to have and sort of only hammers home the point that you guys seem to keep coming back to without noticing it: that the only reason for the change is the fight against racial stereotypes. So it's not something that's needed to improve the game's narrative internally but rather it's a message to send out.

 

Well, a few things about that if you may and I'll try to be brief because I really think it's pointless to keep coming back to this road:

 

- Sure, the new voice makes Bosco sound less stereotypical but it also absolutely doesn't solve any of the problems with his character. His lines are still the same, he is still a racial stereotype and the Apu of Sam & Max, the minority store owner character that makes you cringe nowadays. This is a problem that's inherent to the game's narrative and only a full remake could solve it. The same goes for something like ToMI's merfolk giving off suspiciously transphobic vibes, there is no way to fix that, the joke will always be that it's hard to identify their gender. These are old games, these things happened back in the day and none of us noticed.

 

- Coming back to the same point of fighting racism only underlines that the voice actor switch was unnecessary, it kind of gives off the vibe that the audience should put up with a voice that's less authentic to what the character is so that they could feel better about themselves supporting a game that has such an ugly racial stereotype in it. /s

 

I kinda get the feeling that if the game wasn't self published but some kind of publisher oversight was involved then the voice actor would have never been changed because really you can come up with 500 reasons on why not to make the change from minor financial ones to the audience just not being interested in a new voice actor for a franchise that already had problems with that.

 

When it comes to me personally I'm just curious on how cleaned up OG Bosco would have sounded like and to experience that is kind of why I buy every second game and music album remaster under the sun. Yes, I can interpret that what I would hear is a racial stereotype but as an adult customer I think I'd be able to deal with that just like how I can replay Full Throttle Remastered when I know that Darrel is voiced by a white guy doing the "black guy voice" (and he's less of a racial stereotype than Bosco is, I mean he's a black guy in a motorcycle club :D). I wouldn't want that for a new product but the point of the remaster is to hear a cleaned up version of what was recorded back in the 90s, that's what the term remaster means literally.

 

So yeah, I get it, thinking that nazis review bombed the game, that we're in this war to fight on the right side is a comfortable bubble to be in. And I have to admit I see the potential fun in coming up with Proud Boys jokes too but you know, it's just really far from a realistic perspective on how gaming communities and consumers in general work. And yeah, if I made my purchase decisions based on how something appeals to me morally / politically I still wouldn't have bought the game with these changes because Bosco still kinda sucks as a character.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Zaxx

[ThunderPeel2001]

I read it all, so I guess I'm awesome.

 

15 hours ago, Zaxx said:

I think that's what people in general want from a remaster: a feeling of authenticity. Note that I didn't say actual authenticity, just the sense that what you're playing preserves what people who played the original version felt back in the day. I think it's very much possible to keep a remaster authentic to its original self as long as nothing gets reinterpreted in the sense that the meaning is altered.

 

This is completely subjective, which was elTee's point. You're just saying, "this was important to me, so therefore I should have the option to disable it". 

 

You're trying to argue that there's some objective standard that we all could agree and adhere to, but even if use your Star Wars example, that simply isn't true: Things in Empire and Jedi were changed in order to tie those films better into the prequel trilogy. Dialogue was rewritten. Actors were replaced. Objectively the meanings of several scenes were altered.

 

But the biggest complaint by far, the one that led to fans going berserk, was the one you cited: Han not shooting first in the original film. Which arguably had far less impact on meaning than the other changes but which drew far less ire from fans. It's all inconsistent.

 

And despite what you've said about SFX changes being acceptable to most fans because no "meaning" was changed, there are several high profile Star Wars restoration projects and they're ALL focused on removing every single change that has happened since 1977. Not just the infamous Greedo scene. In fact if there is a project that removes that single scene and keeps the other modern changes, I've not heard of it. But could list the others off the top of my head: 4K77 and Harmy's Despecialised Edition.

 

For the fans who care the most, the ones who are prepared to put thousands of man hours into these projects, it's all or nothing: They want the untouched original.

 

So there is no real consistency: There are just different camps of people who believe certain things are important. And because you belong to one particular camp, you think you represent the majority.

 

Which again brings us back around the original point: This is all subjective. What's important to you is not important to me. And vice versa. And even if you find a subreddit somewhere that is a home to a lot of people who all agree on one point, it does not mean that their opinion is more valid, important or objective. It's just one of the dangers of the internet: It can easily make you feel that your opinion is the only sound-minded one out there by putting you in an echo chamber.

 

And what's worse: You put things out about "censorship" and "wokeness" and other people, who actually don't care as much, will parrot back what they've heard. Like people who only read the headlines of news articles.

 

Objectively speaking, changing Bosco's voice doesn't alter the meaning of anything. Nor does removing references to special needs children. But for you it alters the "authenticity" (the meaning of which could be debated in itself) of the experience. For me it doesn't. It's still all subjective. 

 

As for your comment about ignoring "imaginary bad actors", this has been addressed several times already. In short, the dev team did not wish to put their name to something they felt uncomfortable releasing. They were prepared to potentially upset some fans in order for them to be happier with what people played. In other words, they put their principles before money.

 

Anyway this conversation has gone on far too long. I can't believe there's a single point that hasn't been covered by now. And I suspect that if people really do care that someone will release a patch that inserts the original dialogue into the remaster anyway.

Edited April 24, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[TimeGentleman]

1 hour ago, Zaxx said:

Don't you think that the conversation could do without this aspect though? Honestly it's such weird baggage to have ...  I really think it's pointless to keep coming back to this road

 

Nice try, but you're the one who brought this all up originally, and you're the one who came back to it with your 'culture war' rant. That's the only reason I came back into the conversation.

[Zaxx]

1 hour ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

I read it all, so I guess I'm awesome.

 

 

This is completely subjective, which was elTee's point. You're just saying, "this was important to me, so therefore I should have the option to disable it". 

 

You're trying to argue that there's some objective standard that we all could agree and adhere to, but even if use your Star Wars example, that simply isn't true: Things in Empire and Jedi were changed in order to tie those films better into the prequel trilogy. Dialogue was rewritten. Actors were replaced. Objectively the meanings of several scenes were altered.

 

But the biggest complaint by far, the one that led to fans going berserk, was the one you cited: Han not shooting first in the original film. Which arguably had far less impact on meaning than the other changes.

 

And despite what you've said about SFX changes being acceptable to most fans because no "meaning" was changed, plenty of fans were unhappy with the new special effects, too, arguing that even improving them was damaging to film history. In fact, there are several high profile Star Wars restoration projects and they're ALL focused on removing every single change that has happened since 1977. Not just the infamous Greedo scene. In fact if there is a project that removes that single scene and keeps the other modern changes, I've not heard of it.

 

For the fans who care the most, the ones who are prepared to put thousands of man hours into these projects, it's all or nothing: They want the untouched original.

 

So there is no real consistency: There are just different camps of people who believe certain things are important. And because you belong to one particular camp, you think you represent the majority.

 

Which again brings us back around the original point: This is all subjective. What's important to you is not important to me. And vice versa. And even if you find a subreddit somewhere that is a home to a lot of people who all agree on one point, it does not mean that their opinion is more valid, important or objective. It's just one of the dangers of the internet: It can easily make you feel that your opinion is the only sound-minded one out there by putting you in an echo chamber.

 

And what's worse: You put things out about "censorship" and "wokeness" and other people, who actually don't care as much, will parrot back what they've heard. Like people who only read the headlines of news articles.

 

Objectively speaking, changing Bosco's voice doesn't alter the meaning of anything. Nor does removing references to special needs children. But for you it alters the "authenticity" (the meaning of which could be debated in itself) of the experience. For me it doesn't. It's still all subjective. 

 

As for your comment about ignoring "imaginary bad actors", this has been addressed several times already. In short, the dev team did not wish to put their name to something they felt uncomfortable releasing. They were prepared to potentially upset some fans in order for them to be happier with what people played. In other words, they put their principles before money.

 

Anyway this conversation has gone on far too long. I can't believe there's a single point that hasn't been covered by now. And I suspect that if people really do care that someone will release a patch that inserts the original dialogue into the remaster anyway.

 

Just a few points:

 

- I think it's very much the result of the narrative changes that people hate the added special effects in Star Wars too. With that said in that case I'd restore the original movies as much as humanly possible because of the reason of preserving movie history.

 

- My opinion on perceived authenticity doesn't only come from my personal perspective but (as my comment tried to point that out) also from an analysis of what modern remasters contain. And they contain exactly what I said (updated graphics, cleaned up everything else) so I'd say that's pretty much an objective representation of what the audience expectation is.

 

- As for what's important to me not being important to you: you did say that you prefer the original performance too before so I'm willing to guess that if you were given the option you'd play with the Joey Camen performance. Why can't we just establish common ground in admitting this much? 

 

- Yep, I agree that fundamentally Bosco wasn't changed by the voice acting and I didn't say that the change is something super important for everyone, as I've said in my next post I agree that he's still a racial stereotype. What you feel about things is not always rational though, it's mostly controlled by emotions, that's why I was talking about the sense of authenticity and not what actual authenticity would be.

 

Quote

As for your comment about ignoring "imaginary bad actors", this has been addressed several times already. In short, the dev team did not wish to put their name to something they felt uncomfortable releasing. They were prepared to potentially upset some fans in order for them to be happier with what people played. In other words, they put their principles before money.

I think saying this is somewhat disingenuous. They put their principles before money? Yeah, I guess but the decision also affected a somehwat large portion of the audience's enjoyment and I think that's something we shouldn't forget about. Reading back old posts the change did bother quite a few people, even some Mojo regulars refunded the game and only bought it again after some extensive discussions. Now I pretty much consider Mojo this bubble of Lucasarts love so I'd say that seeing that reaction here most likely means that there were quite a few people who weren't happy about not getting the "100% remaster" they wanted.

 

This is the best part of your comment though, I can't be grateful enough for you pointing this out:

Quote

And what's worse: You put things out about "censorship" and "wokeness" and other people, who actually don't care as much, will parrot back what they've heard. Like people who only read the headlines of news articles.

Yes, this is exactly how you create an army of trolls that could seem like an army of nazis even but this is also why it's very dangerous to think in principles when it comes to releasing an entertainment product. I'm no game dev, I don't know how that works but I know pretty well how people work: they don't like it if politics cause a disturbance in their lives. That disturbance doesn't have to be huge, it could be something meaningless because it's all about emotions: people fear the idea of censorship so it's enough to do something that could be referred to as censorship when it's being looked at from 1000 miles away. There was a thing, that thing is no longer there, instead there's another thing now = censorship, it's enough.

 

This is why is it that when radical right propagandists / pundits see something like what happened with Sam & Max and Skunkape they are like "oh this is great, they are doing my job for me again, let's make a video and tell people how terrible this is". And yeah, that army of trolls won't really affect the sales of Sam & Max but that audience gets this type of content a lot and you know what they do every 4 years? They go out to vote and they are making the radical right stronger ever since the left started doing this kind of thing. They are like "you think I can't enjoy my old movies again? you're calling me racist? what gives you the right?" and then they go and vote Le Pen, they vote Orbán who all have campaigns built around this thing.

 

So at the end there's this thing that steered a few people away from the product and it ultimately didn't do a huge amount of harm to the product itself but it fuelled a machine that's only running on this thing. This is why I believe that ultimately it's wrong to try forcing a cultural change and it's just much better to ride and support the waves that are naturally heading towards progressive ideologies if not disturbed. I think people actually sense this, I mean it's surely not random that we call it a "war" even though a state of war is obviously not a time of progress but rather the opposite.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Zaxx

[Zaxx]

5 minutes ago, TimeGentleman said:

 

Nice try, but you're the one who brought this all up originally, and you're the one who came back to it with your 'culture war' rant. That's the only reason I came back into the conversation.

It's not a rant, just an opinion piece.

[Jake]

May I humbly ask that this conversation end now? I am reading the same few people swirl around the same points now for many many posts. Anyone reading from the outside can clearly see where everyone recently involved in this thread stands on the broad points and many of the specific nuances of their points, and none of you are going to change each other’s minds. 

[Lagomorph01]

1 hour ago, Jake said:

May I humbly ask that this conversation end now? I am reading the same few people swirl around the same points now for many many posts. Anyone reading from the outside can clearly see where everyone recently involved in this thread stands on the broad points and many of the specific nuances of their points, and none of you are going to change each other’s minds. 

I second this. This discussion isn’t going anywhere.

[Rum Rogers]

Yes please.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Actually it's been a steady rotation of people, like a tag team. But either way, I'm bored now. I'll always remember this quote:

 

3 hours ago, Zaxx said:

it's very dangerous to think in principles when it comes to releasing an entertainment product

 

It's super important to not be led by your principles when making entertainment! Or doing anything at all. Let that be a lesson for us all 

[Zaxx]

1 hour ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

It's super important to not be led by your principles when making entertainment! Or doing anything at all. Let that be a lesson for us all 

Yeah, I think I'll just won't bother if we keep going back to bad faith misinterpretations of the points I wasted paragraphs on explaining properly exactly because I wanted to provide clear explanations. Doesn't change the fact that from hindsight Skunkape clearly made a very unnecessary mistake here since one of the biggest problems of the discussion seems to be a failure to rationalize the decision... most likely because it's irrational.

[elTee]

What part of Jake's request are you guys struggling with?