Return to Monkey Island

[KestrelPi]

3 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

• It could mean that it starts at the end of MI2 but then there's a lengthy time skip to after all the other games, and we largely ignore them and tell a new story with a slightly older guybrush (this is my favourite pet theory at the moment)

 

The reason I like this one so much, is that it neatly explains a lot of things that have been said and shown already:
 

• It explains how the other games can be 'canon' without being particularly beholden to them. It gives them more freedom than anything
• It makes a lot of sense next to this bit from Ars Technica:
  
• The idea just makes the title 'Return to Monkey Island' feel even better
• Sure it might be that we haven't seen any characters yet because they want to reveal that later... but it COULD be that they don't want to show us that yet because they've visibly aged and they're not ready to reveal that yet.

[OzzieMonkey]

3 minutes ago, Toymafia1988 said:

If there is a time skip will it ignore the cliffhanger of Tales and do its own thing or will we see an evil voodoo lady in this one.

 

Ron has said before he'd rather avoid the baggage of continuing someone elses story... unless the plot twist of the evil voodoo lady was an idea of Ron's that he gave them when he gave his input on Tales.

 

I should point out that Ron has said a lot of things that he seems to have changed his mind on. 
 

On the Voodoo Lady..boy would I love to see more of that developed, it was my favourite part of the last 2 chapters. I think they could largely ignore how it was done in Tales because Guybrush pretty much went to trusting her by the end, so then we get to see Ron's take on the whole thing. Also, I never really saw the reveal as saying she was evil, just that she was meddling in the fates of Guybrush and LeChuck to keep balance in the universe by ensuring that there was always an evil pirate with a hero to conquer him. If anything, that cliffhanger could suggest that she had chosen Morgan to replace Guybrush as that hero in a spinoff. Then again...that laugh she does in the post credit scene is rather sinister, and who knows what she intended to use LeChuck's essence in a bottle for...or Guybrush's hand, for that matter.

[MurraySchull]

Yeah, having the beginning section explaining how Guybrush got out of the amusement park (weather it be the first half, third, or even prologue) followed by a screen stating "31 years later" or whatever, I think would be the neatest way to sidestep the other games while still allowing them to be part of the overall canon. Something that links the amusement park section with the rest of the post-Tales section of the game would be a nice way of making it feel like a complete story too (thinking along the lines of the opening scenes of Iron Man 3 or Toy Story 4, which have events that set up the rest of the movie with those scenes taking place before some of the movies that preceded them.)

[OzzieMonkey]

5 minutes ago, fentongames said:

Yeah, having the beginning section explaining how Guybrush got out of the amusement park (weather it be the first half, third, or even prologue) followed by a screen stating "31 years later" or whatever, I think would be the neatest way to sidestep the other games while still allowing them to be part of the overall canon. Something that links the amusement park section with the rest of the post-Tales section of the game would be a nice way of making it feel like a complete story too (thinking along the lines of the opening scenes of Iron Man 3 or Toy Story 4, which have events that set up the rest of the movie with those scenes taking place before some of the movies that preceded them.)

Yep. It's very common for stories to open in the past where events in that time effect the overall narrative of the main story. 

 

Not once has Ron said that the entire game takes place after 2, just that he wanted the game to start there, probably because he wanted to give closure to fans on that ending but also to pick up where he left off. As far as the rest of the game goes, we now know that nothing was set in stone plot-wise, so anything could happen. I doubt that any story he wanted to tell necessitated taking place entirely before the games he didn't work on; it also means that placing the bulk of the story in the furthest point in the timeline means he's free to use any character he wants, his own or others (like Murray) without any contradictions. 

[MurraySchull]

18 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

It sounds like Ron has decided to be mischievous after all. No neat bows on this ending.

 

I'd be okay with some things not being resolved as I know that's just Ron's way, but since we're getting a whole new game that's a direct sequel to MI2, I'd hope for clarifications on at least some of the plot threads raised near the end of that game (i.e. Guybrush/LeChuck being brothers, what's real and what isn't, etc. And hell, the secret itself has been a secret for long enough!)

[KestrelPi]

49 minutes ago, fentongames said:

 

I'd be okay with some things not being resolved as I know that's just Ron's way, but since we're getting a whole new game that's a direct sequel to MI2, I'd hope for clarifications on at least some of the plot threads raised near the end of that game (i.e. Guybrush/LeChuck being brothers, what's real and what isn't, etc. And hell, the secret itself has been a secret for long enough!)

Yeah I agree with that. If Monkey Island is a mystery box then I'm okay with that, but a good mystery box will provide just enough answers to give some closure/satisfaction, while introducing enough new stuff to keep things mysterious. If we just keep piling mysteries on top of the existing mysteries, they comes a point where people will just lose interest because they stop believing there's an answer to be found.

That said, I'm fine with ambiguity and it never being truly explained if what's going on is this or that. I think a lot of Monkey Island plays with ambiguity.  I just don't want that to be in the form of 'more weird stuff that does nothing to address the old weird stuff'

[Zaxx]

6 hours ago, Toymafia1988 said:

I really like Tales of Monkey Island.

 

My big issue with it though was the cliffhanger ending with the voodoo lady.

 

It just cheapens Tales and makes it feel unfinished.

 

Don't do a cliffhanger unless you have a confirmed sequel on the way. 

 

Maybe they were trying to create a cliffhanger like mi2 or maybe it was attempt to force lucasarts to let them do a sequel.

 

Yep, that's why I don't like ToMI's ending either though I only really don't like the notion of the Voodoo Lady being evil. The game gets over that plot point fairly quickly, it's resolved and then it comes back as a cliffhanger at the end... meh.

 

And yeah, the other aspect of it is that I was fairly certain a season two was on the way after seeing the cliffhanger and then it just never happened. That even kinda goes against the title of "Tales of" Monkey Island since we only got the one and I think the ending at least gave a few nice ideas on where a season two could have gone. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Zaxx

[Zaxx]

1 hour ago, fentongames said:

Yeah, having the beginning section explaining how Guybrush got out of the amusement park (weather it be the first half, third, or even prologue) followed by a screen stating "31 years later" or whatever, I think would be the neatest way to sidestep the other games while still allowing them to be part of the overall canon.

 

It also would be kind of boring though? I'm sure that if they go that route they'll come up with a twist that makes it interesting instead of "hey wake up it's 30 years later" but the time jump is a pretty overused plot device. Even Leisure Suit Larry could do it well (in the new games Larry is a clone of his 1987 self that wakes up in 2018) so it's not exactly something that would worry me about a new game but I'd much rather see something crazier.

 

What would worry me is if they aged up Guybrush because I just don't like it when a classic character gets aged up but still keeps acting like his younger self. Again it's something that could be avoided but I can't really think of many examples where that was handled well (Rocky Balboa?) and most of it was like "here's 120 year old Han Solo, look he's even wearing the same clothes he did 50 years ago". You know what's the character trait that Han Solo and Indiana Jones have in common? They are middle aged, I don't want to watch an 80 year old man in Indy 5, thank you very much.

 

With comedy that might even be more detrimental to the character and you get something like Dumb & Dumber 2 where the things that were funny 25 years ago just look awkward when performed by 50+ people.

[Udvarnoky]

Doesn't the scene with Morgan and the Voodoo Lady take place after the credits? I just view that as a coda. Sure, that thread could have been continued in a hypothetical second season, but I don't know how likely that ever was, and the game's primary conflicts were resolved. Kissing off those characters on an ambiguous note works fine. I don't see it as like, egregious unfinished business for the series.

[ThunderPeel2001]

2 hours ago, fentongames said:

(i.e. Guybrush/LeChuck being brothers, what's real and what isn't, etc. And hell, the secret itself has been a secret for long enough!)

 

You know, that was a question I've never worried about. Although (now I think about it) I think Ron has been guilty of poking the flames of it, making it seem like more than it was. I mean, surely the secret is just that there's a portal to hell on it that you enter via a giant dead monkey? Why have people assumed there's more than that (unless it's an explanation as to WHY there's a giant dead monkey that leads to hell on it?)

[Jake]

9 hours ago, Lagomorph01 said:

(and in the end wishing they had the balls to make it permanent)

Not sure whose balls you're talking about here but we weren't allowed to.

 

In regards to the post-credits scene in Tales, I feel like the team was okay with it even if we never got to do a followup because while it can imply some huge story if people wanted to use it, it could also be just another turn of the crank, the same as the end of Curse and Escape, eg LeChuck buried under a mountain of ice (and then somehow he returns because he always does). If a future game doesn't pick up that thread, I don't think it's too harmful to leave behind "Morgan is now the voodoo lady's lackey, off on business that may never cross paths with our heroes again." That's not to say folks shouldn't feel burned or annoyed by that scene, but I think we had hoped it was open enough to not be damaging if it was never picked up again*

 

*I do hope someone picks it up again of course, that would rule.

[Thrik]

I am pretty sure it’s the presence of a gigantic robotic monkey that’s the secret. If you look closely at the skeleton, it’s strangely metallic. Could it be operated, I wonder.

 

[TimeGentleman]

16 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

You know, that was a question I've never worried about. Although (now I think about it) I think Ron has been guilty of poking the flames of it, making it seem like more than it was. I mean, surely the secret is just that there's a portal to hell on it that you enter via a giant dead monkey? Why have people assumed there's more than that (unless it's an explanation as to WHY there's a giant dead monkey that leads to hell on it?)

 

Yeah, it feels to me like the 'secret' of Monkey island was just a generic adventure title meant to refer to how it's difficult to get to, the monkey head portal etc. And then in the second one whenever anyone asks what is the secret of monkey island, that's just a running joke about how the title is no longer really relevant. But that got picked up on by fans (and subsequent games, but to what extent they're in on the joke I'm not sure) as a legit mystery.

[Rum Rogers]

6 minutes ago, TimeGentleman said:

 

Yeah, it feels to me like the 'secret' of Monkey island was just a generic adventure title meant to refer to how it's difficult to get to, the monkey head portal etc. And then in the second one whenever anyone asks what is the secret of monkey island, that's just a running joke about how the title is no longer really relevant. But that got picked up on by fans (and subsequent games, but to what extent they're in on the joke I'm not sure) as a legit mystery.

Well, when Guybrush asks the pirates in the SCUMM Bar "What is the secret of Monkey Island?" he's told that "Only LeChuck knows.", so I guess it was an actual thing in the first game already.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Rum Rogers

[Jake]

7 minutes ago, TimeGentleman said:

(and subsequent games, but to what extent they're in on the joke I'm not sure)

I can't speak for the other games, but on Tales what was fun was knowing that because of the end of Monkey 2, there was always this feeling of some crackling unknowability that existed at the edge of the game's universe, and that it was there to play with when working on the game, and sort of dare yourself to get up close to. Sometimes I think Tales got too close and sometimes I think it didn't get close enough.

 

  

3 minutes ago, Rum Rogers said:

Well, when Guybrush asks the pirates in the SCUMM Bar "What is the secret of Monkey Island?" he's being told "Only LeChuck knows.", so I guess it was an actual thing in the first game already.

That could just as easily be talking about "how do you get to Monkey Island and what will I find once you get there?"

[KestrelPi]

Well, the first one definitely refers to LeChuck sailing off in search of the Secret of Monkey Island, at least. But I'm pretty sure the only reason Ron would reveal the Secret of Monkey Island at this point would be if he was sick of people asking about it at the expense of more interesting things.

[Rum Rogers]

1 minute ago, Jake said:

That could just as easily be talking about "how do you get to Monkey Island and what will I find once you get there?"

I'm not one that wants to absolutely believe there IS a secret, but it seems quite the stretch for a "What IS..." question. Especially as "IS" is all caps in-game.
There might be no secret, but it seems to me like that question refers to a specific unknown fact.
Doesn't mean they thought of a real secret, just something that exists in-game and even the authors might not care less about since they (possibly) never established what it is.

[Thrik]

The secret is surely the incredible abilities of the monkeys. They can command a ship, play the piano, and who knows what else.

[Rum Rogers]

2 minutes ago, Thrik said:

who knows what else

Love?

[Toymafia1988]

10 minutes ago, Rum Rogers said:

Love?

"Mmm monkey love" Ron Gilbert, 2013

Edited May 4, 2022 by Toymafia1988

[Laserschwert]

29 minutes ago, Jake said:

I can't speak for the other games, but on Tales what was fun was knowing that because of the end of Monkey 2, there was always this feeling of some crackling unknowability that existed at the edge of the game's universe, and that it was there to play with when working on the game, and sort of dare yourself to get up close to. Sometimes I think Tales got too close and sometimes I think it didn't get close enough.

There were the steel girders as the "ceiling" of the Afterlife in Episode 5, which never got picked up on again ever. When I first saw it, I was sure this was some nod to the amusement park concept.

[ThunderPeel2001]

38 minutes ago, Thrik said:

I am pretty sure it’s the presence of a gigantic robotic monkey that’s the secret. If you look closely at the skeleton, it’s strangely metallic. Could it be operated, I wonder.

 

 

That looks the opposite of robotic to me... A fleshy head (with ear wax) connected to a skeletal body underneath. It never once crossed my mind that it was supposed to be metallic. It's anatomically correct!

 

Is it true that Grossman supposedly said the secret was a giant robot monkey? (Hence Monkey Kombat) I just never understood that.

 

38 minutes ago, Jake said:

That could just as easily be talking about "how do you get to Monkey Island and what will I find once you get there?"

 

Exactly. It's the title of the game, so it's fun that Guybrush mentions it, but it's never mentioned again. And when he gets there he discovers a giant monkey (which presumably gave the island its name) which leads to a hellish underworld. Other than Guybrush stopping and saying, "So THIS is the Secret of Monkey Island!".

 

 

[Thrik]

12 minutes ago, Laserschwert said:

There were the steel girders as the "ceiling" of the Afterlife in Episode 5, which never got picked up on again ever. When I first saw it, I was sure this was some nod to the amusement park concept.

That whole sequence was quite inspired with the grog machine, music that sounds like the MI2 tunnels, etc.

[Remi]

3 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Exactly. It's the title of the game, so it's fun that Guybrush mentions it, but it's never mentioned again. And when he gets there he discovers a giant monkey (which presumably gave the island its name) which leads to a hellish underworld. Other than Guybrush stopping and saying, "So THIS is the Secret of Monkey Island!".

 

 

 

I just played through the EGA version -- the secret is definitely mentioned numerous times by different characters.

[Thrik]

3 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

That looks the opposite of robotic to me... A fleshy head (with ear wax) connected to a skeletal body underneath. It never once crossed my mind that it was supposed to be metallic. It's anatomically correct!

Do monkey ribs have that weird two-colour thing going on, with the brown/gold bits? I couldn’t find any examples in the 30 seconds I spent on Google, but then there are lots of types of simian.