How is someone 'Un-American'?

[The Doctor]

From where I'm standing, it actually sounds like they've got quite a firm grasp on how modern politics work...

[Yar-El]

The founding fathers did not come to America on the Mayflower, which arrived there in 1621, well before the declaration of independance was signed in 1776. At least some of them may have been religious (I don't know), but they nonetheless founded the United States as a secular nation. Thus, atheists are not in agreeance nor disagreeance with the founding fathers, who were apparently of the opinion that it doesn't matter what anyone believes.

 

In other words, a person's views on god(s) bears no relevancy to their American status.

Oh yeah. One of our founding fathers did. Hahaha...

 

Edit --

I have to correct myself. Christopher Columbus discovered the American continent; however, he wasn't involved with establishing the core government. My apology.

[True_Avery]

Oh yeah. One of our founding fathers did. Hahaha...

 

Edit --

I have to correct myself. Christopher Columbus discovered the American continent; however, he wasn't involved with establishing the core government. My apology.

Christopher Columbus never laid a foot on American Soil. He landed on some islands in the Gulf and died believing it was India. He raped and killed most of the population in that area, and those that survived were slaves to his crew and many were sent back to Europe.

 

He was, for the most part, a complete and utter failure.

[Yar-El]

Christopher Columbus never laid a foot on American Soil. He landed on some islands in the Gulf and died believing it was India. He raped and killed most of the population in that area, and those that survived were slaves to his crew and many were sent back to Europe.

 

He was, for the most part, a complete and utter failure.

You know what? I was brought up thinking Columbus did discover America. Your post sparked my curiosity; thus, I did some fact checking. William Bradford, the Puritans, and other settlers found their way to Plymouth, MA. Columbus's contribution was the discovery of a new world (Bahamas); moreover, his actions brought to light a few unknown factors. (1) The World is bigger and round. (2) There was more land to explore in the Atlantic.

 

1776 is when we became a nation. I messed up on the land's discovery and when the US was established. Its been a long, long. long time since I have been in school.

[Rogue Nine]

You know what? I was brought up thinking Columbus did discover America. Your post sparked my curiosity; thus, I did some fact checking. William Bradford, the Puritans, and other settlers found their way to Plymouth, MA.

They, however, did not found this country, so your assertion that they did in your signature is erroneous and misleading.

 

Columbus's contribution was the discovery of a new world (Bahamas); moreover, his actions brought to light a few unknown factors. (1) The World is bigger and round.

Actually, the idea that the world is round had been around long before Columbus. See Eratosthenes.

 

1776 is when we became a nation. I messed up on the land's discovery and when the US was established. Its been a long, long. long time since I have been in school.

Yeah, I know. Especially since they teach you all this in fourth and fifth grade.

[Yar-El]

Yeah, I know. Especially since they teach you all this in fourth and fifth grade.

I was taught about political science and US History; however, I never took a class that fully explained our origins. We covered the Revolutionary War, World War I, World War II, Vietnam, and the events that lead up to 1776. Something must have changed in the educational system. I don't know.

[JediMaster12]

If the founding fathers were so hung up on Christianity why bother with that entire Separation of Church and State thing?

 

Because the Church of England had control of plitics in Britain, if my history is correct, and the foundign fathers didn't want that.

 

Personally I think the un-American term is about as anal as people get over who is patriotic. It is a waste of time unless someone really is guilty of treason but if it is used like a childish insult then we might just call everyone un-American because we don't like them. Hell I might as well, and actually am unofficially, considered un-American by my mother's family because I refuse to call French Fries Freedom Fries. Please...

[mimartin]

Hell I might as well, and actually am unofficially, considered un-American by my mother's family because I refuse to call French Fries Freedom Fries. Please...

 

Same here, but I don't have reason to say French Fries because I don't eat them. I'm considered un-American by my family because I rolled up to the family reunion with the top off blaring the Dixie Chicks - Not Ready to make Nice out of the speakers. This next year I have a choice of a Obama t-shirt or a Dixie Chicks concert t-shirt. Petty, but I like getting under my families skin.

[Q]

They're behind the times, JM12. France's government isn't nearly as anti-American as it used to be.

[JediMaster12]

Nah I was using it as an example because my family is like that; uber conservative and assume their way is right and nobody else's. Makes me suffocate at times. Every day for my granpa it is FOX News... ... and I get the are-you-pagan-remember-your-faith-lecture every other time I have something new that makes much more sense to me.

 

I don't know. It seems we promote this idea of education but when we use it we are called heathens or un-American. Like I said it is a point of ridiculousness considering that half of what I consider is patriotic is considered un-American.

 

mimartin: I voted early this year and voted no on Prop 8 and the family is pro Prop 8. And I make friends with Auslims and Arabs, a big no in the family. I guess I do some things to spite the uber conservatives but hey we have a right to. Doesn't make us any less patriotic than they are.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I can tell you what I think it means to be unAmerican.

 

I think that being American is quite irrelevant because it only means you're a citizen of the state of America. Any idea that we are the greatest nation in the world, that we are noble, divine, or anything like that tarnishes what it means to be American.

 

I am an American, myself, but I actually think less of myself because of it. The United States has become the world's only superpower and we are exploiting our dominance to do whatever is in our best interests, even if it harms those outside our state. The Iraq war may have been the result of a few individuals, but it is just a symptom of a larger conflict... we are starting to believe we have the right to do whatever we want. What's worse is that we are going to far as to make justifications for our actions.

 

What is unAmerican? That's a flawed question. What I would ask is whether being American has influenced us as individuals and how it affects those around us. The answer is that we have become convinced of our own superiority that we believe it is alright for us not to respect the rights of others. This may be stepping over the line, but I think it's more accurate than any belief that we are a great nation... I am ashamed to be an American; so much that I have plans to leave in the near future.

[Tommycat]

I've thought about this question quite a bit. I have to admit that I have fallen for calling someone unAmerican who probably shouldn't have been.

 

Of course there IS such a thing as being unAmerican. Strangely enough being ANTI-American is not a qualifier for that. Protesting the government and voicing your grievances is very much American. Being unAmerican is attempting to hush the voices of your opposition. Being unAmerican is working to subvert the values and principles this nation was founded on "that among these are Life Liberty and the persuit of happiness."

 

In essence I am admitting my fault in being unAmerican at times.

[Jae Onasi]

I am an American, myself, but I actually think less of myself because of it. The United States has become the world's only superpower and we are exploiting our dominance to do whatever is in our best interests, even if it harms those outside our state.

 

Why would you think less of yourself? Some gov't leaders may be exploiting US dominance, but it doesn't mean you are. We still live in a free country. We get to vote on law and representatives, worship (or not worship) freely and openly in whatever church/house of worship we want, and speak our minds on important (and not so important) issues. Just because some of our Presidents have gotten the US into situations we're not proud of doesn't mean you have to be ashamed to be an American.

 

What would make us un-American? Violating a fellow American's rights as listed in the Bill of Rights/Constitution (taking away the 'free speech' rights of a child pornographer would be one of a number of obvious exceptions). Giving high level gov't/military intel to our enemies, or other treasonous acts, would be un-American. Turning on another American and attacking them to aid the enemy would be another un-American act. These are just a few off the top of my head at the moment.

[Yar-El]

I can tell you what I think it means to be unAmerican.

 

I think that being American is quite irrelevant because it only means you're a citizen of the state of America. Any idea that we are the greatest nation in the world, that we are noble, divine, or anything like that tarnishes what it means to be American.

 

I am an American, myself, but I actually think less of myself because of it. The United States has become the world's only superpower and we are exploiting our dominance to do whatever is in our best interests, even if it harms those outside our state. The Iraq war may have been the result of a few individuals, but it is just a symptom of a larger conflict... we are starting to believe we have the right to do whatever we want. What's worse is that we are going to far as to make justifications for our actions.

 

What is unAmerican? That's a flawed question. What I would ask is whether being American has influenced us as individuals and how it affects those around us. The answer is that we have become convinced of our own superiority that we believe it is alright for us not to respect the rights of others. This may be stepping over the line, but I think it's more accurate than any belief that we are a great nation... I am ashamed to be an American; so much that I have plans to leave in the near future.

I would like you to prove everything you have negatively said. I want to hear your proof on - (1) How we do not respect other nations, and I want to know the nations specifically. (2) What do you mean by a larger conflict? Specifics. (3) What do you mean by - ...only means you're a citizen of the state of America...? (4) Examples on how we are exploiting our dominance.

 

I want to hear Darth_Yuthura's answers only please.

[mattig89ch]

I would like you to prove everything you have negatively said. I want to hear your proof on - (1) How we do not respect other nations, and I want to know the nations specifically. (2) What do you mean by a larger conflict? Specifics. (3) What do you mean by - ...only means you're a citizen of the state of America...? (4) Examples on how we are exploiting our dominance.

 

I want to hear Darth_Yuthura's answers only please.

 

I would like to hear this answered as well.

[Darth_Yuthura]

The war in Iraq should be proof enough of what I said. Over 100,000 innocent Iraqi citizens have been killed because of our actions in their sovereign state. A nation that had never committed an overt act against the US was invaded. Every death that came about because of that war was because of us, the US.

 

NEVER would such an act have been allowed if the USSR had still been in existence. On Christmas of 1991, the world as we knew it changed forever. As much as we hated the Soviet Union, they provided the counter balance that we desperately need.

 

By invading Iraq, we essentially declared that we believed it was within our rights to murder citizens of other states if we could benefit from their suffering. That's not a little harsh, it's a fact that we NEVER address the lives lost on the Iraqi's side of the conflict.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I like to think of it as the US taking over the Soviets' invasion responsibilities.

 

 

inafterclose

 

[Darth Avlectus]

Ok, so i've been following American Politics and news broadcasts for some time now, and I've noticed more and more that certain outlets, or people like to throw around the term 'Un-American'.

 

Now, as a Brit, it's pretty hard to understand - what defines this? And what makes one 'Un-American'? Or is it just a political insult used by those who wish to disparage another's patriotism and beliefs?

 

This concept of 'Un-American'ness is very strange to many outside of the US, and I'm seeking some input from anyone, Americans or not (maybe fellow foreigners also have similar questions).

 

I'd like to ask that people keep thoughts and opinions regarding the ongoing elections out of this discussion - i'm not interested in hearing accusations against the respective candidates here.

 

*Move this to the political discussion if it is felt that it will be better answered there - I didn't think it was necessarily a political topic.

 

THANK YOU--I was getting *SO* sick of political-elect talk.

 

My own opinions.

1) using America's own freedom of speech to bash it--especially college professors who speak out against our 1st amendment.

Mandating government controls over it.

CENSORSHIP DOES NOT EQUAL DECENCY STANDARDS.

For example, I think moderators like Jae Onasi do a fine job of the decency sort of neatening up after clumbsy posts... like mine (though you remind me of general mother figures, Jae!). Censorship, well, is banning expression because it "offends" a certain group. I don't care how much you despise it, if it's anything short of defamatory, slandering sentiment, you leave it alone.

 

2) calling any talk you disagree with "hate speech" or implying racism (or taint thereof) to certain actions or inactions. What a cop out. That's like calling "hold" whenever pressed in a fencing match or "time" when losing a match or failing a test in kendo.

 

3) As someone who is on a level of owner/manager of family business (mom and pop), I see things differently than workers. I RESENT being called fascist.

 

4) LACK of work ethic. Does nobody get up to change the channel anymore?

Is it so unheard of to go out and clean your yard? Clear snow?

Hate to admit it, but, that is the reason so many illegals are allowed here. I wanted something, I WORKED for it, unlike so many of my friends: spoiled. So many lazy but able bodied adults sitting around. Though I would agree there is business greed largely involved which leads me to my next one. Immigrants (LEGAL citizens) I have less problems with, but still, we could do better.

 

5) Poisoning the honor of free market/capitalism. "The hyper-greed standards". (paraphrased Granny Smith)

Someone in my own town was thrown in jail for evading taxes by hiring illegals. The whole benefits thing is debatable with me, BUT the unethical business practices are not. Undercutting and running at a loss to kill competition. SHAME! Also, what one says is not what one means or does. Shifting blame to another when the fault and responsibility is ONE's OWN. Taking advantage of uneven play fields to monopolize a market. Short sidedness to make MONEY MONEY MONEY! The free market is not free from honor! The self-sustaining individual able to support him/her own self and family.

 

6) Attacking and destroying the traditional family. I don't care what anyone says--I have yet to see any credible evidence that the functional family is NOT a building block of our society. I'd like to go more into it, but those issues are a bit touchy and perhaps inappropriate here.

 

7) OK, saying we "deserved" 9/11, or legitimizing violent behaviors by "racial karmah". Cop outs. The crusades happened long before USA was born. Not everybody descended from slaveholders either--many immigrated (not illegaly migrated) here. (Though I'm sure some slipped through the cracks!)

 

8) Political correctness stereotyping. Stalin himslef invented the term. It oversimplifies things, paints everyone in a group one stripe all while refusing to recognizing there can be differences WITHIN a group. Assuming just because a so-called "Republican" or "Democrat" is in office that Conservatives and Liberals (respectively) have this unyielding collective agreement with the leader.

 

If you wish to debate me at length, PM me.

[jonathan7]

7) OK, saying we "deserved" 9/11, or legitimizing violent behaviors by "racial karmah". Cop outs. The crusades happened long before USA was born. Not everybody descended from slaveholders either--many immigrated (not illegaly migrated) here. (Though I'm sure some slipped through the cracks!)

 

There is a difference between saying America deserved 9/11 and admitting that (bad) foreign policy created antipathy towards the US.

[Darth Avlectus]

There is a difference between saying America deserved 9/11 and admitting that (bad) foreign policy created antipathy towards the US.

 

 

Good point.

 

Which leads me to sometihng else I wanted to point out in general: As an independent with conservative values (largely but not completely), I am appaled at the lack of leadership republicans have shown.

 

I'm not entirely convinced it's the result of boil-over from previous actions. However, I'll let it rest at that since I'm not entirely sure it isn't either.

Say whatever you will about that. I am not saving face for them, nor am I jumping on the prosecution bandwagon.

 

EDIT--my bad, the rest of that went somewhere else--OR SO I meant. Carry on!

[El Sitherino]

So what I've gathered from this thread is people are unamerican if they: eat onions, hate jesus, talk about election politics, anything involving Stalin, don't talk about election politics, discuss anything involving 9/11 without screaming "USA! USA!", are lazy bums, bums, or minimum wage workers.

 

[CommanderQ]

Oh boy....I'm not even sure if that's the end of the list of so-called reasons of Un-Americanism... I wonder if this thread accomplished much in the way of finding Un-Americans. Strange....

[Astor]

I wonder if this thread accomplished much in the way of finding Un-Americans.

 

That wasn't my intent. I was simply trying to find out exactly what is defined as 'un-american' - as a foreigner, i'm often confused by the statement - it's not clearly defined.

[jonathan7]

That wasn't my intent. I was simply trying to find out exactly what is defined as 'un-american' - as a foreigner, i'm often confused by the statement - it's not clearly defined.

 

Heres the answer;

 

In my experience, "unamerican" is universally used by people who have poor arguments against what they're trying to disparage. If someone is a traitor, say he is a traitor. If someone is a liar, say he is a liar, etc. But if someone says that another person is unamerican, I am likely to start ignoring them immediately after because they have nothing to say that's worth my time.

[CommanderQ]

Oh, sorry about the misunderstanding there I meant no offense if any was taken, but some of the reasons given aren't always the best definitions, a bum is not American, a person who speaks about the election politics isn't American. Some of these ideas aren't exactly Un-American, lest it is confusing...

 

What do you think it is to be Un-American, from your point-of-view?